Cost of Levels

[ajackson]

I realized during the 6e discussion board that I didn't really like the way levels were priced in 5e. 6e has changed the pricing, but not in a way that strongly impresses me, so I thought I'd ponder pricing.

 

Basically, 2 CSLs are a multipower consisting of:

10 multipower reserve

2 multi slot: +2 OCV

2 multi slot: +2 DCV

2 multi slot: +1 DC, which we will arbitrarily price at 10.

 

Thus, the natural cost of a level is 8. Limiting to a very broad category of abilities is probably -1/4, limiting it to a broad category -1/2, limiting it to a narrow category is -1, and a single power is -1 1/2.. This argues for:

2 points: single power, OCV only (currently 2)

3 points: large group, OCV only (currently n/a)

4 points: power category, OCV only (currently n/a)

3 points: single power, usable for OCV, DCV, or DC (currently n/a)

4 points: small group, usable for OCV, DCV, or DC (currently 3)

5 points: large group, usable for OCV, DCV, or DC (currently 5)

6 points: ranged or melee, usable for OCV, DCV, or DC(currently 8)

8 points: all combat (currently 10)

 

Given that I've seen 3 point CSLs pretty heavily abused even under old rules, and 8 point CSLs being extremely unpopular even when they were all combat, this seems more balanced. Thoughts?

[JohnOSpencer]

Re: Cost of Levels

 

I'll nitpick a little to start. Technically, the Damage class 'slot' would not be variable (multi), you can't use it with any of the other slots, so the cost is 7.5, which we can round to 8.

 

Now that's out of my system.

 

I have to agree that I'm not a big fan of the new CSL cost breakdown...but only in superheroic games. In any game that uses NCM, it's no big deal. But no one will use 10 point levels until their OCV/DCV levels are maxed.

 

Your system definitely looks promising, but it would take a lot of testing of both your system and the base system to know for sure.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Cost of Levels

 

I'll nitpick a little to start. Technically, the Damage class 'slot' would not be variable (multi), you can't use it with any of the other slots, so the cost is 7.5, which we can round to 8.

 

Now that's out of my system.

 

I have to agree that I'm not a big fan of the new CSL cost breakdown...but only in superheroic games. In any game that uses NCM, it's no big deal. But no one will use 10 point levels until their OCV/DCV levels are maxed.

 

Your system definitely looks promising, but it would take a lot of testing of both your system and the base system to know for sure.

 

I love statements like "no one will ever" - I play in several groups where The option to cause damagecwith CSLs is used a lot and an important factor in how CVs and DCs are bought.

 

But hey thanks for letting me know how I plan on spending my points - saves me some time.

[JohnOSpencer]

Re: Cost of Levels

 

I love statements like "no one will ever" - I play in several groups where The option to cause damagecwith CSLs is used a lot and an important factor in how CVs and DCs are bought.

 

But hey thanks for letting me know how I plan on spending my points - saves me some time.

Here's a news flash...everyone posts from their point of view. It would waste a great deal of time to post that before everything. By now, I think everyone gets your point as you post the same thing every-where. You can at least try not to sound like dick every time you do. All you do is piss off people who are actually trying to comment on the topic at hand. I have absolutely nothing against you, your group, how you play or anything. If you don't mean to come off sounding like a dick, add a smiley or something:)

 

Back to the topic at hand. I totally discounted the possibility of using levels for damage as no one in my group (even the GM, me) has ever done it. I wasn't a fan of the 5E way of handling it. I still think that the lower point cost levels are way better, I can see some use in the 10 point levels. I'm still not sure I'd buy them in a superhero game, they may not be as bad of deals as I thought.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Cost of Levels

 

I just don't like absolute statements. I think if people said "I would never" instead of "No one would ever" we could save a lot of grief. In the first statement you have expressed a personal opinion - in the second you have projected that personal opinion onto others. I consider the difference important.

 

But whatever.

