Magic Sigils?

[eepjr24]

How do most GM's handle these, if at all? I am talking about markings that wizards put on things that are visible only to magic senses (or sometimes to normal senses in special circumstances like the light of a full moon during a Solstice or whatever). These could be placed on an item to denote ownership, or a trail to mark directions, or even to mark a person for death in some cases.

 

I would think this is either Images, Transform or (less likely) Change Environment. The first or the last bought 0 end, etc. Does anyone have an example of this type of spell from their games?

 

- Ernie

[Jeff]

I don't have an example of it yet - my spellbook is still growing, although I'm closing in on a hundred in this last week - but I'd go with a Cosmetic Transform.

[BlackCobra]

Definitely Cosmetic Transform, and just require special senses to see it. This doesn't require 0-End or anything like the others do, and it has obvious ways to make it go away (*rub*rub*rub*).

 

This is something I intended to incorporate into my magic system as a Magician's way of marking work they've done or signing spell books they've written.

[eepjr24]

Transform?

 

Okay, I can go with Transform. I don't want people to be able to "rub" it off, this is a wizards mark, and it can only be removed through an appropriate transform by a wizard (the same one or another) or a Dispel of enough dice to remove that transform bought with Standard Effects.

 

Ex: Mitchum has 15 body, and a wizard applies a mark to him. To remove it would take a dispel totalling 50 AP (30 body transform, 3 body per die, 10 cosmetic dice, 50 AP).

 

It will only show up to 'Wizard Sight' which is a sense available for purchase by those who meet some requirements (magic skill roll minimum and/or RP in magic spells). Some magical creatures may have native 'Wizard Sight'.

 

Since transform is cumulative, any wizard can apply the transform to anything given enough time and endurance.

 

Any of that sound unbalanced or such?

 

- Ernie

[Nolgroth]

Wouldn't Images to Mage Sight/ Detect Magic, 0 END Persistent work just as well? The Cosmetic Transformation is okey dokey, but I would want to try an alternate solution as well. The image of the sigil could only be removed with a Dispel of sufficient force. Just a suggestion.

[Jeff]

Originally posted by nolgroth

Wouldn't Images to Mage Sight/ Detect Magic, 0 END Persistent work just as well? The Cosmetic Transformation is okey dokey, but I would want to try an alternate solution as well. The image of the sigil could only be removed with a Dispel of sufficient force. Just a suggestion.

You'd want it Uncontrolled too if you wanted it to survive your death or a switch in framework allocation. Uncontrolled is going to run you into a stop sign, though in this case, I imagine most GM's won't ticket you for running it. It normally requires a set duration too, which may be inappropriate for a sigil. Then again, it's another likely spot for GM waiver.

 

For that matter, it'll be cheap enough that even if the GM allows spells in frameworks, there's likely little urgency in this case to put it in one. And given the effect, the GM may let it survive you anyway, until Dispelling or ruining the sigil itself, which are likely to happen sooner and more easily than killing you.

 

It's a viable alternative. I think it's just a little less tidy than Cosmetic Transform.

[Herolover]

Blasphemer

 

I realize that what I am about to say is very blasphamous to many of HEROdom, but why give it game mechanics at all?

 

It really doesn't do anything except for Roleplay purposes, so why not keep it in the Roleplay realm and not even give it a mechanic? Just make it something wizards are able to see and do.

[Jeff]

Re: Blasphemer

 

Originally posted by Herolover

I realize that what I am about to say is very blasphamous to many of HEROdom, but why give it game mechanics at all?

 

It really doesn't do anything except for Roleplay purposes, so why not keep it in the Roleplay realm and not even give it a mechanic? Just make it something wizards are able to see and do.

Not a bad idea. Magic is a Power skill, after all, so there's some scope for that anyway, and it'd be quite plausible to make it a function of that skill and/or some appropriate complementary one (e.g. KS: Sigils).

[eepjr24]

Mechanics?

 

Well, that would probably work in some games. I have some ideas for in game uses that would make mechanics desired:

 

1. Demonologists mark their next victims with a sigil that only mages and demons can see.

 

2. The city guard marks criminals with identifying marks.

 

3. In some countries, slaves are marked with their owners mark. Tampering with slave marks has a death penalty attached to it. (No brands will marr that beautiful flesh now).

 

4. Some necromancers have to mark dead bodies with their sigils a week before raising them.

 

etc...

 

- Ernie

[Nolgroth]

Well, that would probably work in some games. I have some ideas for in game uses that would make mechanics desired:

Not only those, but a Sigil may be the prerequisite for some sort of Indirect spell. Only against those previously marked with Magi's Sigil or something. If ALL it is going to be is a mark, then I have no problem with it being entirely special effect.

