About Detect Magic (FH)

[Crypt]

As campaign ground rules let's say that:

- the more powerfull an item or character (...) is, the easier is to detect its magic.

- but in the other hand some items or characters could be stealthy vs detect magic.

 

How would you rule it ?

 

 

I've thought about something like:

 

- for items: their Active Points/10 act as a bonus to the PER roll (eg AP 60 => PER+6.) For character use the stronger (or the average ?) spell he knows in order to compute the PER bonus. (still Active Points/10)

 

- if the item or character has Power Defense it/he may automatically have some levels of Stealth (Only VS Detect Magic.) For instance Power Defense 10 could give a -5 malus to the PER roll.

 

- about spells: it could be possible to detect the "signature" of a spell which has been cast but is no longer in effect. Maybe a malus of -1 to the PER roll per Time step ? (it would stack to the AP/10 bonus so a powerfull spell would keep being detectable for a longer time)

 

What is your opinion ?

 

EDIT: see this post :

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1845041&postcount=19

[Killer Shrike]

Re: About Detect Magic (FH)

 

Its a slippery slope.

 

How I do it is Magic is detectable based upon the sense a particular Detect Magic is associated with; if Detect Magic is sight based then the character can detect magic within the area that they can normally see, so forth.

 

If the Detect is bought as a separate sense, then the modifiers purchased for the sense will dictate the range at which it works.

 

 

If a spell has taken the "Visible / Noisy" limitation it is more noticeable; this translates into a PER bonus to sense it, which offsets penalties including Range with the effect that it is detectable from further away than it normally would be -- like a magical explosion or equivalent.

 

Spells that want to cloak themselves use IPE vs Mystic Senses or full IPE.

 

If an effect is normally IPE but is detectable by Mystic Senses then it buys enough IPE to cover two senses (sight and hearing typically) and leaves the third sense open, defined as Mystic Senses.

 

 

Works within the framework of the rules, no extra House Ruling necessary.

[Crypt]

Re: About Detect Magic (FH)

 

Its a slippery slope.

 

How I do it is Magic is detectable based upon the sense a particular Detect Magic is associated with; if Detect Magic is sight based then the character can detect magic within the area that they can normally see, so forth.

 

If the Detect is bought as a separate sense, then the modifiers purchased for the sense will dictate the range at which it works.

 

 

If a spell has taken the "Visible / Noisy" limitation it is more noticeable; this translates into a PER bonus to sense it, which offsets penalties including Range with the effect that it is detectable from further away than it normally would be -- like a magical explosion or equivalent.

 

Spells that want to cloak themselves use IPE vs Mystic Senses or full IPE.

 

If an effect is normally IPE but is detectable by Mystic Senses then it buys enough IPE to cover two senses (sight and hearing typically) and leaves the third sense open, defined as Mystic Senses.

 

 

Works within the framework of the rules, no extra House Ruling necessary.

 

 

maybe i'm wrong but it doesnt seem to satisfy the following needs:

 

1 - the more powerfull an item or character (...edit: or spell) is, the easier is to detect its magic.

 

2 - but in the other hand some items or characters could be stealthy vs detect magic.

 

and i also add this:

 

3 - the older a spell has been cast (but no longer in effect) the harder is to detect his residual signature.

None of this 3 campaign "laws" give absolute effect.

Magic may be extremely stealthy but never fully indetectable.

 

 

 

Spells that want to cloak themselves use IPE vs Mystic Senses or full IPE.

 

I think there is a confusion.

I do not speak about the effects (eg. a staff firing a lighting bolt or you are invisible when you put on this ring), i speak about the magical "capacity" (eg. the staff is magical, the staff is able to fire a lighting bolt or this is a ring of invisibility. Also see the Detect Magic chapter in Fantasy Hero.)

An IPE only covers the effect and is absolute so it does not cover the campaign laws i spoke about.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: About Detect Magic (FH)

 

The GM can impose whatever modifiers they like to PER rolls.

 

Detect Magic is, at root, a PER roll.

 

If you want to grant bonuses to perceive magic that is more powerful then you are free to do so.

 

If you want to grant penalties to perceive magic based on any factor including time elapsed you are free to do so.

 

 

If you want magic to be able to "hide" itself, then IPE is available. If you prefer a less absolute version then there is a precedent in place for PER modifiers to be bought as an Adder following the CE and Image model.

