Narf the Mouse Posted June 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 27, 2009 Re: Just wanted to reiterate my original post. - Christopher Mullins Ah, sorry. Basically, it depends. For example, some builds can work entirely within the rules. Some can work without creating new advantages/limitations. And, some need some 'wiggle room' with the rules. Also, some involve inventing whole SFXs. It's really up to the original poster of a concept, how much rules-wiggle they're willing to accept - Although, if a concept doesn't work in the rules, then it doesn't work in the rules and the thread has found one answer. The purpose of the thread is to 'break' Hero System - Not to degenerate it, but to point out areas that could use some work. And yeah, sorry, I could have been more clear. The thread seems to be going ok without me laying down specific rules. These are my thoughts on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted June 27, 2009 Report Share Posted June 27, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... Answered on the first 2 pages, including my answer which didn’t use EDM. http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1855970&postcount=15 I have to note though, saying “Fine, prove the system can do this but don’t use Power X” isn’t really looking for something the system cannot do, it’s looking for a second (or in this case, since the question has been answered in this very thread, a 4th or 5th way) to do something we’ve already shown it can while simultaneously trying to cripple our ability to do so. Why don't we just add a subpower to EDM: "Handwave". When you use this variant of EDM, you may define the dimension to which you move as being exactly the same as this dimension, but with whatever changes you wish to make, and is, in fact, the same dimension you started in with only the changes your power mandates. For example, "Nullify Powers" is Handwave that removes the powers of all characters, or only those whose powers you want to nullify. "Omnipotence Zone" is Handwave which moves you to a dimension where you have sufficient defenses to be unaffected by any attack against you, sufficient OCV to hit any target and enough DC's of damage to KO or kill (your choice) any target you wish. You also gain enough movement to go anywhere and enough senses to perceive anything. I think my next character will ust have a Cosmic VPP restricted to EDM that always just changes the actual dimension rather than transporting him to a new dimension. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted June 27, 2009 Report Share Posted June 27, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... Did you just decide to ignore my post, (the one I linked to in the very post you quoted) because the idea was just too stupid or something? Did you even bother to read it? I’m wondering if you are just ignoring me or everyone who has already answered this question. The following posts that I’m linking for you come from this very thread. They either put forth ways stopping time is possible without EDM (even if some of the builds are complicated or expensive to the point of being unplayable) or discuss that “Stopping Time” is not, in fact, a power, but a SFX. http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1855961&postcount=10 http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1856006&postcount=23 http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1856068&postcount=47 http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1856097&postcount=54 http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1860158&postcount=173 Why don't we just add a subpower to EDM: "Handwave". When you use this variant of EDM' date=' you may define the dimension to which you move as being exactly the same as this dimension, but with whatever changes you wish to make, and is, in fact, the same dimension you started in with only the changes your power mandates. [/quote'] Isn’t that basically how the “Wish” power from FH works? Anyway, you having a personal issue with a specific mechanic does not, in and of itself, invalidate the use, even if it is “kludgey”. Plus, as I’ve hopefully just illustrated, there are other ways to do it as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BNakagawa Posted June 27, 2009 Report Share Posted June 27, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... I think the most accurate way to represent “Stopping Time” is simple. A very large Suppress Speed. Large enough to turn everything from SPD 12 (essentially the “SPD” of the Earth since it’s always moving) to SPD Zero. Apply enough AoE and Megascale to cover the Earth (or whatever the conceivable area the game might take place in would be). Simple, just ridiculously expensive. And it should be. A true “Hiro Nakamura from Heroes” type time stop allows him to do anything he wants to those that are frozen in time. He can, in theory, kill anyone, move anything, it’s pretty much unlimited. My point is that “Stopping Time” isn’t hard to model; it’s just that it is too powerful and too expensive for anything other than a plot device based on GM fiat. Sure you can make lots of powers and have the SFX be “I’m stopping/manipulating time”, but to actually stop time, well, that’s why the characters that can do that sort of thing in the source material have authors and not Players limited by some RPG’s mechanics. First of all, it does nothing to affect the environment which does not have a SPD stat. If you are falling and use a massive suppress SPD, you still go splat. So does anything else that is falling. Reducing someone's SPD to 0 will not stop them from drowning either. Reducing everyone's SPD to 0 will still not allow you to take multiple actions in a segment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted June 27, 2009 Report Share Posted June 27, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... Here’s another thread about time manipulation with suggestions other than EDM: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71389&highlight=time+stop And this one is about Time Stop. Though EDM is the first thing suggested, Thia suggests 3 or 4 ways to do it down in post 11: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69771&highlight=time+stop And here’s another that gives more than just EDM: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62943&highlight=time+stop I’m sure there’s more if I had time to look… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted June 27, 2009 Report Share Posted June 27, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... First of all, it does nothing to affect the environment which does not have a SPD stat. If you are falling and use a massive suppress SPD, you still go splat. So does anything else that is falling. Reducing someone's SPD to 0 will not stop them from drowning either. Reducing everyone's SPD to 0 will still not allow you to take multiple actions in a segment. The Earth isn't moving in your games? hmm. Must be interesting. Seriously though, do the rules say that the Earth/objects/the environment don’t have a SPD? I got the idea from something I read on these boards months ago. Regardless it is not a finished build but it would take no more Handwaving then EDM supposedly does. AND I posted links to OTHER suggestion from this very thread that you are now both ignoring apparently. EDIT: I also just posted three more threads that had suggestions other than EDM right above this post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted June 27, 2009 Report Share Posted June 27, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... Just because a solution has been put forth does not mean it will meet everyone's criteria as a valid solution. The System tries to make as few assumptions about the Game World as possible, which inevitably means that some solutions require that those assumptions be filled in by the GM and Group - since not everyone sees things the same way it's inevitable that what works for one group won't work for another. Relax. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted June 27, 2009 Report Share Posted June 27, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... Sorry, I wasn’t trying to be contrary. If two or three versions in this thread alone, plus three more threads full of options (many of which are not EDM) do not model it to their criteria, I guess nothing will short of a new mechanic. P.S. My question was serious though. Is there anything in the rules that forbid Adjustment Powers working on the immediate environment, or the game world as a whole? I mean, attacks affect the environment. There is a Change Environment Power. I’ve seen Adjustment Powers used to model things that affect environmental effects, like “fire extinguishers” built as a Suppress that worked not only on “Fire SFX” Powers but on fire as an environmental hazard as well. So I have to ask, was what I suggested really that stupid? And even if it was, why do the people complaining that Hero cannot model “Time Stop” refuse to comment on all the other builds rather than just harp on EDM over and over again? Maybe I’m just dense, but I just don’t get the argument… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted June 27, 2009 Report Share Posted June 27, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... Many view the environment as stat-less. Gravity does not turn off, even if you reduce the planets speed to 0 for example. Looked at another way - Speed is a measure of how often you can act in a 12-Second (1 Turn) Period, it can be voluntarily reduced to as low as 2 as well. The Environment always acts, in fact, it can't not act. But it doesn't just act, it IS. Is reducing the Environments Speed to 0 explicitly forbidden? No, not really. What will vary wildly is how people interpret that. Most will say it's meaningless to do so, since things like Gravity aren't a Character in any sense of the word. So a huge Speed Drain/Suppress won't do you any good in their games. Some people would decide that it has meaning and use that to model a Time Stop like power. Like I said, the System has no context until you place a Game around it, then it games a significant amount of meaning depending on interpretation and desired effects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schir1964 Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... Like I said' date=' the System has no context until you place a Game around it, then it games a significant amount of meaning depending on interpretation and desired effects.[/quote'] Ditto. - Christopher Mullins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schir1964 Posted June 29, 2009 Report Share Posted June 29, 2009 Re: Ah, sorry. Basically, it depends. For example, some builds can work entirely within the rules. Some can work without creating new advantages/limitations. And, some need some 'wiggle room' with the rules. Also, some involve inventing whole SFXs. It's really up to the original poster of a concept, how much rules-wiggle they're willing to accept - Although, if a concept doesn't work in the rules, then it doesn't work in the rules and the thread has found one answer. The purpose of the thread is to 'break' Hero System - Not to degenerate it, but to point out areas that could use some work. And yeah, sorry, I could have been more clear. The thread seems to be going ok without me laying down specific rules. These are my thoughts on it. Well then, that is different. Perhaps these threads might interest you then: [thread=67214]Definition Of A Mechanic[/thread] [thread=67311]Handcuffs[/thread] [thread=67940]Alter Reality[/thread] [thread=50759]Extra Limbs[/thread] [thread=67139]Scale[/thread] There are more, but I think you get the idea. - Christopher Mullins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narf the Mouse Posted June 29, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 29, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... I don't see it as different than most of the discussion that has happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GamePhil Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... Why don't we just add a subpower to EDM: "Handwave". See, I don't have a problem with that, though I wouldn't think it needs to be so explicit. None of the Powers that are in the official rules that use EDM have a straightforward method of functioning otherwise, and are things that if they exist in the game world at all I want to retain control of them. If the Speed Zone or the Astral Zone exist, I make the rules for them as I would any other environment, and then EDM is the way to reach them. For Wish, it is a straightforward method of getting the job done and leaves me free to have unforeseen side effects. But, you're probably just saying that for the purposes of this thread, using EDM as an answer is probably inappropriate, and I mostly agree. Even using Transform is probably pushing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... But' date=' you're probably just saying that for the purposes of this thread, using EDM as an answer is probably inappropriate, and I mostly agree. Even using Transform is probably pushing it.[/quote'] In order to use Transform, don't you need to cost out the abilities added? IIRC, and IDHTBIFOM, you need extra BOD done in order to add to the target's total character points, or you need to shift his points around somehow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GamePhil Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... Overall, got to agree with g-a: there's really nothing you can't do in the system given the right context and the GM and players getting together to find things they want to do. Broadly true in any game, but in Hero you don't really add rules, you just change your assumptions in what they can affect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GamePhil Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... In order to use Transform' date=' don't you need to cost out the abilities added? IIRC, and IDHTBIFOM, you need extra BOD done in order to add to the target's total character points, or you need to shift his points around somehow.[/quote'] Not what I meant, I was saying, like EDM, using Transform for a lot of effects may be considered a cheap way out and should only be used if it's actually the appropriate Power (turning someone into a frog) or there's really no other way, not as the default, at least for a discussion of what the system can or can't do. For things like your Power Nullification, for example, it probably is the right Power if the change is pretty permanent, and certainly a better choice than EDM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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