Multiform for Free? Frustrated....

[prestidigitator]

Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated....

 

Interestingly, not all Persistent remain active when you are Knocked Out in 6E. Persistent powers can cost End, and if they do they shut off when you run out of End (which happens when you're Knocked Out). It'd be nice to be able to specify that in an official way without the power costing End, but that's not currently an option. Maybe we could call that the "-0 level of Costs End" or something (doesn't actually COST, stays on when you're Stunned, but turns off when you're Knocked Out).

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated....

 

for my way of thinking the issue is a non-problem.

I may well be over thinking the issue. It just bugs me on a theoretical level, but it may indeed be a non-problem in practise.

 

You do not control how often he goes into which form.

 

if the 200 pt form is a good science guy, say computer guy, then MOSTLY that form will be used when they need compuiters and his lack of combat isn't NORMALLY going to be a problem.

But it has nothing to do with how often he goes into each form. Sure, he could be a good computer guy with no combat ability, but for the same price, he could be a 400-point Uber-computer Guy (the Computer Whisperer), with no combat ability.

 

If as Gm i start giving point breaks for "some of my forms are weaker than their max" then i think i am obliging myself to stick it to those forms.

I agree it's pretty much pointless to give discounts when they're only paying +5 for each doubling. I was thinking more about this "problem" when using my +1/4 advantage house rule, where the power of the form actually matters to the cost of additional forms.

 

The way it occurred to me to "fix" this is to buy the Advantage only on the points that the additional forms have. So if the first form is 400 points, it costs 80, and the second form costs 400, so that's +1/4 on the full 80, or an additional 20 points. For two more forms at 300 points each, the +1/4 Advantage is only bought on 60 of the points, so it costs only another 15 points, and so on. If the character has another four 100-point forms, the +1/4 is only on 20 points, so it's only 5 points more.

 

Of course there might be one easy way to do this.

 

The pt total times number of forms is a TOTAL not discrete blocks.

 

So if you pay 80 for multiform for 400 pt forms and pay +10 for four such forms, you have 1600 pts to spend and that can be four 400 pt characters or it can be a 400 two 300s and four 150s.

And that's a pretty interesting solution as well! I'd rep you for it, but I have to spread some around first.

[Nolgroth]

Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated....

 

i get it but two things...

 

first werewolves do not typically swap back to human when stunned. they swap back when killed or when circumstances change.

Just re-read Stunned and by rules you are right. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

I think that if somebody is trying to play with the rules as written, then my suggestion would probably not work. If somebody is willing to bend the rules in favor of some sort of dramatic sense, then they might. I, for instance, would waive the "non-Persistent Power Turns Off When Stunned" in this very specific instance. I would say it turns off when Unconscious or Dead, but not when the character gets the wind knocked out of him. But that's me and not at all indicative of the actual hard-coded rules. Use what works, throw the rest out.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated....

 

The analogy with MultiPower is pretty easy to see. For the same 60 points:

 

PC1 has a single 60-point power

 

PC2 has a 50-point MultiPower with two fixed slots

 

PC3 has a 40-point MultiPower with five fixed slots

 

So there's a fair trade-off between raw power and flexibility.

 

But with MultiForm, there is no such trade-off:

 

PC4 is a 400-point character

 

PC5 is a 400-point character who has spent 80 points on another 400-point form

 

PC5 now has 320 points worth of stuff that he has access to that the PC4 does not, and has paid the same amount.

 

PC6 is a 400-point character who has spend 90 points on four additional 400-point forms

 

PC6 now has access to 1510 points worth of stuff (400 or 310 at a time) for no greater cost than PC4 paid for his one form. Lots of flexibility for no trade-off at all.

 

OK. I am interested in this discussion - first one in a while!

 

I was wondering whether multiform might be a specialised kind of multipower - they sound the same, I'm surprised that I never wondered why they dont work the same.

 

So. You buy your main character - he is the one that is going to carry round the multiform. In it he buys the multiform - it can only have ultra slots and can only use one slot at a time.

 

You buy the reserve (which is the maximum value of any form in the multiform) and you then purchase slots (ie character forms) which add to the cost of things at 1/10 per form.

 

The value of character forms is real points (not active points) and the forms can be limited in toto (as suggested by Markdoc above). So your 3000 point dragon must have 7.5 limitations to get down to the 400 point limit of the campaign, or more if you bought a much smaller reserve.

 

Workable?

 

 

Doc

[torchwolf]

Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated....

 

Of course there might be one easy way to do this.