 

If you want magic to be able to be more detectable on a case by case basis there is a precedent in place for that using the Visible / Noisy limitation.

 

 

 

The reason why trying to back this in / reverse engineer it into the existing system is a "slippery slope", as I mentioned previously, is because you are equating a measure of effect to a degree of detectability but this does not always make sense.

 

Some powers are specifically oriented around sensory deception for instance, and the more powerful the effect the more visible it becomes by your system unless more points are spent specifically to mask it.

 

Furthermore, Active Points don't only measure raw power; they measure mechanical advantage; thus a 2d6 RKA has 30 AP while a 1d6 RKA with 0 END, No Range Modifier, and AoE: 1 Hex Accurate has 37.5 AP -- less raw potency, more mechanical leverage -- but why would it be more detectable than the 2d6 stripped down version which is technically the more potent of the two?

 

Also, from an accounting stand point, it adds an extra layer of complexity over the top of your magic effects which must be taken into account in the design of every spell, every magic power, every item. It's cruft; extra mechanical friction / overhead.

 

The better approach in my experience when trying to implement a broad concept like this is to come up with a meta system utilizing the existing rules framework which requires no extra design weight. In this particular case, the rules cover this very well in my opinion. But, YMMV.

[Crypt]

Re: About Detect Magic (FH)

 

utilizing the existing rules framework which requires no extra design weight.

 

so don't you think that a limited form of Concealment (*) would work better than an Adder taken from CE or Image ?

 

(*) errata : i'd better say "Concealment" instead of "Stealth" because this is about the capacity or the nature, not the effect.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: About Detect Magic (FH)

 

so don't you think that a limited form of Concealment (*) would work better than an Adder taken from CE or Image ?

 

(*) errata : i'd better say "Concealment" instead of "Stealth" because this is about the capacity or the nature, not the effect.

 

No, I don't think that. An adder on the power itself is much cleaner and accurate. A linked Concealment Skill is messier and opens the door for yet more rules oddness.

 

Why would the detectability be variable? Also, Skills associated w/ Powers traditionally take a penalty equal to the AP/10 of the power. What happens if the Conceal roll fails; does it make the power more noticeable -- so in effect by trying to make it less noticeable it backfires and makes it more noticeable? If not, then what does failure represent -- just a 0 PER mod? Do you make the Conceal roll when a magic effect is used and write down to set a static penalty, or do you have to roll it each time someone tries to detect against it? Etc.

 

Its a silly amount of overhead and questions that need to be resolved and extra tracking for very little if any benefit to the playability of the game or in game experience. It's a very intrusive meta system.

 

If you are set on going down this path (which I wouldn't recommend in the first place), then the adder approach at least is just a flat PER penalty clearly annotated and tracked on the effect itself. As an adder, its also affected by modifiers on the base effect, so that its harder to hide high-AP effects and easier to hide limited effects (as measured by the cost).

[Crypt]

Re: About Detect Magic (FH)

 

No' date=' I don't think that. An adder on the power itself is much cleaner and accurate. A linked Concealment Skill is messier and opens the door for yet more rules oddness.[/quote']

 

What happens if the Conceal roll fails;

 

No, no, no, there is no concealment roll here.

I actually thought about Concealment skill levels used as an adder =

Concealment (Only vs Detect Magic; -1/2): 2 points to cancel the PER bonus coming from AP; 1 points per -1 PER thereafter.

 

So, for instance, a Ring of Invisibility (45 AP, cf p192) :

- without concealment adder: give a +4 to Detect Magic PER rolls

- with a 3 points Concealment adder it would give a -1 penalty instead of +4.

 

 

No imagine a magical thief use Teleportation (82 AP, the one page 233) to escape the place of his crime.

One day latter a mage comes to the place, at less than 5 " from the place the spell were cast and tries a Detect Magic.

Without a concealment adder the mage the mage has a +8 bonus (from the teleportation AP) and a -11 penalty (one day) = - 3 to his PER roll.

If the teleportation spell of the thief had for instance a 2 pts concealment adder then the +8 bonus is cancelled and the total modifier to the mage PER is -11.

