Multiform for Free? Frustrated....

[prestidigitator]

This may not be new to some, but I'm really getting frustrated about it for the first time myself. You don't have to put the Multiform on the most expensive form any longer (I'm pretty sure this hasn't changed between 5ER and 6E, but I'm working off 6E at them moment). And there's no additional cost if the forms are more expensive than the, "true form."

 

So here's my dilemma. I want a Multiform character. I build a bunch of forms. Which form should be the "true form" and have the Multiform power? Hmm. Oh! I know. I'll just build one more weak form that has the power. In fact, maybe aside from a defense power or two, that'll be the only function of the last form. Or maybe I already have a relatively weak form to use as the "secret ID" or something, so I'll just throw the Multiform on that.

 

But look! None of those powerful forms had to give up anything for the Multiform; they got it for free. So not only do I have forms that are just as powerful as all the other characters in the campaign, but I can switch between different forms for versatility, and it costs me nothing. Why shouldn't every character have a huge Multiform?!

 

What gives?

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated....

 

When we tried to police it in the rules (4E), the result sucketh mightily, yea verily. Doing it this way makes Multiform make more sense as well as easier to work with, at the price of the GM having to say no every once in a while. This is one of those times when the Hammer of No is appropriate.

[archermoo]

Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated....

 

When we tried to police it in the rules (4E)' date=' the result sucketh mightily, yea verily. Doing it this way makes Multiform make more sense as well as easier to work with, at the price of the GM having to say no every once in a while. This is one of those times when the Hammer of No is appropriate.[/quote']

 

Yup. Just because a power can be abused doesn't necessarily mean there is anything wrong with it.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated....

 

It's up to the GM to police their games for blatant abuse.

 

Too many ideas get tossed by an artificial restriction on a meta-game level like "who has more points"

[tesuji]

Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated....

 

but this isn't IMO about policing. its not about abuses but about accuracy.

 

A "character" with four 60 ap ebs that can use them one at a time costs more than a similar guy with only one such eb. This is represented by the multipower. Because of this the one blast guy has some extra points to spend elsewhere.

 

No where do we see people lining up to say "this whole multipower cost strucure is too hard to calculate so lets just tell the Gms to let them have as many blasts as they feel they want for just the one cost and lets let the gm say no when he feels they took too many"

 

A multiform to me is very much akin to that - except that we say "yeah basically multiform is free but the gm should police abuses."

 

Well thats just not helpful.

 

Just like i can rationally say "four 60 pt ebs costs an extra 24 cp so the one blast guy has 24 cp extra to spend" I would REALLY EXPECT to be able to say "having four 400 pt forms costs XXX and so the guy with only one form has ZZZ extra points" for the exact same balancing reasons.

 

The way mf works in 5e and 6e there is defacto no cost. there is no mechanism for me to say "since you only have the one form, you have an extra xx pts to balance you with the foursome."

 

Now had it been me, and it wasn't, i would have expanded the multi-power mechanic and turned multiform into a "character multipower" using the exact same math - 1/10 for fixed slots, 1/5 for variable slots (within parameters) and producing similar numbers. but then i aint too worried about that math.

[torchwolf]

Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated....

 

That's probably why it said (both in 6E and 5ER):

"In other words, the true form doesn’t have to be the most expensive of the character’s forms, and the relationship of the costs of the forms doesn’t affect Multiform’s cost. As always, the GM should monitor the situation to prevent abuse."

 

I remember the 4th Ed clunkiness of it, though; noting "this can be abused" is the only reasonable way of doing it that I can think of without flat out forbidding some character concepts. Er, Captain Marvel and Billy Batson?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated....

 

It's not just about abuse in my mind, but balance. Pay for what you get, even if we can only approximately balance things against each other. You want extra versatility? You pay more. Frameworks are more expensive than one power of a given size. Variable Special Effect and Variable Advantages cause increases in cost.

