fair cost for strength that isn't strong

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

Due to play balance issues' date=' no higher SPD, higher DEX, more skilled character like a MA is =ever= going to be allowed to have the sheer brute power of a Brick.[/quote']

 

When I review characters, I look at play balance from all angles. Superior offense could be offset by reduced versatility, reduced defenses, reduced mobility, etc.

 

What prevents the 50+ STR Brick learning a bit of MA? Why not get a CHoke Hold, Nerve Strile and HKA when your STR immediately bumps them to competetive level attacks? Normally, the MA DC's to raise them are too expensive, but when STR boosts everything, this seems like a reasonable build. Why can't a Karate student become a Brick instead of a much more skilled Karate master? It's hardly an unreasonable concept!

 

At some point that smacks of too much min-maxing or of character concept abuse.

 

OK, now we're at the point where buying MA DC's for a character specialized in MA's is min-maxing or concept abuse, but wanting to combine the benefits of MA damage classes with the benefits of high STR is not, resulting in the convoluted "all benefits of STR except lifting" model.

 

To return to the thread title, "What's fair", in YOUR games, I suggest -0 is fair. The character is getting all the benefits of an MA DC when he buys +5 STR, plus more, so the price should be higher than the 4 point cost of an MA DC. Either that, or you need to lower the price of MA DC's and other abilities derived from STR to offset the extra benefits you have provided to STR with no price adjustment.

 

10 STR MA taking 6+ MA DCs so they can dish out Brick sized Strikes is abusive for more than one reason. Especially if they expect to also have the DEX' date=' SPD, etc usually associated with a MA.[/quote']

 

I prefer to look at the whole character, not one facet in isolation. It could be abusive. It may not be.

 

Play balance requires that

(chances to attack)*(chance to hit)*(damage done when you hit)

is approximately constant for characters that have spent equal CP on the same category of attack.

 

Versatility is also an issue for attackers. MA's often have higher SPD to dodge, block or DFC, not to attack more often. Of course, this depends on playstyle - in some games, every character stands toe to toe and slugs it out, never using a phase for defensive actions instead of attacking.

 

Giving a more dexterous' date=' higher SPD, more skilled character the ability to do the same damage as one lesser in those categories is not fair. [/quote']

 

Again, the whole character is relevant, not bits and pieces in isolation.

 

Cap's physical stats are not as high as you are making them unless in your world stat inflation has resulted in "normal" Olympic athletes with stats of 30 if you are staying true to canon source material.

 

If you are pushing Cap into physical stats +5 above what your game world's "normal" Olympic athletes have, you are indeed pushing him into being a Brick/MA. ...and making him nonhuman enough that his appeal to the Man On The Street will be significantly less.

 

Hero defines "peak human" as 30 and anything higher as Superhuman in physical stats. It defines "highly exceptional human" as 21+, and "normal human" as 20-. A human with a 30 would certainly be "legendary" - and Cap IS "Legendary". I probably wouldn't go with 30 across the board, but that is "Peak Human" by the Hero definition.

 

...Then you haven't got Bricks that are being played well enough!

 

I don't pile extra abilities onto STR, and I don't allow the Brick to be any more omnipotent, the best chocie for any situation, than I do any other archetype. Nor do my players build to create a Combat Drone Champion - they build interesting characters with strengths and weaknesses.

 

Well played' date=' Bricks are =very= versatile; and the higher their STR, the more versatile they become.[/quote']

 

I thought they had to have lower SPD and DEX, and lower chances to hit. And more STR means further reductions. Are you now going back on that claim?

 

+6 MA DCs is abusive. At the =very= least' date=' I'm going to FORBID +11 DCV Martial Dodges! *shudder* [/quote']

 

Good thing DC's don't add to CV. Or is this another change you made to the rules and now are finding causes balance problems? Maybe you should try running the game as written before making a bunch of pseudo-realistic changes that have unanticipated ripple effects throwing out play balance.