 

If the mage succeeds his PER roll he knows that a spell has been cast here. The amount of information depends on his Detect Magic spell (discriminatory, analyse, ....) With discriminatory he may know that a teleportation spell had been cast 1 day ago. With analyse he may know what was the maximum distance of the teleportation spell.....

 

If he fails his PER roll then he doesn't detect the spell signature.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: About Detect Magic (FH)

 

A two point adder cancels a +8 bonus? That sounds unbalanced.

[Utech]

Re: About Detect Magic (FH)

 

Near as I can tell, you're just making Detect Magic with the Tracking Sense Modifier. Spells with a higher active point cost "stink more" than those with lower active point cost. The "stink" of spells dissipates over time.

 

You need to come up with methods to

• dissipate more quickly,
  
• reduce, and/or
  
• mask
  

the stink of spells.

 

You could dissipate the stink of your spells more quickly with environmental factors. Think up magical equivalents of rain, running water, a good wash with soap, etc.

 

You could reduce the stink of your spells by changing the way they are performed. You might allow this with an adder, Skill Roll, and/or Extra Time. Base cost on Invisible Power Effects -- but don't be slave to that cost.

 

You could mask the stink of your spells by casting lots of other spells, casting your spell where lots of other people have cast spells, or by spicing up your spells with extras (adder, Skill Roll, and/or Extra Time).

 

Finally, you might consider what it would take to disguise your spell as something else. The adder, Skill Roll (acting?), and/or Extra Time thoughts would work well here, too. Fooling someone who tries to detect magic on you could give you quite a surprise bonus or otherwise lead the plot in interesting directions.

[Crypt]

Re: About Detect Magic (FH)

 

A two point adder cancels a +8 bonus? That sounds unbalanced.

 

yes, maybe.

Another possibility, which would be more interesting for my players, would be a Magical Concealment Skill instead of an adder.

Eg.

The spell gives +8 PER because of his AP.

The character succeeds a MCS roll by a 3 margin. (this roll is not modified by the AP/10 penalty)

Then the spell only gives +5 PER.

 

Such a skill (wich can be used for several spells, maybe one skill per school of magic, etc.) would be cheaper than an adder, that's why the base AP modifier is not cancelled here.

 

With the adder version i think it would be too expensive, not interesting enough, if the base AP modifier is not cancelled by the very first 2 points.

 

 

Near as I can tell, you're just making Detect Magic with the Tracking Sense Modifier

 

hmm, yes, maybe i should only allow this kind of action if the character has taken this modifier.

 

 

 

You could mask the stink of your spells by casting lots of other spells, casting your spell where lots of other people have cast spells, or by spicing up your spells with extras (adder, Skill Roll, and/or Extra Time).

 

It makes me think about another thing = How to build a spell of Signature Concealment ? (a spell which dissipates residual magic in an area)

With a CE ?

[bigbywolfe]

Re: About Detect Magic (FH)

 

Images to Unusual Sense Group?

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: About Detect Magic (FH)

 

Maybe I am wrong here, but it sounds like you want this flavor for spells and you just need some kind of framework to guide the PER modifiers. I think this is mostly a GM call depending on the situation, similar to saying that it is easier to hear a gunshot than a bow being fired, even if the RKA damage is the same.

 

So I would suggest this. High active point spells generally give a bonus to the PER roll, but not necessarily +1 per 10 AP; look over the suggested PER modifiers table in the rulebook to give you a guideline on noisy vs. quiet effects and how much of a PER modifier they might give. For any given situation, just call it. In my mind, this is just a way to give the players a handle on how powerful a magic they are dealing with, so decribe the magic as such and grant bonuses or penalties accordingly.

 

As for magic "residue", I think for that to work properly you are going to have to add the Tracking adder to the Detect. Then you can use tracking rules, where penalties are accrued the further you get down the time chart.

 

If you want a spell to be inherently quiet, buy an adder to impose PER penalties for detection, or buy it Invisible if it is supposed to be completely indetectable. To keep people from seeing where the magic came from, as opposed to detecting the magic itself, that is if a wizard is just trying to be inconspicuous while casting his spell, have him make a Stealth, Acting, Sleight of Hand, or Concealment role (as appropriate), modified the the active points and nature of the spell to suit.

[Crypt]

Re: About Detect Magic (FH)

 

buy an adder to impose PER penalties for detection

 

any suggestion about the cost ?