 

The pt total times number of forms is a TOTAL not discrete blocks.

 

So if you pay 80 for multiform for 400 pt forms and pay +10 for four such forms, you have 1600 pts to spend and that can be four 400 pt characters or it can be a 400 two 300s and four 150s.

 

In effect, redefining the adder as "+5 points per 2 x pts to spend on forms".

 

Going the other way - averaging the points of the alternate forms - opens up for abuse; applying Advantages or Limitations for more/less capable forms quickly gets absurd for such small returns (Partially Limited Multiform etc.)... This might be the most effective solution yet.

 

It certainly allows for builds like "Ring of Reptile Forms": Multiform to Dragon, Salamander and Tiny Lizard, without loss of game balance (apart from being a Dragon, of course) or need for major clunkiness writeups.

 

After reviewing the similar mechanics (Followers, Duplication, Summon, etc.) I think this might be applied to some of those as well under certain circumstances.

 

The "Only In Alternate ID" discount argues against charging a character's most combat-capable form for diversity, and allows a bonus for having a less-powered "true form".

 

The similarity to Multipowers is noted; Doc Democracy also has a valid idea. I wonder how it can be represented with _variable_ slots - a Partial Multiform?

 

I sincerely think that several of the solutions presented here merits consideration as the default variant in different campaigns, depending on to which extent emphasis is based on combat effectiveness vs general utility vs roleplaying. Kudos to you all!

 

Personally, I think I will try out tesuji's suggestion in my games (obviously, with some GM policing).

[Lucius]

Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated....

 

How do you handle it in a Campaign where you don't buy Powers' date=' like a Fantasy Campaign where a character finds an Amulet Of Dragon Form; and you still need the Real Points of the construct because you've also used the Resource Points from Dark Champions.[/quote']

 

I am not Dr. Device, but if I were implementing such a concept it would go like this.

 

Step 1. Build the dragon character.

Step 1a. Dragon buys Multiform. The Human form cost is calculated one of three ways: Assume a standard beginning heroic character for the campaign, take a guess at the point total of the wizard who created the item, or assume something a little better than the "standard beginning" character. In any case, use the "absolute effect" rule to state that this Multiform will cover any character who has the amulet.

Step 2. Calculate the cost of the Multiform into dragon form. Apply Focus and other appropriate Limitations. You now have the Real Cost of the Legendary Amulet of Becoming a Prodigious Serpent Gifted with Fangs, Flight, and Fire.

 

 

Sure, it costs a little more than it would if the dragon form didn't pay for Multiform, but it's a two way trip. If you never want to be human again, there's always the Cursed Ring of the Green Dragon, which only allows you to change back upon your death (whereupon the next fool takes the ring off your body.)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Only in palindromedary ID

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated....

 

If you never want to be human again, there's always the Cursed Ring of the Green Dragon, which only allows you to change back upon your death (whereupon the next fool takes the ring off your body.)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Only in palindromedary ID

I thought is was an Armband...

[Kelvin]

Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated....

 

Multiform is an interesting power in that it has had 3 different implementations, none of them entirely satisfactory.

 

Several proposals earlier in the thread are reminiscent of Multiform as originally introduced in "Champions III": All forms pay 1/10 of the total cost (excluding the multiform cost itself) for all forms.

 

Complicated enough at the beginning, the math resulted in a maintenence nightmare as experience points were added to the character.

 

Now had it been me, and it wasn't, i would have expanded the multi-power mechanic and turned multiform into a "character multipower" using the exact same math - 1/10 for fixed slots, 1/5 for variable slots (within parameters) and producing similar numbers. but then i aint too worried about that math.

 

The last time I spent some concentrated time thinking about this (years ago), I concluded that the only "clean" way to implement Multiform was to declare it to be a "character framework" instead of a sort of power framework (I know, technically it's a power today) -- and maintain a completely separate "multiform character sheet".

 

Back in those 4th edition Champions days, I worked up a version with a cost structure derived from multipower.

 

Revised Multiform:

 

The Experience Reserve works just like the point reserve in a Multipower: It can be shared among all your forms. It represents the maximum total free points (Base Points + Experience) that is available to each Multiform slot.

 

The slots work only slightly differently than a Multipower. For each form, you must pay 1/10 the maximum total points (including disadvantages) that the form can have. Up to that maximum, the form can get free points equal to the Experience Reserve. Once you use up the points in the reserve, you can start taking Disadvantages as long as your (total cost)/10 doesn't exceed the slot cost. Of course, just like any other character, the Game Master has the final say on the maximum total cost, and maximum points from Disadvantages.