 

Hmm. Maybe I'll make all forms pay for the Multiform power, and it'll be based on the highest number of points in any of them. I don't know. Grr.

[Beast]

Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated....

 

what I gather you are saying is that there should be a tax that each form has to pay

so say a 400 pt character that has multiform(with 4x400 pt forms) and 1 form pays for the power and the other 3 have to pay a slot cost of 1/10(like a fixed slot in a multipower)

 

so we have 80 pts for the base power +10 pts for 4 forms for 90 pts total

the 90 pts is paid for by 1 of the forms(call it the base)

then each slot pays a 1/10 of the real cost of the power as a tax for the slot(9pts in this case)

 

I could see this but in the scope of the game is 9 pts really going to mean that much

I'm just using Multipower as an example since it seems to be the closest effect

 

 

but this isn't IMO about policing. its not about abuses but about accuracy.

 

A "character" with four 60 ap ebs that can use them one at a time costs more than a similar guy with only one such eb. This is represented by the multipower. Because of this the one blast guy has some extra points to spend elsewhere.

 

No where do we see people lining up to say "this whole multipower cost strucure is too hard to calculate so lets just tell the Gms to let them have as many blasts as they feel they want for just the one cost and lets let the gm say no when he feels they took too many"

 

A multiform to me is very much akin to that - except that we say "yeah basically multiform is free but the gm should police abuses."

 

Well thats just not helpful.

 

Just like i can rationally say "four 60 pt ebs costs an extra 24 cp so the one blast guy has 24 cp extra to spend" I would REALLY EXPECT to be able to say "having four 400 pt forms costs XXX and so the guy with only one form has ZZZ extra points" for the exact same balancing reasons.

 

The way mf works in 5e and 6e there is defacto no cost. there is no mechanism for me to say "since you only have the one form, you have an extra xx pts to balance you with the foursome."

 

Now had it been me, and it wasn't, i would have expanded the multi-power mechanic and turned multiform into a "character multipower" using the exact same math - 1/10 for fixed slots, 1/5 for variable slots (within parameters) and producing similar numbers. but then i aint too worried about that math.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated....

 

Practically - the Base Form will be the one that the GM set the campaign parameters to. If you are in a game defined as 150 point characters the Base Form will be that Character regardless of them being the most, least or middle point cost form.

 

Beyond that suggestion I can't help you.

[Netzilla]

Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated....

 

You could require that all the forms split the cost of the Multiform equally. So, if you can Multiform into a 400 point character (80 Real Cost), both forms must pay 40.

[Beast]

Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated....

 

the price gets cheaper the more forms you have to divide it up betwwen

4 forms would only pay 22.5 each

16 forms only pay 6.25 pts each

 

You could require that all the forms split the cost of the Multiform equally. So' date=' if you can Multiform into a 400 point character (80 Real Cost), both forms must pay 40.[/quote']

[torchwolf]

Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated....

 

Example of unfairness: Since the highest Base Cost of Multiform would be equal to 1/5th the Total Cost of the alternate form, a character based on 400 points can pay 80 points (Base Cost) to have another 400 point form, which itself pays nothing.

 

One solution would be to require each form to pay 1/5th of its own Total Cost?

In that case, each form would be proportionally charged, and the "extra 400 point form" in my example would pay exactly as much.

That way, Multiform might be overpriced, though.

If each form pays, say, 1/10th of its own Total Cost, it would cost exactly as much as if the two forms in the example would have split their cost.

 

Note: If this would be used, the x2 adder should probably be removed, as each form already pays some points for itself.

 

Thoughts?

[Nolgroth]

Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated....

 

Disallow Persistent? Even if 0 End, the character gets knocked out and immediately reverts to the base form. Do you want your weakest form as the base then?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated....

 

Hmm. Interesting ideas. What I was thinking is, if you have a 400 point form, two 300 point forms, and two 250 point forms, every form would simply pay 80+5+5=90 points (four extra forms, with the most expensive being 400; or maybe 60+5+5 since the most expensive form always does have to pay now, so it pays for the most expensive of "other" forms).

