tesuji Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated.... True enough. OTOH' date=' the same argument could be made concerning Multipower.[/quote'] and with the same solution... at some point it becomes more cost appropriate to buy a multiform vpp. just like at some point it becomes cost effective appropriate to turn a mp into a vpp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incrdbil Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated.... Multiform was wide open to abuse before. Abuse proofing multiform seems to need to be so campaign specific, that hardwiring it becomes rather futile. Never seen a fix that seemed acceptable on a very wide scale--some situation always came up where the scheme severely impacted that version of multiform. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelvin Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated.... Here's another Multiform concept, based loosely on VPP, and tesuji's suggestion earlier in the thread. ... Of course there might be one easy way to do this. The pt total times number of forms is a TOTAL not discrete blocks. So if you pay 80 for multiform for 400 pt forms and pay +10 for four such forms, you have 1600 pts to spend and that can be four 400 pt characters or it can be a 400 two 300s and four 150s. Like the multipower-derived concept I described earlier, this concept treads Multiform as "character framework" using a "meta-character-sheet." The forms themselves do not buy Multiform. The player pays for Multiform on the "meta-sheet" using only campaign starting points, and earned experience. In this version, I didn't require the player to pay for the privilege of taking disadvantages (that might be necessary for point balance, but this concept isn't 'finished' enough for such a detail to matter). Multiform Pool: Multiform Base Pool The number of Base Pool points determines the maximum number of multiform pool points that can be spent on a single form. 1 real point per Base Pool point. Advantage: Pool Multiplier This advantage applied to the Multiform Base Pool multiplies the total pool points to be distributed among all forms, but does not increase the maximum number of pool points that can be spent on a single form. +1/4 = Pool Point = Base Pool Points x2 +1/2 = Pool Point = Base Pool Points x4 +3/4 = Pool Point = Base Pool Points x8 etc. Still using 4th Ed superheroic (100 base + 150 disads = 250 total) for my examples: Graymalkin, a wizard who can turn into a panther. 100 Multiform Base Pool of 80 with x2 Pool Multiplier (+1/4) Max 80 points per form, 160 points for all forms Pool Usage: 80 Wizard Form (starts with 80 base points; +150 disads would be 230) 80 Panther Form (starts with 80 base points; +150 disads would be 230) This seems under-costed (2 forms for only an 8% overhead?), but a little tuning could fix that in the absence of some glaring loophole. This structure should make the purchase of "variable size forms" cost effective, and makes it relatively inexpensive to have a lot of forms (especially cheap ones). To mimic some of the 5th ed looseness, allow Multiform-specific limitations to be applied to the pool cost of forms, taking advantage of the specification that the Base Pool size limits only the maximum 'pool points spent' per form - not the actual base points of the form. The Red Mage is a wizard with a fearsome dragon form that he can only call upon once per day: Red Mage 100 Multiform Base Pool of 80 with x2 Pool Multiplier (+1/4) Max 80 points per form, 160 points for all forms Pool Usage: 80 Mage Form with 80 base points; 150 disads would raise to 230) 80 Dragon Form with 180 base points (1 charge continues 1 turn, -1 1/4), 150 disads would raise to 330. I only showed configurations with two forms, but the idea is that any number of forms could be put in the pool, until you run out of pool points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Democracy Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated.... Hmmm. I think this has possibilities, will go and play with some numbers... Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarareid Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated.... It's up to the GM to police their games for blatant abuse. Too many ideas get tossed by an artificial restriction on a meta-game level like "who has more points" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted September 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated.... That's an interesting one Kelvin. I'm assuming the meta-character wouldn't be allowed to take Disadvantages/Complications at all, so you couldn't wind up with more points than the max. Total Points unless you applied some of those qualifying Limitations on the slots? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilFleischmann Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated.... I think the logarithmic cost is more accurate though. Having two forms is a define advantage in versatility' date=' and having four forms is even more of one. But having eight forms, while still an advantage, isn't twice as good as having four - you probably already have the basics covered. And having something like 1,000 forms, while definitely useful, certainly isn't 250x as powerful as having four[/quote'] Exactly. Which is why Duplication is very different. Additional characters are much more incrementally useful than additional forms. Perhaps the +5 (or +1/4) for double forms is OK for Multiform, but it's better balanced at say +1/2 (or more?) for double duplicates for Duplication. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelvin Posted September 3, 2009 Report Share Posted September 3, 2009 Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated.... Hello prestidigitator, I'm assuming the meta-character wouldn't be allowed to take Disadvantages/Complications at all' date=' so you couldn't wind up with more points than the max. Total Points unless you applied some of those qualifying Limitations on the slots?