 

Example:

 

Greymalkin, a wizard who can assume the form of a panther, is a starting character in a 100(base)+150(disads) superheroic campaign..

 

Since he has no experience (yet), he has only 100 points to spend on his Multiform.

 

60 Multiform Experience Reserve

20 Wizard form, up to 205 points total (60 free, 145 from disadvantages)

20 Panther form, up to 205 points total (60 free, 145 from disadvantages)

 

Greymalkin's two forms each have 60 free points, and can raise their total cost to 205 with disadvantages.

 

Experience points get spent on the worksheet rather than on the characters directly.

I was ultimately dissatisfied with this because like multipowers generally, it favors slots with similar costs. (You can buy a slot to less than it's reserve points, but the savings are miniscule.) I wanted a structure that would encourage creatively different forms. It also seemed more expensive than it should be if you wanted to have many forms (a la "animal man").

 

So I worked up a VPP equivalent that would allow infinite forms -- but this had the problem that there was no benefit (mechanically) from building a form to anything less that the maximum power.

 

Even though I haven't played in some years, Multiform still tantalizes me with the notion that there is an elegant solution to be found.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated....

 

Revised Multiform:

 

The slots work only slightly differently than a Multipower.

 

...

 

60 Multiform Experience Reserve

20 Wizard form, up to 205 points total (60 free, 145 from disadvantages)

20 Panther form, up to 205 points total (60 free, 145 from disadvantages)

 

...

 

Even though I haven't played in some years, Multiform still tantalizes me with the notion that there is an elegant solution to be found.

 

There's definitely something there. Your post gave me an idea that I've been stewing on all night. I don't have the time or opportunity at the moment to post my thoughts, but I will hopefully later today or tonight. And, repped.

[Ice9]

Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated....

 

That does seem like a promising approach. Off the top of my head, here's a system that I think would work pretty well for equal-point Multiforms, based off of Summon (where each x2 costs 5 points, but because of the 1:5 ratio it actually costs 25 points of potential power):

 

Multiform Cost (paid by all forms): 25 points for 2 forms (total), +25 points per x2 number of forms. Each form has up to the normal base points for a starting character. At the GM's option, a form can have a higher number of points, matched by more Disadvantages/Complications.

 

Example: Elemental Man can assume the form of any classic element (Air, Water, Earth, Fire, Wood, Metal, Ether) as well as a normal human form. That's 8 forms, so each form pays 75 points. In a 350 point campaign, that means each form has 275 points to work with (the normal human form may have less).

 

This seems approximately correct for a superhuman-level game, but maybe too high a cost for a lower point-total game. For a 350p game, 25p is 7% of the character's total power, so I'd go with either 5% of 10% of the total character points, depending on how potent you feel multiple forms will be.

 

---

 

The character-framework approach works for equal-power Multiforms, like Elemental Man, but what about someone who can turn into significantly weaker forms, like a vampire turning into a wolf or a bat?

 

For that, I'd just use the current Multiform structure (let's call it Secondary Form, to reduce confusion), with the limit that no secondary form can have more than half the points of the primary form. So turning into a 50p wolf - grab a 10p Secondary Form and that's that. Turning into a Titan Wolf as strong or stronger than you are - that would be the Multiform character framework.

 

 

Combining this, we could support multiple forms of different strengths with a combination of Multiform and Secondary Form. For instance, we have a robot that can transform into a large humanoid mech, a combat jet, and a tank, all powerful forms. It can also transform into a sports car, a moving van, a shipping crate, a telephone booth, and a motorboat, which have much lower point totals. It would have the Multiform character framework with four forms: Mech, Jet, Tank, and Utility. The Utility form would have all the low-point forms via the Secondary Form power.

[dataweaver]

Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated....

 

Other than some cosmetic differences, what's really so different between a Multiform and a Multipower? Both allow you to swap out one set of abilities for another at a drastically reduced cost for the alternate package. In fact, I'm pretty sure that I could duplicate the effects of Multiform using a combination of Shapeshift (to cover the cosmetic changes) and Multipower (to cover the changes to the character's stats). The main gotcha would be with respect to things that aren't allowed in Power Frameworks, but which are allowed in Multiforms.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated....

 

I've been thinking about that lately too. Honestly, I think one of the main differences is Complications (well, and things like Special Powers that normally aren't allowed in Frameworks).

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated....