 

Here's what you can do with 10 Points.

+1 OCV, +1 DCV

or

+1 Combat Skill Levels in All Combat

 

The person who purchased the CSL can't get a bonus in both columns at once. But they can move things around as needed - and they can add damage.

 

Up the points to 20 and you have the following options:

+2 OCV

+2 DCV

+1 Damage Class

+1 OCV, +1 DCV

 

sure the straight CV guy has +2 OCV, +2 DCV all the time. But he doesn't have the option of causing Damage. Which can be significant.

 

Is it worth it? Maybe.

[JohnOSpencer]

Re: Cost of Levels

 

As I said, I understand where your coming from (in both cases), I just think you (as a veteran HERO board member) could phrase things a lot less antagonistic for the rest of us. Don't want to scare off someone who doesn't have thick skin.

 

Back to levels(sorry ajackson, for the rant). It seems like the 10 point levels get more worth it the more you have and the more attacks you have.

 

Your proposed levels might be too cheap if someone has a bunch of different attacks. But we won't know unless we test. My PCs might be converting their characters to 6E after this Sat (depends on their vote). If so, I'll see if we can give it some testing. Maybe if I explain that levels can be used for damage, they may try it out.

[the fox]

Re: Cost of Levels

 

to nitpick the nitpicker, can't you add 1/2d6 to your attack, that is 1/2 a DC?

I'd much prefer a flexible skill system, where I can assign each CSL to separate bonuses.

Perhaps in the rules it states '2 CSL equals 1 DC'; is this just an inflexibilty in the rules?

 

The math is elegant and undeniable, making excellent use of limitations of -1/4, -1/2 and -1 to find whole number solutions for the 'true cost' of skills, and actually shows a more varied, 'real benefit cost' skill system!

It's also easy to see how 8 and 10 pt. levels are '+2 over-priced', 2 and 5 pt. levels remain the same, and 3 pt. levels are a '-1 bargain' for their utility! Bravo!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Cost of Levels

 

I just don't like absolute statements. I think if people said "I would never" instead of "No one would ever" we could save a lot of grief. In the first statement you have expressed a personal opinion - in the second you have projected that personal opinion onto others. I consider the difference important.

 

But whatever.

 

Here's what you can do with 10 Points.

+1 OCV, +1 DCV

or

+1 Combat Skill Levels in All Combat

 

The person who purchased the CSL can't get a bonus in both columns at once. But they can move things around as needed - and they can add damage.

 

How can getting +1 OCV OR +1 DCV equate to always having +1 OCV and +1 DCV? Can the 10 point level also add MOCV or MDCV, giving it options not available to the guy who just bought his CV's up?

 

Up the points to 20 and you have the following options:

+2 OCV

+2 DCV

+1 Damage Class

+1 OCV, +1 DCV

 

sure the straight CV guy has +2 OCV, +2 DCV all the time. But he doesn't have the option of causing Damage. Which can be significant.

 

I could also buy a Mulipower with a 10 point pool with variable slots including +2 OCV, +2 DCV, +2 OMCV, +2 DMCV - that brings me to 16 points so far, and leaves 4 points for slots adding +1 DC to each of 4 attacks for the same 20 points.

 

I agree, however, that much of the discrepancy in valuing combat skill lvels is the infrequency with which they are considered to be used for extra damage. A Martial Artist, say, might be much better off buying skill levels with Martial Arts (or with HTH combat in general) than buying MA damage classes and more OCV and DCV.

 

Many attacks can enhance your OCV by Spreading, where 1 DC is lost to gain 1 OCV, a different ratio than that provided by levels. Which comparison is most appropriate? No idea, but the two are tough to reconcile. I wonder what bonus DC's purchased with the Side Effect of reducing OCV or DCV would cost.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Cost of Levels

 

It is a simple fact that not all options will be the best choice all the time for all characters in every game.

