Regeneration: What am I missing?

[Pattern Ghost]

OK, so I wanted to give a brick I made 1 BODY/Turn Regen. I looked it up in my 5th Edition (not revised) and this is what I got:

 

Regeneration: BODY 1d6 (standard effect: 3 points), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (20 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12), -1 1/4), Self Only (-1/2)

 

Real cost came to 7 pts.

 

Now I'm sure that when 5th came out, the cost was at 8pts for 1 Body of Regen Healing. I've still got the same 5th book. Using the suggested modifiers, I only get 7 pts real cost.

 

I'm clearly missing something, or was missing something to start with. What's up with this build?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Regeneration: What am I missing?

 

As memory serves, its 7.something RC, rounded in the character's favor. As you add effect and rounding points are hit the RC gets a little irregular.

 

Also, if using HD, there is a specific Extra Time (Regeneration) Limitation that will trigger the proper annotation.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Regeneration: What am I missing?

 

Odd, I could have sworn back when 5th came out, it was at 8. Oh well, I defer to your vast system knowledge. Thanks!

[jtelson]

Re: Regeneration: What am I missing?

 

Don't have the book handy but doesn't continuous need to be in there somewhere, or trigger, something where you don't need to activate it?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Regeneration: What am I missing?

 

from 5er page 185:

 

Using Healing constitutes an Attack Action and requires an Attack Roll (the Regeneration option listed below requires neither of these things).

 

The Continuous Advantage just allows a character to use an Attack Power on a continuing basis without having to make a new Attack Roll every Phase against the same target.

 

18 5er Lycanthropic Regeneration: Healing 3 BODY, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (60 Active Points); Extra Time (Regeneration-Only) 1 Turn (Post-Segment 12) (-1 1/4), Does Not Work On Some Damage Silver Weapons (-1/2), Self Only (-1/2)

[Notes: This example is from the sidebar of 5er page 186.] - END=0

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Regeneration: What am I missing?

 

14 Regeneration - Basic book method: Healing 2 BODY, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (40 Active Points); Extra Time (Regeneration-Only) 1 Turn (Post-Segment 12);(5e, pg 120; 5er, pg 187) This Modifier is only intended for use on Healing purchased as Regeneration. For other forms of Healing, use the standard Extra Time Modifier found in the Limitations list (This modifier changes the display from the "Healing BODY xd6" to "Healing X BODY"); (-1 1/4), Self Only (-1/2)

[Notes: 2 Body is the minimum needed to overcome the additional 1 Body per Turn damage taken when the bleeding rules are used.] - END=0

 

14 Regeneration - alternative construction method: Healing BODY 1d6+1 (standard effect: 4 points), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Decreased Re-use Duration (1 Turn;(5er, page 188) This Advantage allows a character to apply Healing more than once a day; +1 1/2) (45 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12),(5er, page 290-291) A Power with this Limitation takes longer than usual to activate and/or use; -1 1/4), Self Only (-1/2), Always On (-1/2)

[Notes: This functions exactly like the example above 'as is'. It can also easily be modified to affect multiple abilities (like BODY & STUN together) by using the Variable Effect Advantage (unlike the book recommended method). I think 'Always On' is an appropriate Limitation in most circumstances. Sci-Fi Channel had a short lived series called 'Painkiller Jane' who had a Regeneration ability that she could consciously turn OFF (unlike Wolverine) and this was a key point in one episode. ] - END=0

[Sean Waters]

Re: Regeneration: What am I missing?

 

OK, so I wanted to give a brick I made 1 BODY/Turn Regen. I looked it up in my 5th Edition (not revised) and this is what I got:

 

Regeneration: BODY 1d6 (standard effect: 3 points), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (20 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12), -1 1/4), Self Only (-1/2)

 

Real cost came to 7 pts.

 

Now I'm sure that when 5th came out, the cost was at 8pts for 1 Body of Regen Healing. I've still got the same 5th book. Using the suggested modifiers, I only get 7 pts real cost.

 

I'm clearly missing something, or was missing something to start with. What's up with this build?

 

You are not missing anything - in 5th, 'Extra Time (1 turn)' is listed as a -1 limitation under the healing section rather than -1 1/4 that is listed under the 'Extra Time' power modifier. That makes the cost 8, rather than 7.

 

The fact that the healing power can not be used more frequently than once per turn on any given target under any circumstances*, you may wisely choose to turn a blind eye to, as that would mean that the power modifier has no actual effect, and so is worth -0, at best.

 

 

 

*Even if built with decreased re-use duration, which it is not.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Regeneration: What am I missing?

 

Don't have the book handy but doesn't continuous need to be in there somewhere' date=' or trigger, something where you don't need to activate it?[/quote']

 

 

Best not to get me started.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Regeneration: What am I missing?