[Ki-rin]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

Err...what? Extra DCs for Martial Arts do not add to CV' date=' ever. They add to damage, or to the bonus Strength of certain maneuvers (e.g. Martial Disarm, Martial Escape, Martial Grab). Never ever to OCV or DCV. Maybe you're confusing them with CSLs?[/quote']

D'Oh! I have to stop posting when I'm too tired...

 

=OF COURSE= MA DC's can't be used for purely defensive maneuvers like Dodge or Dive For Cover. That's been true since at least 3ED.

 

The =actual= problem I was alluding to is what happens if a MA can take lot's of MA DCs +and+ CSLs.

Then their sheer flexibility can make them outrageously munchkin like in play.

 

IME letting MAs buy more than 2x their base DC in MA DCs or letting them get more than ~2-4 CSLs (and 4 is =BIG=) starts being imbalancing in play.

Especially so if said MA is already high on the DEX and SPD scale relative to other characters.

 

Again, sorry for the stupid mistake in the previous post.

[Ki-rin]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

surprised that Find Weakness has not come up yet...

Find Weakness, like Missile Deflection/Reflection and any other (!) or (Stop!) Power, has always been something that a GM has to pay close attention to in order avoid damaging the play experience.

 

Moderate amounts, IF IT IS IN LINE WITH THE CHARACTER CONCEPT, can enhance play by increasing the variety of things that can happen during play.

 

Go overboard and you destroy the game balance and the play experience for at least someone in the room (including possibly the GM!).

 

Bottom line: characters should be fun to play; and if conceived to be effective in combat they must be play balanced against their peers who have spent equal CP on being good in combat.

[Ki-rin]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

Scanned back through and saw that - wow - that does make the faux strong Martial Artist officially a crazy efficient build. Ultimately that would seem to, if you were to allow it to affect figured characteristics, reduce the value of Not for Lifting as Strength now has expanded utility. Taking away lifting reduces it less that it would normally.

 

I think I might well be done with this one, I do pity the players that go with Mentalists and Energy Projectors or even just built using the rules; they're going to be left a bit in the dust point-wise.

Actually, Mentalists and EPs tend to be even more dangerous than Bricks or MA.

 

Particularly if they do not have to be physically within arms reach or have LOS to use their powers.

...and if they do not need to be =either= physically within arms reach or to have LOS, they can be downright ludicrously powerful.

 

Mentalists and EP properly played tend to run all over Bricks and MA of the same CP build cost.

Unless or until the Bircks or MA can successfully attack them. Then they tend to be toast.

[Ki-rin]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

Why? We've already agreed Thor and Captain America work fine on the same team. I'm pretty sure we'd agree that Thor's defenses and attacks are significantly higher than Cap's. I haven't noticed that Thor misses very much; in point of fact he's an extremely skilled warrior even by Cap's standards.

...and in the Avenger's Cap's role is more as Team Leader and overall strategist and tactician for exactly the reason that Cap is not as useful in situations where the raw power of Iron Man, Thor, Vision, or Wonder Man is.

 

OTOH, if you want something done =quietly= and as surgically as possible, you send Cap and the other non bricks instead.

 

That's the way it should be. Each kind of character concept has a different role in which it shines; and having access to a wide variety of them is synergistically better than the sum of their individual roles as long as they work as a team.

 

My thought is that this player brought you a well-thought-out character concept and asked you to build it. He wanted a character that had to think and use skill rather than raw power to accomplish his goals; which I think is entirely admirable. It seems to me it's unlikely he didn't realize he might be lower in several categories but still wanted to play that character as conceived. Maybe you ought to stop trying to shoehorn him into your view of what is balanced when it's not even clear "balanced" is what the player wants.

100% agree.

 

I spoke quite extensively with the player to make sure we both had the same understanding of the character concept before I started doing anything to model them using HERO game mechanics.

 

I'm doing the exact opposite of trying to "shoehorn him into my views".

[Ki-rin]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

When I review characters' date=' I look at play balance from all angles. Superior offense could be offset by reduced versatility, reduced defenses, reduced mobility, etc.[/quote']

We 100% agree.