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: About Detect Magic (FH)

 

The cost for PER penalties? There is an optional rule under Penalty skill levels that allows you to apply a negative modifier to someone else's roll I believe, kind of like buying a PSL in reverse. I would probably start there, although you might just make it the same cost as increasing the PER modifier per the Images power (it might be the same as the PSL even, I can't remember).

[Ternaugh]

Re: About Detect Magic (FH)

 

any suggestion about the cost ?

 

I'd base it on the pricing of either Change Environment or Images. Figure +3 Points per -1 PER (perhaps, with CE's 5 Points for the first -1 PER).

 

As a suggestion under this system, I'd probably assume that a Spell had a "Brightness Rating" of Active Points/10 (with "Noisy" Spells having a BR or Active Points/5), and that the CE counts toward that. Figure that the "Afterimage" fades at a rate consistent with each step down on the Time Chart.

 

So, a 2d6 RKA Lightning Bolt Spell (30 Active) would have BR=+3 PER. The Afterimage would fade to +0 PER in about 5 minutes (though it could still be detected after that, at increasing penalties).

Making the spell harder to discern, we add CE -4 PER (14 Active) to the spell. This gives our new Spell a BR= +0 PER, and makes it a little harder to detect during casting (though most Mages should be able to detect it, on average). The Afterimage would count down from there, with it becoming difficult to note the spell's casting after only a few minutes.

 

I'd figure that magic items would have their BR calculated in a similar manner, though they probably wouldn't suffer the Afterimage fade so long as their magic was still intact.

 

JoeG

[Crypt]

Re: About Detect Magic (FH)

 

The cost for PER penalties? There is an optional rule under Penalty skill levels that allows you to apply a negative modifier to someone else's roll I believe, kind of like buying a PSL in reverse. I would probably start there, although you might just make it the same cost as increasing the PER modifier per the Images power (it might be the same as the PSL even, I can't remember).

 

the example in the book is : 3 points for a -1 OCV

 

 

I'd base it on the pricing of either Change Environment or Images. Figure +3 Points per -1 PER (perhaps, with CE's 5 Points for the first -1 PER).

 

then we probably get something similar to what i've previously proposed (except for the "2pts to cancel" part) =

 

Concealment skill levels used as an adder =

Concealment (Only vs Detect Magic; -1/2): 2 points to cancel the PER bonus coming from AP; 1 points per -1 PER thereafter.

 

So, for instance, a Ring of Invisibility (45 AP, cf p192) :

- without concealment adder: give a +4 to Detect Magic PER rolls

- with a 3 points Concealment adder it would give a -1 penalty instead of +4.

 

 

Saying this is a Concealment Level or a PER penalty is quite the same.

 

Let's ignore the "2pts to cancel" part.

 

We get:

1 point adder per -1 PER because of the limitation (only vs Detect Magic; 1/2.)

 

+1 level of standard skill cost 2 pts.

With the 1/2 limitation it becomes 1 level per point.

 

This is the same cost as =

+1 level of Enhanced sense with a single sense cost 1 point.

 

So, in my opinion the adder should cost 1 point per -1 PER.

 

Do you agree with this cost ?

[Ternaugh]

Re: About Detect Magic (FH)

 

the example in the book is : 3 points for a -1 OCV

 

 

 

 

then we probably get something similar to what i've previously proposed (except for the "2pts to cancel" part) =

 

 

 

 

Saying this is a Concealment Level or a PER penalty is quite the same.

 

Let's ignore the "2pts to cancel" part.

 

We get:

1 point adder per -1 PER because of the limitation (only vs Detect Magic; 1/2.)

 

+1 level of standard skill cost 2 pts.

With the 1/2 limitation it becomes 1 level per point.

 

This is the same cost as =

+1 level of Enhanced sense with a single sense cost 1 point.

 

So, in my opinion the adder should cost 1 point per -1 PER.

 

Do you agree with this cost ?

 

Well, technically, 3 point skill levels are the smallest that can have advantages and limitations applied. I'd also recommend waiting until you have the total limitations to apply (that is, all relevant limitations on the spell), rather than applying it in advance.