 

One amusing little power to chuck into your multipower is this:

 

Regeneration Killer

Dispel Regeneration 2d6 (standard effect: 6 points), Costs END Only To Activate (+1/4), Cumulative (+1/2), Uncontrolled (Dispel stopped by taking a full phase recovery; +1/2), Continuous (+1) (19 Active Points)

 

It might be a virus that affects the target's cell's ability to rapidly recover, or maybe just an anti-coagulant. Within 4 phases it should have turned off normal 1 point regeneration, and, because it takes a full turn to re-start AND needs to be activated (so it won't turn on if you are unconscious with a 'normal' build), it stops the target regenerating, making them a much easier kill. Spray it on downed enemies to stop them bouncing back.

 

If you take a full phase recovery to concentrate your healing powers you can flush it from your system.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Regeneration: What am I missing?

 

You are not missing anything - in 5th, 'Extra Time (1 turn)' is listed as a -1 limitation under the healing section rather than -1 1/4 that is listed under the 'Extra Time' power modifier. That makes the cost 8, rather than 7.

 

The fact that the healing power can not be used more frequently than once per turn on any given target under any circumstances*, you may wisely choose to turn a blind eye to, as that would mean that the power modifier has no actual effect, and so is worth -0, at best.

 

 

 

*Even if built with decreased re-use duration, which it is not.

 

Ah, OK, then, that explains the discrepancy.

 

Sheesh, wasn't 10 per Body much simpler? (And more in line with the usefulness of the power...)

[lemming]

Re: Regeneration: What am I missing?

 

Ah, OK, then, that explains the discrepancy.

 

Sheesh, wasn't 10 per Body much simpler? (And more in line with the usefulness of the power...)

 

Yes. This and Instant Change were two of my pet peeves, but easily ignored.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Regeneration: What am I missing?

 

...

The fact that the healing power can not be used more frequently than once per turn on any given target under any circumstances...

 

Wrong.

 

Healing/Regeneration can be built with the Trigger Advantage to then allow it to respond to each and every wound separately.

 

Hideously complex to use and track but a very possible circumstance.

[Tachyon]

Re: Regeneration: What am I missing?

 

Wrong.

 

Healing/Regeneration can be built with the Trigger Advantage to then allow it to respond to each and every wound separately.

 

Hideously complex to use and track but a very possible circumstance.

I think that Absorption (Physical and Energy to BODY) with modifiers: Persistent, Healing Effect, Always On would do more or less the same.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Regeneration: What am I missing?

 

Absorption fades though. Healing does not.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Regeneration: What am I missing?

 

There is no "healing effect" advantage for Absorption.

 

However, 5er page 132 describes how to build an 'absorption as a defense' effect by combining Absorption with a Limited Defense Power (Force Field, Armor, etc.. ; Only Up To Amount Rolled By Absorption).

[Tachyon]

Re: Regeneration: What am I missing?

 

There is no "healing effect" advantage for Absorption.

 

However, 5er page 132 describes how to build an 'absorption as a defense' effect by combining Absorption with a Limited Defense Power (Force Field, Armor, etc.. ; Only Up To Amount Rolled By Absorption).

It is in The Ultimate Energy Projector, page 13, Healing Via Adjustment section.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Regeneration: What am I missing?

 

It is in The Ultimate Energy Projector' date=' page 13, Healing Via Adjustment section.[/quote']

 

Ah, I didn't think to check that book.

 

Good catch!

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Regeneration: What am I missing?

 

Another option is mentioned in The Ultimate Brick, page 35:

 

If the GM wants to simplify how Absorption works as a defense, double the cost with this multiplier and have the total rolled on the dice count as both PD and ED which the character can apply against any attack he Absorbs that Phase.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Regeneration: What am I missing?

 

Wrong.

 

Healing/Regeneration can be built with the Trigger Advantage to then allow it to respond to each and every wound separately.

 

Hideously complex to use and track but a very possible circumstance.

 

That works well enough for lots of little wounds (assuming the GM allows separate tracking of wounds), but I do not think it would work as well, even with trigger, for a smaller number of larger wounds as the maximum amount of healing is determined by the dice roll and can only be exceeded within a discreet period (1 day by default) by a better roll. Well, as far as I know, anyway

 

IMO the cheapest and most effective type of regeneration is this, assuming the GM approves the sfx:

 

5pd/5ed armour (double hardened): 22 points (sfx - any damage stopped appears as an injury which instantly heals)

 

It is not universally effective, of course, but only specialist attacks will get through it, and, combined with the characters normal defences can create the appearance of a very rapidly regenerating character.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Regeneration: What am I missing?