 

I admit that might be a bit (!) harsh, but it's born out of frustration. LOL.

 

Some good ideas, folks. Thanks, and keep 'em rolling if anything else comes to mind. Heh.

[Utech]

Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated....

 

I don't think it's too difficult to limit how players spend points on Multiform in your games. In fact, I don't think it's any more difficult than limiting the way players spend points on Blast or Barrier or any other power.

[tesuji]

Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated....

 

Practically - the Base Form will be the one that the GM set the campaign parameters to. If you are in a game defined as 150 point characters the Base Form will be that Character regardless of them being the most, least or middle point cost form.

 

Beyond that suggestion I can't help you.

 

i dont quite understand this. The catch is there is nothing in the power which determines which form will be the most used. The Gm needs to watch for balancing vs the form most often used more than the others.

 

Consider a typical banner-hulk, the vast majority of the time will be spent when in combat in hulk for, so banner's capabilities in combat are rather unimportant.

 

But again its not about abuse and such but about balance.

[tesuji]

Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated....

 

Disallow Persistent? Even if 0 End' date=' the character gets knocked out and immediately reverts to the base form. Do you want your weakest form as the base then?[/quote']

 

6E1 271

"Because Multiform is Persistent,

a character who’s Stunned or Knocked Out

doesn’t normally revert to his true form."

 

So we boil down to maybe having your multiform dispelled and again the problems which stem from the "dont waorry about cost its free" design crop up.

 

Three guys all were

 

New Were - a 400 pt beast form and a 150 pt true form but the multiform is easily dispelled. true form pays 80 but applies say a -1/4 for the easily dispelled. if you dont like easily dispelled apply another thing like "takes a turn to change" for -1/2. His base form pays now less for the multiform but is in play more often.

 

Average were - same forms but no difficulty to change. His base form spends more on the mf and so has less other stuff BUT is in play at risk less often ince he can were out quicker and easier.

 

Seasoned were - adds "difficult to dispel" to his mf. So his base form is a little less capable BUT he now can stay almost always in were form with no real fear of it being dispelled, forcing a true form.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated....

 

i dont quite understand this. The catch is there is nothing in the power which determines which form will be the most used. The Gm needs to watch for balancing vs the form most often used more than the others.

 

Consider a typical banner-hulk, the vast majority of the time will be spent when in combat in hulk for, so banner's capabilities in combat are rather unimportant.

 

But again its not about abuse and such but about balance.

 

It's really not the Games problem to determine which form is the most used.

 

I can make a 400 Point Combat Monster Superhero with a Multiform into a 600 Point Non-Combat Poorly "optimized" Scientist, that stutters.

 

How's the System supposed to know which form is going to get used more? It doesn't. And it doesn't care. Nor should it.

 

I personally think this thread is inventing a problem that doesn't exist - or at best a problem only solvable by the GM policing his Game properly.

[tesuji]

Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated....

 

It's really not the Games problem to determine which form is the most used.

 

I can make a 400 Point Combat Monster Superhero with a Multiform into a 600 Point Non-Combat Poorly "optimized" Scientist, that stutters.

 

How's the System supposed to know which form is going to get used more? It doesn't. And it doesn't care. Nor should it.

 

I personally think this thread is inventing a problem that doesn't exist - or at best a problem only solvable by the GM policing his Game properly.

 

The comment was in regards to your confusing comment about setting the game parameters to the base form? Since apparently i did not understand that lets simply go with "what does that mean? In my games it works the reverse - characters conform to the games guidelines.

 

From my experience with multiform you dont care as much about base form vs non-base form when assessing whether or not the character is appropriate but look, for "policing" purposes at the most powerful forms. Are they going to break the bnk badly when played. Then i also look at "which one will be seen most" to get an idea of opportunities.