 

So, let's assume our 2d6 Lightning Bolt has a -4 PER for the purposes of magic detection. Let's also assume that it requires Gestures (-1/4), Incantation (-1/4), and Requires a Magic Skill Roll (-1/2).

 

We'd have an Active Cost of the RKA of 30, with a Real Cost of 30/(1+1)=15.

The -4 PER has an Active Cost of 12, with a Real Cost of 12/(1+1.5)=5. This includes your -1/2 limitation.

Total Real Cost of the Spell would be 20 points.

 

JoeG

Edit: Using an Adder of 2 Points per -1 PER would be close enough (RC of 19 in my example), though I'd probably do it the "long way" if I were implementing this.

[Crypt]

Re: About Detect Magic (FH)

 

just some tests:

 

 

- Lightning Bolt RKA 2d

base: 30

 

- Concealment adder -4 PER (4pts; only vs Detect Magic) (= it cancels the +4 PER from APs counted without this adder)

 

- Indirect (+1/4)

 

active points: 37 without the concealment adder. 42 with it.

(or 47 if the adder costs 2/-1 PER)

 

Gestures (-1/4)

Incantation (-1/4)

Requires a Magic Skill Roll (-1/2)

Only works under an open sky (-1/2)

 

real cost: 17

(or 19 if the adder costs 2/-1 PER)

 

 

 

 

 

- Avanced Teleportation (H5R p233) 20"

base: 40

 

- Concealment adder -8 PER (8pts; only vs Detect Magic) (= it cancels the +8 PER from APs counted without this adder)

 

- No relative velocity (+10)

 

- Position shift (+5)

 

 

- Armor piercing (+1/2)

 

active points: 82 without the concealment adder. 94 with it.

(or 106 if the adder costs 2/-1 PER)

 

Gestures (-1/4)

Incantation (-1/4)

Requires a Magic Skill Roll (-1/2)

 

real cost: 47

(or 53 if the adder costs 2/-1 PER)

 

 

Some of the reasons i tend to prefer a 1 pt/-1 PER instead of a 2 pt/-1 PER =

- its uses are limited to very specific situations (magical investigations.)

- because a high level's signature is more "odorous" than a low one it requires more concealment adder points to counter its "smell."

So a very powerfull residual magic would need a lot of conc.adder pts to be hidden.

 

but maybe those reasons are bad. (?)

[Crypt]

Re: About Detect Magic (FH)

 

Time to clarify and add new needs:

 

- This is not about effects (IPE do not applies here), this is about potential or residual magic.

 

- No absolute.

 

 

1 - the more powerfull an item, a character, or a spell is, the easier is to detect its magic (potential or residual.)

Proposition: +1PER/10 Active points

For a character use his average spells AP.

 

2 - the older a spell has been cast (but no longer in effect) the harder is to detect his residual signature.

Proposition:

- Detect Magic needs Tracking in order to detect such a trace.

- -1PER/Standard Time Step or use the Tracking Chart from Ultimate Skill.

 

3 (the delicate part)- but a spell, an item or a character may be concealed to Detect Magic =

 

3.1

-

(permanent)

an item may be built to be concealed to Detect Magic

Proposition: 1pt adder / -1 PER

3.2

-

(""permanent"")

a spell may be built to be concealed to Detect Magic

Proposition: 1pt adder / -1 PER

3.3

-

(permanent)

a talent may gives the character permanent concealment to Detect Magic. It has no effect on items he creates nor spells he cast. It only affects the magic which radiates from himself.

Proposition: 1pt / -1 PER ?

 

3.4

-

(on the fly)

a character may cast a spell to conceal him (

potential

), a item (

potential

) or an area (where a spell has been cast ;

residual

) to Detect Magic.

Only the area cleaning (

residual

) could be Permanent.

The character version (

potential

) should be Constant.

The item version (

potential

) should be Independant or Constant.

 

4. - An item, character or spell may be stinky (noisy.)

 

5 EDIT: I think that the final mechanisms of concealment could also be used for defenses vs magical clairsentience. This is not the same as Detect Magic but the concealment PER mods could work the same. An invisibility (sight group) with a (only vs clairsentience) limitation could be used but it would be an absolute power. So the question remains the same => what about PER penalties ? An intermediate possibility could be to use Armor Piercing and Hardened modifiers.