 

What prevents the 50+ STR Brick learning a bit of MA? Why not get a CHoke Hold, Nerve Strile and HKA when your STR immediately bumps them to competetive level attacks? Normally, the MA DC's to raise them are too expensive, but when STR boosts everything, this seems like a reasonable build. Why can't a Karate student become a Brick instead of a much more skilled Karate master? It's hardly an unreasonable concept!

Every character concept has to be both interesting/fun to run while at the same time not ruining anyone else's interest/fun.

 

That's ultimately what I mean by "play balance".

 

As for pure Bricks learning MA, there's at least two in game controls on this:

1= Bricks and MA approach life and combat differently.

Bricks who can do things like lift planes, throw tanks, and rip bank safe doors off their hinges are not usually of the mind set to be MA.

 

2= As someone else noted earlier, TOO MUCH STR GETS IN THE WAY OF DOING MA. Choke holds pop heads off. Grips Crush bones or destroy other structural components. Nerve strikes shatter things instead of numbing them.

Precision of effect necessarily becomes more difficult as your margins of error shrink due to the amount of power you are used to using by default.

(not to mention the problems of being precise when your attacks cover larger amounts of target area.)

 

Meta-game, there are issues of play balance that must be enforced to avoid destroying the game for other players by stepping too much on their roles or schticks. Or by having a super munchkin so outclass others that the others cease to enjoy themselves.

[Ki-rin]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

I thought higher STR meant lower SPD and DEX' date=' and lower chances to hit. And more STR means further reductions. Are you now going back on that claim?[/quote']

Nope. I meant what I said.

 

But as Trebuchet correctly noted, high amounts of STR give a character a multi-purpose tool all by itself to compensate, both in and out of combat, for having less stats or abilities in other ways.

 

In effect, Brick class STR is the original EC, MPP, or VPP of HERO.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

STR isn't going to boost the effect of NND's, KA or Martial Flashes but DC's/levels will. Which is why I mentioned it.

 

Bloodstone I believe (and I could be wrong) Str does add to your KA just that it takes 2 normal DC to equal 1 killing DC.

 

Btw I thought that it never made sense that you couldn't add str to your nnd martial manuever. But if you bought an nnd on a HA then you could add so many points of str for free. (I think it was upto the unmod ? Gotta look at the book.) I know that this created a lot strife with the people I was gaming with at the time.

 

Don't get me wrong the Martial Arts is great in Hero, I just think that it has alot of inconsistances.

 

Ki-Rin as a side note, I agree with the -1/4 lim for str and I too have had trouble with it.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

But if you bought an nnd on a HA then you could add so many points of str for free.

 

STR can only be added to a HA w/NND if it also had the Does Body Advantage.

 

Per the FAQ:

http://www.herogames.com/rulesFAQ.htm?ruleset=&section=&keywords=ha+nnd&dateString=

 

Q: If a character applies NND (or, by logical extension, AVLD) to a Power that adds damage from STR, like HA or HKA, does the NND effect also cover the damage added by STR?

 

A: Characters may not apply NND to HA unless the HA also has the Does BODY Advantage, in which case the STR dice are governed by the rules on 5ER 408. If the STR dice can apply, they become part of the NND effect; a character with the proper defense takes no damage from any of the dice. NND should only be applied to HKA if Does BODY or the No STR Bonus Limitation are applied as well.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

Thanks Hyperman I was thinking of the UMA 4th. Glad to see that it was changed.

[sbarron]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

I think by definition, a rear naked choke is not a NND attack. Because with a rear naked choke, if you squeeze hard enough, you can crush the throat or tear the head off. It therefore is an attack that can do Body damage, and can not be an NND. I'd argue that "Choke Hold" is a special move that prevents that additional damage from being possible, and is therefore not the same as the rear naked choke, or whatever choke-hold you want to simulate from the real world.