 

But then - that's why we have Options. To choose what works best for us in any given situation. I personally find the ability to get an extra DC or two in with CSLs to be a significant bonus; but then we use that option all the time.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Cost of Levels

 

I too liked the old cost structure for CSLs. It makes sense that 8 points gives you a choice between OCV, DCV, and a tiny contribution to damage, when 10 points gives you both OCV and DCV. I think if CSLs and SLs had been left at their 5E costs and structure, it would have balanced better with the new CV Characteristic costs.

[JohnOSpencer]

to nitpick the nitpicker, can't you add 1/2d6 to your attack, that is 1/2 a DC?

I'd much prefer a flexible skill system, where I can assign each CSL to separate bonuses.

Perhaps in the rules it states '2 CSL equals 1 DC'; is this just an inflexibilty in the rules?

 

Interesting point. While I might allow something like that as GM, the rules don't let you purchase 1/2 DC. Some powers may but, in general, 1 DC is the smallest increment of damage.

 

The math is elegant and undeniable, making excellent use of limitations of -1/4, -1/2 and -1 to find whole number solutions for the 'true cost' of skills, and actually shows a more varied, 'real benefit cost' skill system!

It's also easy to see how 8 and 10 pt. levels are '+2 over-priced', 2 and 5 pt. levels remain the same, and 3 pt. levels are a '-1 bargain' for their utility! Bravo!

I agree, the more I think about it, the more I want to try this. Now if I can just get my PCs to remember they can use skill levels for damage...

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Cost of Levels

 

to nitpick the nitpicker, can't you add 1/2d6 to your attack, that is 1/2 a DC?

I'd much prefer a flexible skill system, where I can assign each CSL to separate bonuses.

Perhaps in the rules it states '2 CSL equals 1 DC'; is this just an inflexibilty in the rules?

I don't know about 6E, but in 5E you could not buy 1/2 of a Damage Class. You sometimes got 1/2 a DC from STR, but that's the only way. While a GM could allow you to purchase 1/2 a DC (or get one from 1 CSL) with Normal Damage it wouldn't work with Killing Damage, where one DC is 1 pip, two is 1/2d6, and 3 is 1d6. It just doesn't work out. Despite not having the rules I highly doubt Steve has changed this.

Hope that helps.

 

EDIT: Could you purchase or add 1/2 DCs in 4th, (that's what you play, right?), or was the structure so different that there isn't a good comparison?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Cost of Levels

 

to nitpick the nitpicker' date=' can't you add 1/2d6 to your attack, that is 1/2 a DC?[/quote']

 

No - you cannot. 1/2 Damage Class does no exist in the system.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Cost of Levels

 

g-a, does 1/2d6 normal damage still exist from STR or was that changed in 6E? (I know that's not the same as 1/2DC, I'm just curious as I don't have 6E yet).

[ghost-angel]

Re: Cost of Levels

 

yes, 3 points of STR still provides 1/2D6 of Damage. It's the anomoly of the system IMO.

 

To address the "no 1/2 Damage Class", that is specifically addressed in the Damage Adding Rules.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Cost of Levels

 

I don't see a problem extrapolating the damage chart out to +1, +1/2d6, etc. We do this for purposes of attacks which cost more than 5 points per 1d6 and for advantaged atacks (eg. application of the damage adding rules to advantaged attacks), so what's the big deal if someone wants to pay 3 points for another 1/2d6 Blast?

 

Or, for that matter, use one level to add that same 1/2d6 damage?

 

That said, I agree that there is no such thingh as 1/2 DC by the books.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Cost of Levels

 

I don't mind 1/2 Damage Classes.

 

I find it a PITA that STR gets them but the rest of the rules expressly forbid them. The system should make up it's mind - 3 points = 1/2 Damage Class or They Don't Exist. It's an unappreciated schism.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Cost of Levels

 

It would still be tough to port a half DC to a 10 point power (3 points for +1, maybe?), and to a 15 point power, but we have that wonderful "damage adder DC chart" to exrapolate from, so there's no reason it couldn't be done. 3 point per 1d6 abilities become 1 point for +1, 2 for +1/2d6 (Aid, at 6 points, can be 2 points per level).

