Narf the Mouse Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 I thought maybe Cthuthonic creatures, but nope - Those are easy. Anyone found a limit? Anyone want to propose one to be broken? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... :nonp:This kind of question is really just asking for an argument. Inevitably someone will suggest something they can’t think of how to build. Someone else will respond with a clever build that may be very simple or ridiculously complicated. Either way someone will claim that the build is not “realistic” and thus Hero system doesn’t model it well. People will argue about what qualifies as “realistic” and whether we should try to simulate realism at all. Thread deteriorates. Just warning you man. Hopefully that doesn’t happen this time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balabanto Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... Hero System cannot accurately model animals. That's right, normal animals in Hero System are broken. Many of them are either too weak, or in some cases, too powerful, for what they should be able to do. In fact, I don't know many people who disagree with me on this position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtelson Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... I thought maybe Cthuthonic creatures, but nope - Those are easy. Anyone found a limit? Anyone want to propose one to be broken? How do you do the Madness causing effect of the Cthulian Creatures? Ego/PRe Drain - Just big Pre Attacks? Not looking for Bigby's prognosticated argument, just curious. As to the part that may cause Bigby's forshadowed conflict (Slapping Bigby in front of things really does change how the phrase feels) Hero doesn't tend to do absolutes well, not that big a deal for superheroes where absolutes tend to be a bit 'soft' (I'm immune; until I'm not) but in fantasy 'hard' absolutes are, at the very least, staggeringly expensive to model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... :nonp:This kind of question is really just asking for an argument..................... . ...and that is a problem because....? The limits of Hero are these: we can not and do not agree on how we should model stuff, or we do not have enough points. There are things you can not do, because we are specifically excluded from doing them in the rules, but there is almost always another way - usually longwinded, convoluted and rarely if ever entirely satisfactory (and almost certainly involves liberal application of powdered handwavium). Let me give you an example: Possession. I move my consciousness into another body, permanently, until I decide to move again. I have access to all the new body's powers and abilities, skills and knowledge but do not forget my own knowledge (which is presumably written to empty memory as part of the possession process). The possession ability always comes with me. The target consciousness occupies my old body (which it can learn to use but which does not retain any of my old memories) but is usually unconscious through transfer trauma for some time. Best of luck with that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtelson Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... Hero System cannot accurately model animals. That's right, normal animals in Hero System are broken. Many of them are either too weak, or in some cases, too powerful, for what they should be able to do. In fact, I don't know many people who disagree with me on this position. I think that might be a they haven't been modeled accurately more than they can't be modeled accurately - Although it occurs to me I have no idea what the swallowing whole mechanic is in the Hero System...you'd think it would've come up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtelson Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... ...and that is a problem because....? The limits of Hero are these: we can not and do not agree on how we should model stuff, or we do not have enough points. There are things you can not do, because we are specifically excluded from doing them in the rules, but there is almost always another way - usually longwinded, convoluted and rarely if ever entirely satisfactory (and almost certainly involves liberal application of powdered handwavium). Let me give you an example: Possession. I move my consciousness into another body, permanently, until I decide to move again. I have access to all the new body's powers and abilities, skills and knowledge but do not forget my own knowledge (which is presumably written to empty memory as part of the possession process). Best of luck with that one. I've got that handwavium here somewhere...If I had to model this I'd probably try a Multi-Form variable Pool and EDM UAA: Poof He's Gone and I'm him and me - Klunky and Expensive, it might also be technically illegal which would give me the hat trick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmadanNaBriona Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... How do you do the Madness causing effect of the Cthulian Creatures? Ego/PRe Drain - Just big Pre Attacks? Not looking for Bigby's prognosticated argument, just curious. As to the part that may cause Bigby's forshadowed conflict (Slapping Bigby in front of things really does change how the phrase feels) Hero doesn't tend to do absolutes well, not that big a deal for superheroes where absolutes tend to be a bit 'soft' (I'm immune; until I'm not) but in fantasy 'hard' absolutes are, at the very least, staggeringly expensive to model. My favorite model for the madness inducing effect of some Lovecraftian Horrors is as a Change Environment that does Mental Transformation damage against EGO, at least for a slower crazy maker. I'd do it as a damage shield of the same for the mind blasting ones. Extra Offensive PRE generally as well. For my contribution, I'd mention interactive Time Stop, where you can effect the environment and others but they are all frozen in time. Takes a TON of points and a LOT of kludging to get even near` Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narf the Mouse Posted June 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... Time Stop is easy. Speed on a Trigger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtelson Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... Time Stop is easy. Speed on a Trigger. Not even certain how that would work. I've traditionaly modeled it as a handful of AOE selective powers and Teleport Usable as an Attack. So, essentially "What did I want changed about the world while time was stopped?' and "Where did I want to be standing when it started again?" Expend a single action for a Multiple Power Attack and Bob's your Uncle (not literally mind you, unless there's some EDM involved or I suppose if you actually have an Uncle Bob, which strangely I do.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narf the Mouse Posted June 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... It requires creativity, but I don't think it's against the rules. Point the first: Speed gives you phases in which to act. Point the second: Triggered actions happen 'immediatly'. Conclusion: Put them together and you immediatly get a phase in which to act. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtelson Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... Pretty sure there's a bit about changes to Speed in Combat at the beginning of the entering combat section. This did remind me that I forgot everything needed Invisible Power Effects on my build. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narf the Mouse Posted June 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... Thing is, the special effect is that it doesn't change your Speed - It just gives you an immediate phase in which to act. Granted, it's a fine hair to split. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... If you up your Speed you can't act until your current Speed and new Speed match. Adding +1 Speed is changing your Speed. There are two time stop builds. One it insanely expensive and involves a series of combined powers. The other is The Speed Zone EDM from Ultimate Speedster. I don't consider it that kludgey personally. As for Animals - you can model them as well as you can model real people in the system. i.e. they're modeled as easily and accurately as the modeler believes them to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... I think the most accurate way to represent “Stopping Time” is simple. A very large Suppress Speed. Large enough to turn everything from SPD 12 (essentially the “SPD” of the Earth since it’s always moving) to SPD Zero. Apply enough AoE and Megascale to cover the Earth (or whatever the conceivable area the game might take place in would be). Simple, just ridiculously expensive. And it should be. A true “Hiro Nakamura from Heroes” type time stop allows him to do anything he wants to those that are frozen in time. He can, in theory, kill anyone, move anything, it’s pretty much unlimited. My point is that “Stopping Time” isn’t hard to model; it’s just that it is too powerful and too expensive for anything other than a plot device based on GM fiat. Sure you can make lots of powers and have the SFX be “I’m stopping/manipulating time”, but to actually stop time, well, that’s why the characters that can do that sort of thing in the source material have authors and not Players limited by some RPG’s mechanics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... Hero System cannot accurately model animals. That's right, normal animals in Hero System are broken. Many of them are either too weak, or in some cases, too powerful, for what they should be able to do. In fact, I don't know many people who disagree with me on this position. Um, have you asked many people? I know I haven’t been on these boards nearly as long as you, but I’ve never heard that complaint, ever. The closest I’ve heard was an argument over whether a Rhino needed to make a Multipower Attack to both use its horn and then trample someone with the same Move-Through. In fact, while the values are questionable on some of the builds, I think the Bestiary does a pretty good job, and of course you can modify those builds to put them in line with what they “should be able to do”. “Should be able to do”… Is that a nice way of avoiding saying that animals are not “realistically modeled” by any chance? If not, then what are you basing “should” on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... ...and that is a problem because....? The limits of Hero are these: we can not and do not agree on how we should model stuff, or we do not have enough points. There are things you can not do, because we are specifically excluded from doing them in the rules, but there is almost always another way - usually longwinded, convoluted and rarely if ever entirely satisfactory (and almost certainly involves liberal application of powdered handwavium). Let me give you an example: Possession. I move my consciousness into another body, permanently, until I decide to move again. I have access to all the new body's powers and abilities, skills and knowledge but do not forget my own knowledge (which is presumably written to empty memory as part of the possession process). The possession ability always comes with me. The target consciousness occupies my old body (which it can learn to use but which does not retain any of my old memories) but is usually unconscious through transfer trauma for some time. Best of luck with that one. Hummm.... you know, I'd used a Transform and a lot of Telepathy Dice (and here's the handwavium, but it's not lots), plus a really big Mimic Pool VPP that includes Skills, Talents and Perks (the handwave part). Certainly not cheap. But not too bad I don't think. Definitely not an easy build. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eosin Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... Wasn't it Archimedes who said, "Give me a large enough variable power pool and a place to stand and I can [mimic any effect] move the world." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narf the Mouse Posted June 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... If you up your Speed you can't act until your current Speed and new Speed match. Adding +1 Speed is changing your Speed. There are two time stop builds. One it insanely expensive and involves a series of combined powers. The other is The Speed Zone EDM from Ultimate Speedster. I don't consider it that kludgey personally. As for Animals - you can model them as well as you can model real people in the system. i.e. they're modeled as easily and accurately as the modeler believes them to be. 'Does Not Change Speed. Adds A Phase'. Cost to taste. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... 'Does Not Change Speed. Adds A Phase'. Cost to taste. Except that adding a Phase is the very definition of changing a character's Speed. It makes no more sense than adding the Ranged Advantage to a Hand To Hand Attack (edit, I should have used 'HA' for clarity). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narf the Mouse Posted June 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... Except that adding a Phase is the very definition of changing a character's Speed. It makes no more sense than adding the Ranged Advantage to a Hand To Hand Attack. One word: 'Spear'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... I think that might be a they haven't been modeled accurately more than they can't be modeled accurately - Although it occurs to me I have no idea what the swallowing whole mechanic is in the Hero System...you'd think it would've come up. Sounds like a job for EDM.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... Time Stop is easy. Speed on a Trigger. The best way to model 'Time Stop' is often to model what it does. For example, the 'Time Stop' spell from DnD does certain things only, all of which can be modeled with a combination of TK, teleportation and a couple of other powers. It is always worth asking 'what do I want this power to do?' - time stop is a prime example. If you can stop time, what can you do while time is stopped? If everything else is frozen in time, how can you affect it? CAN you affect it? Is it just a fancy way to move from one place to another (teleport) or move other stuff about (TK) or can you actually kill someone while time is stopped (KA)? Can I stop time long enough for this bullet wound to heal (Healing)? Stopping time is often just the sfx of other stuff. For the record triggered SPD would require a LOT of powdered handwavium to work as you describe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... Except that adding a Phase is the very definition of changing a character's Speed. It makes no more sense than adding the Ranged Advantage to a Hand To Hand Attack. First part I agree. Second part - makes perfect sense. It's a great way to model throwing knives. Anyways - I disagree completely with the premise that +1 Speed;Trigger;Only To Add A Phase will actually let you randomly add a Phase. +1 Speed is +1 Speed, that changes your Speed. I consider that both an inherently bad model, and beyond even my acknowledged disregard for the rules at times. but - if your GM will let you do it, Rock On. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... Wasn't it Archimedes who said' date=' [i']"Give me a large enough variable power pool and a place to stand and I can [mimic any effect] move the world."[/i] Do you know I think it might have been Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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