 

The NND Choke-Hold from Hero is probably better defined as some sort of nerve or airway "pinch," that can only result in unconciousness (unless held long enough to switch to the drowning rules). I'm not aware of any such moves in the RW, but such things are not unheard of in the fictional subject matter Hero is attempting to emulate.

 

I've never had a problem with how Choke-hold operates in any of my games. But if its a problem for Ki-rin because of how RW chokes differ from Hero's Choke-hold, I think he might benefit to consider these distinctions.

[prestidigitator]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

What the heck?! You can't put a NND on a HA unless you buy Does Body?! What if you don't want your NND HA to do Body damage?

 

Fortunately I think this is fixed by the adding damage rules in 6E, where Str will simply add at a lower rate because of the AVAD/NND Advantage.

[prestidigitator]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

I think by definition' date=' a rear naked choke is not a NND attack. Because with a rear naked choke, if you squeeze hard enough, you can crush the throat or tear the head off. It therefore is an attack that [u']can[/u] do Body damage, and can not be an NND. I'd argue that "Choke Hold" is a special move that prevents that additional damage from being possible, and is therefore not the same as the rear naked choke, or whatever choke-hold you want to simulate from the real world.

 

The NND Choke-Hold from Hero is probably better defined as some sort of nerve or airway "pinch," that can only result in unconciousness (unless held long enough to switch to the drowning rules). I'm not aware of any such moves in the RW, but such things are not unheard of in the fictional subject matter Hero is attempting to emulate.

 

I've never had a problem with how Choke-hold operates in any of my games. But if its a problem for Ki-rin because of how RW chokes differ from Hero's Choke-hold, I think he might benefit to consider these distinctions.

 

Hmm. I think if you wanted to you could probably Multiple Attack with a Choke/Choke Hold and another attack that does Body damage, like a Squeeze to the head (neck). I think the issue of interpreting a particular physical move isn't going to matter much because the player simply chooses the Maneuver(s) to perform and goes with the effects from there. It's between him and the GM how to interpret those descriptively.

 

On a side note, if a PC has Grabbed a particular "limb" (like the head), what are people's thoughts on Hit Locations (for games that use them)? Would you automatically give Squeeze attacks in later Phases the benefit of the particular Hit Location or area of the body? Would the attack roll suffer the Hit Location OCV modifier, or would you rule that that was dealt with in the initial Grab attack roll? For a default Grab (two arms), would you give the poor Hit Location damage multipliers for the hands/arms, or allow generalized damage? Hmm. I'd probably include the Hit Location penalty for balance, but maybe I'd give the holder the choice of doing generalized damage if they miss by less than half of that penalty or something. Likewise I'd probably let the attacker do generalized damage if they didn't want to take advantage of the particular Hit Location(s) of the limbs they had grabbed.

[archermoo]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

Hmm. I think if you wanted to you could probably Multiple Attack with a Choke/Choke Hold and another attack that does Body damage, like a Squeeze to the head (neck). I think the issue of interpreting a particular physical move isn't going to matter much because the player simply chooses the Maneuver(s) to perform and goes with the effects from there. It's between him and the GM how to interpret those descriptively.

 

On a side note, if a PC has Grabbed a particular "limb" (like the head), what are people's thoughts on Hit Locations (for games that use them)? Would you automatically give Squeeze attacks in later Phases the benefit of the particular Hit Location or area of the body? Would the attack roll suffer the Hit Location OCV modifier, or would you rule that that was dealt with in the initial Grab attack roll? Hmm. I'd probably include the Hit Location penalty for balance, but maybe I'd give the holder the choice of doing generalized damage if they miss by less than half of that penalty or something.

 

In general unless you rolled a hit location or took the -OCV for a called shot you don't get the benefit of the modifiers in the Hit Location Chart. Or at least that is my call, and I seem to remember the rules saying something to that effect, though I'll certainly admit I could be wrong.