 

 

EDIT: Finally i think i should use a Change Environnement, with x penalties to PER (the Detect Magic "sense") at 2 pts, with or without the long lasting mod, with or without range, linked to an item's powers, used as a spell, bought as a talent, etc.....

 

Before ruling chapter 3 do you think those general "laws" are ok ?

[Sean Waters]

Re: About Detect Magic (FH)

 

Big stuff is easier to see: a 1/2 hex object is +0, a full hex object is +2, a 2 hex object is +4 etc.

 

You could equate (if you like) active points with size.

 

Pick a base value of points in a magic spell that equates to +0, and each doubling adds +2 to your PER roll. You might base that on an arbitrary value (10 points?) or on the lowest spell cost in your campaign.

 

That is a house rule of course, as there are no actual rules covering it, but is seems in keeping with the spirit of the system.

 

I'd also house rule for continuous effects that they only register 'full' when cast - but half points (-2) for the continuing effect.

 

Lovely.

 

As for concealment, I would allow you to take a -1 on your magic skill roll when casting the spell to halve the effective active points of the power for detect purposes.

 

So you take -4 on your cast roll and the power is at -8 to detect (from whatever the starting point is)

 

Sounds right.

[Crypt]

Re: About Detect Magic (FH)

 

Finally i think i should use a Change Environnement, with x penalties to PER (the Detect Magic "sense") at 2 pts, with or without the long lasting mod, with or without range, linked to an item's powers, used as a spell, bought as a talent, etc.....

 

(The same thing would apply to a concealment VS clairsentience (limited to).

One of my players regularly uses a Retrocognition spell and i'd like some of my NPCs being able to hide themself from this kind of spell.)

 

Here the only problem i see is that at some point, by buying enough PER modifiers,the CE may become more expensive than an equivalent Invisibility power which is definitely more efficient.

[Eosin]

Re: About Detect Magic (FH)

 

Here is a way that it could be done.

 

During item/spell creation the DM assigns each item or effect a quality.

 

Bright/Loud: +1 PER for each 5 AP

Normal: +1 PER for each 10 AP

Quiet/Subdued: +1 PER for each 20 AP

Hidden: -2 PER (no AP penalty)

Cloaked: Invisibility to mystic senses with a fringe (bought as normal or just considered a special effect of using certain rare and expensive components).

 

If the wizard can alter the visibility of his/her spells then they receive a penalty to the spell roll. Quiet gets -2 and Bright gets a bonus (like for extra time or quality components). Hidden takes extra time and get a -4 to the RSR.

 

I'd consider these campaign rules rather trying to tack them into each build.

[Crypt]

Re: About Detect Magic (FH)

 

Here is a way that it could be done.

 

During item/spell creation the DM assigns each item or effect a quality.

 

Bright/Loud: +1 PER for each 5 AP

Normal: +1 PER for each 10 AP

Quiet/Subdued: +1 PER for each 20 AP

Hidden: -2 PER (no AP penalty)

Cloaked: Invisibility to mystic senses with a fringe (bought as normal or just considered a special effect of using certain rare and expensive components).

 

If the wizard can alter the visibility of his/her spells then they receive a penalty to the spell roll. Quiet gets -2 and Bright gets a bonus (like for extra time or quality components). Hidden takes extra time and get a -4 to the RSR.

 

I'd consider these campaign rules rather trying to tack them into each build.

 

 

Interesting. (even if at first i will try to use the standard rules as possible)

 

Another thing = the magical stink could be explosive ()

The more distant the source, the weaker the PER bonus which comes from AP.

[Ternaugh]

Re: About Detect Magic (FH)

 

Interesting. (even if at first i will try to use the standard rules as possible)

 

Another thing = the magical stink could be explosive ()

The more distant the source, the weaker the PER bonus which comes from AP.

 

I would figure that the magical stink would be subject to range penalties for detection, though you could have the magic drop off faster or slower, depending on how your world works.

 

JoeG

[Eosin]

Re: About Detect Magic (FH)

 

Interesting. (even if at first i will try to use the standard rules as possible)

 

Campaign rules for fantasy hero are a time honored tradition and you'll find even DOJ makes rules to tailor their spell systems in their fantasy products [Turakurian Age & Valdorian Age]. I'd suggest keeping the KISS mantra in mind. So whatever works easiest for you is what I'd go with.