 

Other than some cosmetic differences' date=' what's really so different between a Multiform and a Multipower? Both allow you to swap out one set of abilities for another at a drastically reduced cost for the alternate package. In fact, I'm pretty sure that I could duplicate the effects of Multiform using a combination of Shapeshift (to cover the cosmetic changes) and Multipower (to cover the changes to the character's stats). The main gotcha would be with respect to things that aren't allowed in Power Frameworks, but which [i']are[/i] allowed in Multiforms.

 

That was actually the suggested way to do characters with alternate forms before the Multiform Power existed in the system.

 

My idea is to have the "base form" be the "lowest common denominator" of all the forms. It's not the same as "base form" in the Multiform sense; the base form here might not even be a complete character. Write up a character sheet for each form, then one for the base form. Determine the differences between the base form and each of the other forms; each form has its own "differential" between itself and the base. These points are paid en masse as a fixed Multipower slot (the slot costs the form's cost differential divided by 10), and the Multipower should have enough Active Points to cover the largest.

 

The concept behind it is that the base form plus slot A makes one complete character with one form (Only In Alternate Identity), and the base form plus slot B makes a complete character with a different form (also OIAI).

 

I'd go into more detail and post examples, but it's been a long day and I can't brain, I have the dumb.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated....

 

I've been thinking about that lately too. Honestly' date=' I think one of the main differences is Complications (well, and things like Special Powers that normally aren't allowed in Frameworks).[/quote']

 

I just call it GM handwaveyness. My idea (that I just posted above) actually takes Complications into account, so technically it's putting Complications into a Multipower.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated....

 

I just call it GM handwaveyness. My idea (that I just posted above) actually takes Complications into account' date=' so technically it's putting Complications into a Multipower. [/quote']

 

Yeah. Interesting concept. I'll think on that. If I can work past the dumb myself.

[dataweaver]

Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated....

 

That was actually the suggested way to do characters with alternate forms before the Multiform Power existed in the system.

 

My idea is to have the "base form" be the "lowest common denominator" of all the forms. It's not the same as "base form" in the Multiform sense; the base form here might not even be a complete character. Write up a character sheet for each form, then one for the base form. Determine the differences between the base form and each of the other forms; each form has its own "differential" between itself and the base. These points are paid en masse as a fixed Multipower slot (the slot costs the form's cost differential divided by 10), and the Multipower should have enough Active Points to cover the largest.

 

The concept behind it is that the base form plus slot A makes one complete character with one form (Only In Alternate Identity), and the base form plus slot B makes a complete character with a different form (also OIAI).

 

I'd go into more detail and post examples, but it's been a long day and I can't brain, I have the dumb.

 

I like this. The only catch is when a given differential has as many or more Complications as positive points, leading to a potentially zero or negative cost. What we may have going here is something similar to the distinction between Active and Real points for a power, but for slots: the "Active" cost of the slot would be before any Complications are included; the "Real" cost would be after. Thoughts?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated....

 

I like this. The only catch is when a given differential has as many or more Complications as positive points' date=' leading to a potentially zero or negative cost.[/quote']

I think if the "base form" were the least expensive of all of them, that wouldn't happen.

[dataweaver]

Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated....

 

Actually, he suggested a "lowest common denominator" write-up rather than a "cheapest form" write-up - that is, the "base character" is written up as those traits - both positive and negative - which are shared by every form. You then write up each form in terms of what characteristics, talents, skills, powers, complications, etc. that form has that at least one other form doesn't have. If one of the forms doesn't differ from the "common traits" write-up at all, it will have a cost of zero: no positive traits to raise the cost, no negative traits to lower it. If one of the forms has a minor benefit and a mass of complications that are not shared by all of the other forms, it will have a negative point total. If you try going by the cheapest form, rather than the "common ground" traits, then you may end up having to write up some of the forms at least in part in terms of which traits they don't have, rather than which ones they do have.

 

Consider the cripple who turns into a Norse deity:

 

From the "common ground" approach, you'd buy characteristics at the lowest level of either form; you wouldn't buy any of the deity's powers (because the cripple doesn't have them), nor would you include the cripple's greater intelligence, skills, or Physical Complication (because the deity doesn't have them). You'd then write up two slots: one for the cripple, one for the deity. The cripple's slot would include some Intelligence, a few mental skills, and a Physical Complication; the deity's slot would include some vastly improved physical characteristics and some god-like powers.