 

There are very few powers/effects that can't be used for mechanical purposes by enterprising players.

[ScottoStanek]

Why not Cosmetic Spirit Transform

 

Try this: 9d6 Cosmetic Spirit Transform, only works on living things with "Spirit" -1/4 (Cosmetic as it does no damage and doesn't effect the current powers or abilities of the target)

This tran creates a "sigil" which has the following power, ie grasfts this set of power/disads onto the target... Healing this requires either a Transform to another sigil (say "Ex-slave" or "Guildsman Bob") or a very rare Regen vs Spirit Body.

 

Images vs Magesight 10pts (assumes it is targeting) 0End Pers Aon (20 AP) =13 Real

+

Social Limit "Marked for X" Freq 11- (10), Major (+5) = -15

 

These balance out so only need to affext BodyX2 which on 9d6 averages somewhere in 20-40 range or affects a normal 10 Body up to 20 Body target --assuming Power Defense is rare enough to ignore.

 

Granted, this would only work if the "Magesight" was either a campaign freebie for mages of sufficient power (like mental awareness is) or _really_ common.

 

If you are looking only for the "Highlander" effect, drop the images down to non-targeting and reduce the soc lim a bit.

 

Scotto the Unwise

PS Hey Ernie!

[eepjr24]

Images?

 

I am not convinced that I would even need to give them a power. I was more thinking of granting them a disadvantage:

 

Distinctive Feature: 'Wizards Sigil', Concealable with Major Effort, Noticed: Major Reaction, Only Detectable by Unusual Senses, Not distinctive in some cultures.

 

That has a total disad point of 0. Being able to dispel it is one of the Transforms Healing methods.

[eepjr24]

PS: Heya back atcha, Scotto.

[AlHazred]

Since some of the items you'd put it on have a rather high BODY (the side of a castle, a powerful demon, etc.) I'd make it an Image, rather than a Transform. For one thing, it doesn't seem to make sense to me that it would be "harder" to mark one person than it would to be another, yet a person with 20 BODY will be tougher to mark than a person with 10. Mind you, you could do the optional Transform vs. EGO, but I'd go with Images as a simple solution.

 

Cost	Power	END
4	Wizard's Mark: Sight Group Images, Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2) (20 Active Points); OAF Fragile (Golden Scribe, a delicate marking device that seems to be made of gold; -1 1/4), Set Effect (unique mark for each wizard; -1), No Range (-1/2), Requires A Magic Skill Roll (-1/2), Limited Effect (Detect Magic sense only; -1/4), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4)

 

All that said, in a campaign that included such things, I would probably make it a free ability for anyone with the Magic Power skill.

[eepjr24]

Originally posted by AlHazred

Cost	Power	END
4	Wizard's Mark: Sight Group Images, Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2) (20 Active Points); OAF Fragile (Golden Scribe, a delicate marking device that seems to be made of gold; -1 1/4), Set Effect (unique mark for each wizard; -1), No Range (-1/2), Requires A Magic Skill Roll (-1/2), Limited Effect (Detect Magic sense only; -1/4), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4)

 

I did like Images, but the more I think about it, the more hand waving it requires. Images are 1 hex and cannot move. To use them without hand waving, you would probably have to buy Megascale at the +1 or higher level. Also, since magic senses vary (mostly in the Sight, Mental or Unusual groups), you would have to buy it for both the first two and really could not affect the third. This would bring the AP to about 45.

 

It does have advantages, in that one cast will do the trick. A transform of the same AP would take 2 casts for some adventurers and three for the sturdiest warriors (standard effect). Since it is unlikely to be cast in combat this is not a big issue. Overall, I like the mechanics of the transform better in this case.

 

- Ernie

[ScottoStanek]

The idea with the transform option though is that the wizard may not necessarily "mark" the victim themselves, but could much more easily apply it to something they have on --or premark something and get it into their possession.

 

After all, isn't it a staple of Fantasy that the 'homing item' gets handed off at just the wrong moment? For low-powered types, you apply direct. For Conan, you mark an axe and give it to him.

 

Scotto the Unwise:)

[Markdoc]

Keep in mind that a continuous power cast on a mobile object becomes mobile itself, so images would work.

 

That would be my approach. I definately think it should be mechanic'ed out since players will want to use it /remove it.

 

cheers, Mark

[eepjr24]

Continuous moves?

 

Mark,

 

Where are you seeing the continuous powers move thing? I thought I remembered that as well, but could not find it when I went looking. I will check the FAQ's, I was just looking in FREd, and I easily could have missed it there even.