 

bah, Healing is borked. Rewrite as needed for each game.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Regeneration: What am I missing?

 

That works well enough for lots of little wounds (assuming the GM allows separate tracking of wounds), but I do not think it would work as well, even with trigger, for a smaller number of larger wounds as the maximum amount of healing is determined by the dice roll and can only be exceeded within a discreet period (1 day by default) by a better roll. Well, as far as I know, anyway

 

...

 

Again, no.

 

29 Regeneration - Triggered Per Wound: Healing BODY 1d6+1 (standard effect: 4 points), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; Whenever takes BODY; +1), Decreased Re-use Duration (1 Turn; (5er, page 188) This Advantage allows a character to apply Healing more than once a day.; +1 1/2) (58 Active Points); Self Only (-1/2), Always On (-1/2)

[Notes: Each wound needs to be tracked separately because although 2 BODY is immediately applied on the Phase a particular wound occurs it doesn't occur again for that same wound until 12 additional Phases have passed.] - END=0

 

For a little more than double the cost of my previous examples this would work on any number and size of wounds. It's just a bookkeeping nightmare. It would still be possible to kill a character with this ability, it would just require several attacks that each cause the loss of 3+ BODY in a short period of time to overwhelm. The Armor approach can only be breached by attacks that exceed it's defense.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Regeneration: What am I missing?

 

bah' date=' Healing is borked. Rewrite as needed for each game.[/quote']

 

But that's exactly what most people are really complaining about having to do when they talk about the 'loss' of the Fourth Edition stand alone version of Regeneration.

 

I don't see that actually simplifying the rule set any because it probably would require just as many exceptions to be included to forbid combining '4e Regeneration' with Usable By Others (which would otherwise make Healing obsolete).

[ghost-angel]

Re: Regeneration: What am I missing?

 

Healing/Regeneration is trying to do two Exclusive things:

 

Heal in a limited time frame

Heal all the time

 

Separate them and just say that "Healing can only be used X Times, buy Reduced Reuse Time" and "Self Healing can be used any time, but cannot take Usable By Others, extending the Time is a Limitation"

 

bing.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Regeneration: What am I missing?

 

Again, no.

 

29 Regeneration - Triggered Per Wound: Healing BODY 1d6+1 (standard effect: 4 points), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; Whenever takes BODY; +1), Decreased Re-use Duration (1 Turn; (5er, page 188) This Advantage allows a character to apply Healing more than once a day.; +1 1/2) (58 Active Points); Self Only (-1/2), Always On (-1/2)

[Notes: Each wound needs to be tracked separately because although 2 BODY is immediately applied on the Phase a particular wound occurs it doesn't occur again for that same wound until 12 additional Phases have passed.] - END=0

 

For a little more than double the cost of my previous examples this would work on any number and size of wounds. It's just a bookkeeping nightmare. It would still be possible to kill a character with this ability, it would just require several attacks that each cause the loss of 3+ BODY in a short period of time to overwhelm. The Armor approach can only be breached by attacks that exceed it's defense.

 

 

I was being unclear: you can apply healing as often as you like, but there is absolutely no point once you've rolled the maximum for your dice. Trigger does not change that: all it does is activate a power without you having to worry about it which, as the OP was apparently talking about 'standard' regeneration, which does 1 point, SE, means that continued application IS pointless, given that I was responding to the OP who had not specified that we were deviating from the standard position (wound tracking is a GM option only). In fact, as your build requires that you TAKE Body (rather than just being down on body), it only triggers when the damage occurs, and so is only effective in actually getting rid of all the damage you take if you roll enough healing to clear the damage from the wound you have just taken - and it will only work on one wound - presumably the one you've just taken - if you are using wound tracking.

 

If you are NOT using wound tracking, then it is 2 Body per turn at maximum, so you could not heal all of 3x1 Body wounds in a turn.

 

You've built this with decreased re-use duration, down to 1 turn: my point was that Hero regeneration is NOT build with that advantage: it uses a limitation to give it that advantage as a special case.

 

I've never seen the point of grandfathering Regeneration then having to use non-standard and unique power modifiers to make it work. you get rid of one 'special case' and replace it with another. I'm pretty sure this one was not thought all the way through.

 

Also 'Always on' is generally not allowed for regeneration as there is no substantial downside.

[jtelson]

Re: Regeneration: What am I missing?

 

IMO the cheapest and most effective type of regeneration is this, assuming the GM approves the sfx:

 

5pd/5ed armour (double hardened): 22 points (sfx - any damage stopped appears as an injury which instantly heals)

 

It is not universally effective, of course, but only specialist attacks will get through it, and, combined with the characters normal defences can create the appearance of a very rapidly regenerating character.

 

Don't forget the Only vs. Body