[sbarron]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

Hmm. I think if you wanted to you could probably Multiple Attack with a Choke/Choke Hold and another attack that does Body damage' date=' like a Squeeze to the head (neck). I think the issue of interpreting a particular physical move isn't going to matter much because the player simply chooses the Maneuver(s) to perform and goes with the effects from there. It's between him and the GM how to interpret those descriptively.[/quote']In the instance of the OP, it seems to matter a lot, because he says he is modeling specific RW martial artists and has friends with lots of experience with RW martial arts. The disconnect for them seems to be that they think the NND "Choke-hold" in the rules can't cause Body damage in Hero, but can cause Body damage in the RW.

 

So for them, the player isn't simply choosing a maneuver and reading the effect. He's choosing a maneuver, disagreeing with the effect, and attempting to model what they think the in-game effect should be based on RW experience.

[archermoo]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

In the instance of the OP, it seems to matter a lot, because he says he is modeling specific RW martial artists and has friends with lots of experience with RW martial arts. The disconnect for them seems to be that they think the NND "Choke-hold" in the rules can't cause Body damage in Hero, but can cause Body damage in the RW.

 

So for them, the player isn't simply choosing a maneuver and reading the effect. He's choosing a maneuver, disagreeing with the effect, and attempting to model what they think the in-game effect should be based on RW experience.

 

This is of course the problem with picking the maneuver based on the name rather than the effect of the maneuver. For the most part names in Hero are there to give you an easy way to refer to the different powers/maneuvers/skills/etc. The important part is the in-game effect of said powers/maneuvers/skills/etc. If something doesn't have the effect you are looking for, you likely picked the wrong thing.

[Ki-rin]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

STR isn't going to boost the effect of NND's' date=' KA or Martial Flashes but DC's/levels will. Which is why I mentioned it. I believe (and I could be wrong) STR does add to your KA just that it takes 2 normal DC to equal 1 killing DC.[/quote']

Mild correction.

 

RAW, STR will boost the damage of a KA using a STR powered =weapon= (sword, staff, spear; but not Bow, M-16, etc) as well as NA.

 

Otherwise the above is correct RAW.

...and it makes no physical sense.

 

BTW, I thought that it never made sense that you couldn't add STR to your NND martial manuever. But if you bought an NND on a HA then you could add so many points of STR for free. (I think it was upto the unmod ? Gotta look at the book.) I know that this created a lot strife with the people I was gaming with at the time.

 

Don't get me wrong the Martial Arts is great in Hero, I just think that it has alot of inconsistances.

Yep. Those inconsistencies bothered both myself and my gaming group enough that we started to look for ways to resolve them while still keeping HERO system balanced.

 

Ki-Rin as a side note, I agree with the -1/4 lim for str and I too have had trouble with it.

I'm just doing the best I can to make HERO as good as it possibly can be.

[ghost-angel]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

Mild correction.

 

RAW, STR will boost the damage of a KA using a STR powered =weapon= (sword, staff, spear; but not Bow, M-16, etc) as well as NA.

 

Otherwise the above is correct RAW.

...and it makes no physical sense.

 

Incorrect. His post was referring to Martial Maneuvers that do NND, Killing or Flash Damage. STR does not add to those by RAW.

[prestidigitator]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

Str does add to Martial maneuvers that do Killing Damage, at least in 6E.

 

 

KILLING STRIKE

This Maneuver allows a character to do Killing Damage to the target without using a weapon. It includes things like breaking bones, throat punches, snapping a victim’s neck, and so on. Rules regarding adding STR (as if to an HKA) and what defenses apply to Killing Damage apply to the damage done by a Killing Strike.

 

But it is true Str does not add to NND or, I suppose Flash-based, Martial maneuvers while Extra Martial Arts DCs will. Maybe Martial Arts DCs would better be compared to some form of Aid/Succor than Str.

[ghost-angel]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

Since the point of this thread hinges on Figured Characteristics on STR - I'm not using the 6E Rules in any way. The OP doesn't own 6E either, so I don't see that as relevant.

 

But yes, you are correct for 6E.