 

From the "cheapest form" approach, you'd buy you'd buy characteristics at the cripple's level; you wouldn't buy any of the deity's powers, but you would include the cripple's Intelligence, skills, and Physical Complication. You'd then buy two slots: the cripple's slot would be free, because he doesn't differ at all from the base write-up. The deity's slot would include everything that the deity has that the cripple lacks; but it would also include a set of missing or lowered traits: a reduction in Intelligence, the removal of several skills, and the removal of the Physical Complication.

 

Oh, and consider the possibility of two forms with equal point totals, but vastly different abilities: by the "common ground" approach, both slots would have positive costs; by the "cheapest form" approach, both slots would be free (one, because it doesn't include any changes from the base; the other, because the benefits and drawbacks would cancel out).

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated....

 

Dataweaver, that's it, exactly.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated....

 

Hmm. In that case, perhaps the Base Form should have all of the Complications of all the forms combined (the absolute worst case combination), and all of the slots that don't have a particular one of those Complications should buy it off (and that should be part of the cost of that slot).

[dataweaver]

Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated....

 

That would resolve the problem of negative-cost slots, and would reduce the problem of zero-cost slots to the single case where one of the forms is the "worst of all worlds", with no redeeming qualities relative to any of the others.

 

Of course, another thing being neglected here is that the other forms look different (usually). This is why I had indicated using a mixture of Multipower and Shape Shift: the former (or some variation thereof, such as what we've been discussing) would address the differences in capabilities; the latter would cover such things as the ability for, say, a wolfman to throw off his pursuers by ducking around a corner and transforming into an innocent little boy.

 

But the Shape Shift cost structure doesn't mesh as well as I'd like with the Multiform-based capabilities cost structure. If it was a straight "x points per alternate appearance", it would fit nicely. OTOH, the ability to Shape Shift into large classes of abilities dovetails nicely with a VPP-based alternative to what we've been talking about - this would let you do Beast Boy from the Titans. (OTOH, coming up with a "worst of the lot" package for someone who can turn into any animal might be its own problem.)

 

And Multiform has other features not reflected here, ranging from a tendency to lose your personality to the possibility that injuries won't carry over from one form to the other. These would have to be reintroduced into the new structure.

 

 

Personal preference: I'd like to see the player be able to write up one form of his choice (i.e., the "base form"), and then spend additional points to be able to switch to other forms, with the cost determined primarily by how many points worth of abilities he can acquire by doing so. Something to the effect of: add up the positive point changes between the base form and the alternate form; add up the negative point changes separately. Find the ratio of negative to positive, and round it to the nearest 1/4; apply that as a Limitation to the "Base Cost" of the positive changes. Once you've got Active and Real Costs for every form, pay for them as if they were slots in a multipower.

 

So a form that has as many bad things in it as good things (relative to the base form) will cost half as much (-1L) as it would have had it had only good things in it. You can then handle quirks such as personality loss and separate damage tracks as limitations and advantages that get applied directly to the slot (assuming that you don't want to charge more for the latter).

[prestidigitator]

Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated....

 

Hmm. So kind of a Side Effects approach. I'm not too worried about looking different because I think that can be a given for any version of the Multiform Power, including any house rules versions we come up with. I wouldn't call these proposals Multipowers; just ways of redoing Multiform based on a Multipower.

 

The thing I like about Chris's version is that, if you didn't allow Limitations on the "reserve", it could serve to reduce the number of points available on the really expensive forms. Of course, you should be able to gain some cost benefit from Limitations. Grr.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated....

 

This MultiPower approach should work just fine. For two or three different forms, it'll be cheaper than RAW, at only 1/10 the cost, but for more than that, it'll get more and more expensive, since you have to pay 1/10 for every form, rather than +5 for double. I'm not saying it's too expensive or too cheap, I'm just pointing out the cost differences. Individual GMs can decide if the price is appropriate for their games.

 

One interesting potential advantage of this approach is that you could use variable slots to create "hybrid" forms. Instead of having just Form A and Form B, you can be anywhere on the spectrum between the two (assuming you're willing to pay 1/5 for the variable slots instead of 1/10 for the fixed slots).

[Ice9]

Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated....

 

I think the logarithmic cost is more accurate though. Having two forms is a define advantage in versatility, and having four forms is even more of one. But having eight forms, while still an advantage, isn't twice as good as having four - you probably already have the basics covered. And having something like 1,000 forms, while definitely useful, certainly isn't 250x as powerful as having four

[dataweaver]

Re: Multiform for Free? Frustrated....

 

True enough. OTOH, the same argument could be made concerning Multipower.