 

I definitely agree this should not be something available to STR, but not to anything else.

[GMumford]

Re: Cost of Levels

 

I realized during the 6e discussion board that I didn't really like the way levels were priced in 5e. 6e has changed the pricing, but not in a way that strongly impresses me, so I thought I'd ponder pricing.

 

Basically, 2 CSLs are a multipower consisting of:

10 multipower reserve

2 multi slot: +2 OCV

2 multi slot: +2 DCV

2 multi slot: +1 DC, which we will arbitrarily price at 10.

 

I don't have 6E yet, but what about OMCV or DMCV. 5E CSLs could also be used to bounce an attack (5ER 377). I seem to remember 5E CSLs doing other things too, but I can't recall what. You may be missing a few MP slots which would make CSLs a better deal.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Cost of Levels

 

Mental Skill Levels are a subset of Combat Skill Levels, and bought separately. They follow a 1/3/6 progression, and can add Damage Class/Effect to Mental Powers as well as OMCV and ODCv. Except the 1pt level is OMCV only.

[Edsel]

Re: Cost of Levels

 

I can see no place in the new rules that say that you can buy a 5-point level for all DCV. However if I look at the size templates in the back of book one, it is made pretty clear that you can do just that. It is fairly obvious that the 5-point all OCV level still exists as well even though it is never expressly permitted or prohibited in 6E (at least not that I can find).

 

Therefore for 20 points you could buy +2 OCV and +2 DCV of skill levels and have the choice of opting for +1 Damage Class and +2 DCV instead. If you bought +2 Overall Combat levels for 20 points you could only do either: +1 Damage Class, or some combination giving you a total of +2 split between OCV and DCV. This makes the first option much more attractive.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Cost of Levels

 

a 5pt +1 Skill Level for DCV is called +1 DCV Characteristic.

a 5pt +1 Skill Level for OCV is called +1 OCV Characteristic.

 

Skill Levels are expressly for being able to switch, and add damage.

[Edsel]

Re: Cost of Levels

 

But 5-point CSL still exist. Better to not buy up your OCV Characteristic and just buy a bunch of 5-point OCV levels then you can change them out for damage when you wish to do so. If you are surprised you can't use the levels but then if you are surprised you can't attack anyway.

 

I'll simply put caps on the number of levels characters can buy to avoid this. Of course since I house rule that your OCV and DCV characteristics must be bought to a minimum of your DEX/3 it shouldn't be as much of a problem anyway.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Cost of Levels

 

The 5pt CSL does this:

+1 OCV or +1 DCV or Add Damage (requires 2 CSLs) with a Large Group (a Multipower with more than 3 slots, a Martial Art with more than 3 maneuvers, Only HtH, Only Ranged are the examples given).

 

a 5pt +1 OCV applies to ALL Attacks

a 5pt +1 DCV applies to ALL Attacks

 

It is obvious the OCV/DCV bonuses granted by a 5pt CSL do not match the OCV or DCV bonus given by buying straight. But that 5pts allows you to move the CV between the two.

 

Make it 10 points and you can add a Damage Class too.

 

Also - when Stunned you get half your Base DCV and your CSLs go away completely and totally.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Cost of Levels

 

I can see no place in the new rules that say that you can buy a 5-point level for all DCV. However if I look at the size templates in the back of book one' date=' it is made pretty clear that you can do just that. It is fairly obvious that the 5-point all OCV level still exists as well even though it is never expressly permitted or prohibited in 6E (at least not that I can find).[/quote']

 

You can't buy DCV-only CSLs now because the way of raising your DCV like that is now to spend 5 points to increase your DCV Characteristic by +1. You could probably make those Non-Persistent or something to make them simulate CSLs.