 

But frankly, the "which is true form" has almost nothing to do with balance considerations.

 

But again its not about policing or abuse.

 

They system is perfectly happy with handing me a measuring stick for "if this guy wants four ebs he can use one at a time then he has to give up this much other stuff"... no one is running around shouting about how it should be free.

 

But for "i want to have four powerful forms" the net result of the choice to not have anything but the true form pay results in the system saying "you are on your own for what works as a trade off here" and that punt seems highly odd and not very helpful.

 

I can "police" my game without any points calculation at all. I do it in every other game.

 

But if the 6e version of multipower had been "allow as many alternative ebs as you like but police the game and determine yourself where to say no" then there would be quite a bit of naysaying.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated....

 

what does "powerful" even mean here?

[tesuji]

Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated....

 

what does "powerful" even mean here?

 

In order to avoid a needless distraction into trivia replace the cite with the following

 

"But for "i want to have four DIFFERENT forms" the net result of the choice to not have anything but the true form pay results in the system saying "you are on your own for what works as a trade off here" and that punt seems highly odd and not very helpful."

 

geesh!

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated....

 

Ok, I guess I just don't see it as a problem. *shrugs*

 

I'll leave those that do to solve it for their games.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated....

 

If (in a superhero game) you have a 100 point character whose only special ability is to be able to turn into a 400 point character by multiform (which will cost 80 points IIRC), you could look at that as the 400 point character not having to pay for multiform, or you could look at it that the 400 point character is going to spend time as a much more vulnerable 100 point character.

[Markdoc]

Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated....

 

The original poster does have a point: as it stands, Multiform is almost entirely too abusable, even if you don't plan on it.

 

OTOH, as it stood before, Multiform was 'orribly clunky. My house rule for 5E was simply that you couldn't have a character worth more points than the base setting rules. So if you are playing 350 point supers, Dragonboy can't play a 1200 point dragon that he morphs into at will and dump the multiform cost on his alternate human form, that he mostly spends time in "off camera". However, he might be able to get that 1200 point dragon, if he takes a heapin' helpin' of limitations to bring the "cost" of that form down to 350 - for example if he can only change with the help of his magical dragon ring (OIF, -1/2), once per day (-2). It's pretty clear in that scenario what's the "base form", and who pays the points. It's also clear what form he'll spend most of his time in.

 

And it also balances with other characters: if Dragon lass has a magic ring that gives her a bunch of draconic powers, via an OIF and they come with a bunch of other limitations, she's essentially getting a similar level of power to Dragonboy for the same points, even if she is not using Multiform.

 

The "base form" is the 350, or 150 pointer, or whatever it is, that everybody else is playing with. If the player wants lower point forms, then that's not an issue: he's paying points for some flexibility. If he wants a more powerful form then there needs to be some limitation to his access to that form to maintain balance. In short, by requiring the player the define some limitations on access to higher point forms, you essentially sidestep the whole issue of a base form, since the base form becomes a) the one that pays the points and the limitations will define how much time is spent in any given form. That seems to work OK.

 

Cheers, Mark

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated....

 

Ok, I guess I just don't see it as a problem. *shrugs*

 

I'll leave those that do to solve it for their games.

 

I can agree with those who see it as something the system does not adress.

 

When would a player who wants a character with four superpowered forms not be better off to have a 5th form, one with basically no super-abilities who just pays for the Multiform?

 

Having that potential, which is supported by much of the source material, to have what is basically a throwaway character pay for the Multiform means that the actual character(s) - the form(s) that will see more play than the OIHID character's non-heroic ID - are paying nothing for the ability to have multiple forms. Thus, this added flexibility becomes free.

 

The rules do nothing to balance this ability, but merely leave it in the GM's lap to reject unbalanced concepts.

 

Could there be a different rule? Sure. For example, the rules could require that EVERY form pay the cost of the Multiforms, such that no one form can have as many points available for other abilities as the character who only has one form.