[/quote'] Yes, you are correct, that is the idea (also true of the "multipower" derivative earlier). When I worked up the multipower version years ago, I had no concept that it might be desirable to allow the max points to be inflated via limitations (5th wasn't out yet; you couldn't get a secondary form more powerful than the base form). I'm still not 100% sold, but I've been thinking that a non-multiform character could buy a "power overload" boost for all his powers with a big limitation. The difference being that the non-multiform character still has to pay for all his non-overload abilities at straight cost, while a 1-charge multiform would scale up the whole character. Of course you would still want to allow form limitations regardless, even if they just make the form cheaper -- creative limitations add lots of flavor. It might be possible to make a refinement where you have to buy up the max form points, like some of the enhanced VPP proposals where you could buy up the real and active point caps separately (did something like that make it into 6th?). That wasn't coming together for me last night, though. I find the standard VPP design ingenious; it seems like the concept can be mined for further improvements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talon Posted September 3, 2009 Report Share Posted September 3, 2009 Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated.... I have thoughts about an involved house rule, but at the same time I'd like to use something minimally disruptive (so I can really go to town on my OTHER house rules ). I think I will use the existing rule, but establish a guideline that forms should not be more than 90% of the campaign limit, minus 5 points per extra form past the first. (So in a 400 point game, 1 form is limited to 360; 4 forms would be 345 each, 8 forms 325, etc.) Higher totals than this are possible but subject to strict GM approval. If you are just building a "dial a hero" character these are the limits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tesuji Posted September 3, 2009 Report Share Posted September 3, 2009 Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated.... I have thoughts about an involved house rule, but at the same time I'd like to use something minimally disruptive (so I can really go to town on my OTHER house rules ). I think I will use the existing rule, but establish a guideline that forms should not be more than 90% of the campaign limit, minus 5 points per extra form past the first. (So in a 400 point game, 1 form is limited to 360; 4 forms would be 345 each, 8 forms 325, etc.) Higher totals than this are possible but subject to strict GM approval. If you are just building a "dial a hero" character these are the limits. I have decided to keep it simple Base form pays full book multiform cost Other forms pay 1/2 the multiform cost each. Assuming 400 pt forms, thats about the same points as yours BUT... I dont have any frets about "well if my form is only built on 360 do i have fewer complications. I also avoid the old recursive issue of "well the form is only 360 so the multiform cost is 1/5 of 360..." There is no difference in 400 pt character who paid 40 for multiform and 360 pt character who didn't, except i think the former is simpler. So whichever way works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Democracy Posted September 3, 2009 Report Share Posted September 3, 2009 Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated.... OK. Been thinking about this and I think I have a gestalt of stuff discussed so far. It is interesting to see how people go about this kind of thing. My biggest problem is seeing how these things would work across genres...my core games have always been Champions but that is now shifting to Pulp and LoEG style games, possibly fantasy in future. So. What is my contribution? MULTIFORM: This power allows a character to switch forms. This power is usually used when the shift involves gaining or losing inherent powers rather than simply assuming a new form. The base character will purchase the multiform power. The base character buys a multiform pool that provides a base power level for alternate forms. The largest pool size is the campaign maximum (350 for 5th edition superheroes). The cost of the pool is 1pt per 5 points in pool - so 70 points provides a base of 350 points. Forms are then purchased that can draw from the pool. Forms are bought as if they were a new character and the cost to the base character is 1 point per 5 real points of the form. So a 150 point form would cost 30 points and a 350 point form would cost 70 points. If a character wants a form above the base power level, then he must purchase form limitations (such as focus) to bring the overall points below the base power level. The point cost is still based on the original real cost. So, if a Champions character with multiform purchased at 350 points wanted a 600 point dragon form then he would need at least 3/4 in limitations and the form would cost 120 points. This would mean the Champions character above with a 350 point form, a 100 point form and a 600 point form (in addition to the base character) would leave the character with 70 points to spend on characteristics and skills. I am not sure of the cost - I think it makes sense that the base form be mostly taken up with the multiform power - that is the basis of the character. I would, as a base, make the power non-persistent - when a form is knocked unconscious, they would revert back to the base form. However, I think that forms should be able to purchase advantages such as persistent, if that makes sense for the particular shape-shifter. I think that form limitations should only be half the value they would normally be worth - OAF would be +1/2 rather than +1. My only point of concern is whether this is too expensive. 1 per 10 points seemed to cheap....other ratios seem to 'difficult'. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted September 6, 2009 Report Share Posted September 6, 2009 Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated.... I'll be back when I have more rep to give out. Lucius Alexander Reputation: Always has a palindromedary tagline Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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