 

- Ernie

[austenandrews]

I'm with Herolover on this one. Just make it something the wizard can do but doesn't have to pay points for. In effect, the points are paid by the person who sees the sigil, not by the person who makes it.

 

If you want to make the sigil permanent and/or involuntary, make it a skill instead. It'd be similar to buying a skill to make tattoos. It's still entirely magical, and it's still a game mechanic, but by using a Skill instead of a Power you don't twist yourself into knots trying to figure out why a large man is more difficult to mark than a baby (as you would with Cosmetic Transform) or contriving Advantages and Limitations to avoid that problem.

 

If you're hung up on buying it as a Power, I'd suggest Images UAA, 0 END, Uncontrolled. It's silly, but it's the only one that makes sense according to the strict semantics of the various Powers. Or if you're just interested in mechanics, buy it as an Entangle, Non-Restricting, 0 BODY, Invisible Power Effects, with Magic Sense being the only thing that detects it. Or use any other power that leaves some effect on the target. It doesn't matter. The intended viewer is really seeing the Special Effect, not the effect of the power itself.

 

Which is my argument for bypassing Powers and just using a Skill that creates the Special Effect.

 

-AA

[AlHazred]

Re: Continuous moves?

 

Originally posted by eepjr24

Where are you seeing the continuous powers move thing? I thought I remembered that as well, but could not find it when I went looking. I will check the FAQ's, I was just looking in FREd, and I easily could have missed it there even.

 

The reason it works is because Images is a "Standard Power/Attack Power/Sense-Affecting Power". Since it's an Attack Power, it can be targeted on a space (since it's inherently Area of Effect), person or object. (In fact, one of the examples says, "For example, if the supervillain Mirage created an image of Defender tied to the front of a bus..." which only works if either (a) the bus was targeted for the Image, which followed it when it moved, or ( the whole thing, bus and Defender, is an Image. I have chosen to go with (a).)

 

Anyhoo, I made it a Sight Group Image, since I figured a Wizard's Sigil would be a visual image, like a rune or glyph. If you wanted to make one with multiple components, be my guest. In any case, since it's a minor power, I'd make it a standard Power Skill stunt for anyone with Magic Skill.

[Markdoc]

It's also explicitly stated in FH, in the section on use-of-powers as spells (I just got my FH on Friday - I'm in Denmark, ya know) and was reading it the night before I posted, so it was on the forebrain, if you know what I mean.

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

It's also explicitly stated in FH, in the section on use-of-powers as spells: the example used in darkness to sound as away of silencing magic users, IIRC (I just got my FH on Friday - I'm in Denmark, ya know) and was reading it the night before I posted, so it was on the forebrain, if you know what I mean.

 

cheers, Mark

[Jeff]

Darkness vs. sound to shut up incantations that's to follow the target around is specifically listed as something to buy usable as an attack (FH, p. 129). This follows FREd, p. 96, in the description of Darkness; without UAA, it's either immobile or centered on and following around the person using it if they want - not a third party. The same goes for Force Walls (FREd, p. 117).

 

There is no mention of Images or Change Environment even being capable of attaching to the user in their FREd descriptions, much less being capable of tracking a target without being UAA. A GM might also permit something similar with Continuous, I guess - the power automatically retargets the target wherever he's gone since the last phase each phase without a new attack roll or half-phase action. But it'd be a weird effect for a sigil that chases after the target instead of just plain staying on it.

 

The Images example of Defender on the bus is taken out of context. It's meant to illustrate the effect of special knowledge on being able to reject an illusion. Insofar as it goes, the Images might just have the area to keep the illusory Defender stuck on a real bus far enough to make the point. That's all.

[Markdoc]

>>> A GM might also permit something similar with Continuous, I guess - the power automatically retargets the target wherever he's gone since the last phase each phase without a new attack roll or half-phase action. But it'd be a weird effect for a sigil that chases after the target instead of just plain staying on it.<<<

 

I think you are mis-interpreting here. It's not like the power hangs around and then darts after the target in "its" phase. It's just on. In the darkness example quoted, the mage cannot dash off and regain the ability to make noise until the darkness vs hearing catches up with him again. It's on all the time - including segments in between actions, just as it would be if cast on an immobie object or hex.

 

Likewise acid (often defined as a continuous attack) which is squirted onto a character does not hang around in blob in the air if he moves and then shoot off after the target and hit him again on the next phase: it's on the target all the time, it's just that burn damage is calculated on the attacker's phase.

 

So I see no problem for a sigil to behave the same way. Of course, being magic, it doesn't have to be physically on him: it could hover about in an obvious way, like Dilbert's little lightning cloud.

 

cheers, Mark