[prestidigitator]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

Okay, well, make me drag out my 5ER then. As it turns out, this has not changed:

 

 

KILLING STRIKE

 

This Maneuver allows a character to do Killing Damage to the target without using a weapon. It includes things like breaking bones, throat punches, snapping a victim's neck, and so on. Rules regarding adding STR (as if to an HKA) and what defenses apply to Klling Damage apply to the damage done by a Killing Striike.

[ghost-angel]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

Well, there you go.

[Ki-rin]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

Incorrect. His post was referring to Martial Maneuvers that do NND' date=' Killing or Flash Damage. STR does not add to those by RAW.[/quote']

Agreed for NND and FD.

 

Not true for KD =if you are using a STR powered weapon=

 

MA or not, if you are using a weapon powered by your STR, STR does add to damage done by these in RAW.

 

p403 5ER "STR may add to the damage done with melee weapons."

No qualifier about ND or KD.

IMHO, this makes sense with STR powered thrown weapons like spears as well.

(But not missile weapons where the energy is previously stored like Bows or guns.)

 

In campaigns where STR minimums for STR powered weapons are enforced, when and how much STR you can add to the weapons base damage is modified by the rules on p478 5ER "STR Minimums".

 

Adding damage to a KA is 2x the cost of doing so for a NA, so +2d6 ND from STR is only +1d6 KD if added to the weapon of the appropriate type.

 

Also, you can't mix damage types via the STR bonus. You can't add +2d6 ND from STR to a weapon that does KD. Nor can you add KD from STR to a weapon that does ND. And of course NNDs are in a category by themselves.

[prestidigitator]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

Adding damage to a KA is 2x the cost of doing so for a NA, so +2d6 ND from STR is only +1d6 KD if added to the weapon of the appropriate type.

 

Also, you can't mix damage types via the STR bonus. You can't add +2d6 ND from STR to a weapon that does KD. Nor can you add KD from STR to a weapon that does ND. And of course NNDs are in a category by themselves.

 

That's not so. Damage bonuses added by a Maneuver, and Extra DCs purchased for Martial Arts, only add at half the rate to Killing Attacks. Strength adds normally (+1 DC per 5 Str) unless there are damage-affecting Advantages on the KA (which generally there aren't on a Killing Strike Martial Maneuver).

 

By the way, the halving for Maneuver bonuses and Extra Martial Arts DCs seems to be gone in 6E. It appears a DC is a DC for Maneuvers and Extra DCs now too.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

From 5er, page 399:

 

KILLING STRIKE

This Maneuver allows a character to do Killing Damage to the target without using a weapon. It includes things like breaking bones, throat punches, snapping a victim’s neck, and so on. Rules regarding adding STR (as if to an HKA) and what defenses apply to Killing Damage apply to the damage done by a Killing Strike.

and from page 400:

 

+1 DAMAGE CLASS

Characters may improve their Martial Maneuvers by buying Extra Damage Classes. Each Extra DC adds one Damage Class to any Maneuver that does Normal Damage (such as Martial Strike or Martial Throw) (it takes two Extra DCs to add +1 DC to a Killing Damage attack; see page 406), or +5 STR to any Maneuver that grants extra STR for limited purposes (such as Martial Grab).

 

An Extra Damage Class adds to all of a character’s Martial Maneuvers — he doesn’t have to purchase Extra DCs maneuver by maneuver. Characters cannot purchase half an Extra DC, nor apply Limitations to Extra DCs. A character can choose not to use his Extra DCs if he wants to do less damage than normal.

 

and from page 407:

 

STRENGTH AND HKAs

Strength (STR) adds to the damage done by HKAs. A character gets +1d6 to his HKA for every 15 points of STR used with it (or, to put it another way, +1 DC for every 5 points of STR used with it).

 

In Heroic campaigns, when weapons are involved, the character’s STR does not add to a weapon’s HKA damage automatically — it only adds damage if it exceeds the weapon’s STR Minimum (see page 478). For every full 5 points of STR the character has above the weapon’s STR Minimum, he may add +1 DC of Killing Damage (or, for weapons like staff s that do Normal Damage, +1d6 of Normal Damage).