Elemental Controls

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Gary

Remember the "double dipping" aspect when interacting with other limitations. Since you're dividing twice rather than once with a standard limitation, under some circumstances it's possible that the EC is worth more than -1.

 

For example, the 5 power 60 pt EC. Normally it costs 180 pts, a -2/3 limitation. If you made it an OAF EC, then the cost of the EC drops to 90 pts. This is equivalent to a -1.333 limitation in addition to a -1 OAF limitation.

 

While true, the same issue exists with a multipower. Using the ubiquitous 5 full-power ultra attacks at 60 points (normal cost 90, 1 slot costs 1/10 of 60), and adding an OAF, the cost becomes 45 (1 slot now costs 3, or 1/20 of 60). It isn't as visible in multipowers, however, especially if the overall pool has no limitation, due to the relatiovely low slot cost.

[Zed-F]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

While true, the same issue exists with a multipower. Using the ubiquitous 5 full-power ultra attacks at 60 points (normal cost 90, 1 slot costs 1/10 of 60), and adding an OAF, the cost becomes 45 (1 slot now costs 3, or 1/20 of 60). It isn't as visible in multipowers, however, especially if the overall pool has no limitation, due to the relatiovely low slot cost.

 

You can save a lot of points playing for point breaks in multipower slots, if you have some disadvantages on your MP.

 

Supposing I buy a 60 point multipower with a -1 total limitation (e.g. OAF, or OIF with another -1/2, or RSR + Side effects, or whatever) as a supplement for my brick. I don't really need any big slots because most stuff is just leverage for my STR and my basic movement/defense powers, e.g. additional/different movement, additional/different defenses, advantaged HAs/HKAs that I can pump up with STR, utility powers, and so forth, so my plan is to make most slots 30 AP ultra slots. The reserve costs 30 CP. However, most powers I put in it will cost all of 1 CP. If I do find the need for a 60 AP power, no problem -- that will cost 3 points, or 2 if I can find another -1/2 limitation for that slot. I can buy a heck of a lot of brick tricks at that rate. Sure, I can generally only use 2 at once (unless some of them have a semi-permanent effect on the environment, etc.) but you can bet I'll have an answer for any situation I might find myself in. And if I don't, it's trivial for me to remedy it for next time.

 

A 60- point MP with 4 different attacks, 4 different defenses, 3 different movement powers, and 4 utility powers, for 45 CP? What's not to like? Especially if I can double the number of powers in there for another 15 points?

 

Even if you put a -1 limitation on an EC, how many 30 AP powers can you get for 45 CP? Well, it's 7 for the control cost, and each slot costs 7. That makes 6 powers, or 7 if you can scare up some more limitations on some of the slots. With another 15 CP, you could get all of 2 powers more. However, they all cost END, and there will be campaign maxima, so you probably won't have more than one or maybe two defense powers. Plus, you can't use more than one movement type at once, so you probably only will have one movement power in there. Since you can't do multipower attacks in an EC, you probably only want one attack in there as well. What are you going to do with the remainder of the slots?

 

ECs are not strong on versatility -- it's much harder to add additional slots in terms of CP costs, and it's much harder to justify adding additional combat-effective powers since the GM will likely only let you use one or two at a time anyway. The EC player might be better advised to build a slightly smaller EC with only 4-5 slots but higher AP totals for each slot. Either way, he still has to worry about campaign maxima. However, there WILL be times when he wishes he had some powers beyond the 5 he's got in his EC, and his teammates will have to cover the slack. If EC guy has leaping, s/he might operate perfectly well in the city streets, but what if s/he needs to enter a shopping mall or a skyscraper? What about when the adventure takes place underwater? In cloud city, where everything floats & there's not much to stand on? In the city of glass, where landing a leap can tear down the city? In a narrow twisty cave system with not much headroom? A multipower can potentially handle these diverse situations a lot better, especially as a character becomes more experienced. It's not unreasonable for a multipowered Supes-clone to have running, swimming, and leaping, as well as flight (or enhanced flight), in a multipower. Sure, it may cost more to add the ability to use more powers simultaneously, but not by an unmanageable amount -- upping the reserve to 90 AP still only costs another 15 CP, twice what the EC guy needs to add a 30 AP power -- and even so, if he wants to add to everything at once, all he has to do is buy up his base powers rather than spending points on the MP.

 

An EC can be powerful, if you play to its strengths, and circumstances don't disadvantage it -- I'll give you that much, Gary. However, it is NOT the answer to every character conception; there are some things an EC will never be able to do well. I still don't agree that there is any reason to suppose an EC is overpowered relative to all the other ways of getting cost breaks in the system, including MPs.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Zed-F

You can save a lot of points playing for point breaks in multipower slots, if you have some disadvantages on your MP

 

Agreed. The key is getting the point break on the reserve, where the bog points rest.

 

The rest of your post is an excellent summation, but I don't expect it will persuade Gary. To him the ability to use all the slots at once is sufficient to offset all arguments against the Mighty EC.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

What's a reasonable Trigger? Hmmm...How about 2+ BOD of pressure applied to his dermal plating (I think Farkling used that term). You squeeze, the power goes off. Since you have no way of knowing that, he will get the power off.

 

Of course since it's a visible power, I can tell he has a damage shield on.

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

It should be no less, and no more, severe than any other -1/2 limitation. Complete absence of the power is, of course, quite severe, and that is balanced out by its frequency. And if he happens not to have the OIF, he may have to delay any confrontation until it's recovered or rebuilt.

 

If he delays confrontation, then Lariat wins. You've been claiming that if Lariat retreats or even withdraws temporarily that it's a win for Wolf.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

As for targetting, I buy Farkling's explanation - it's covered by the dermal plating. Assuming a "grenade", I'd let it be targetted as he's throwing it as it's then outside the plating.

 

For interest, how often was lariat in serious supwerheroic combat (ie not just an agent Martial Thrown) and did not have her Armor?

 

A few times after capture. And once or twice when it got destroyed.

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

I see...your problem isn't with the basic words, but with their comprehension. In any event, the character can simply land, then shift in his next phase. This is not a difficult concept.

 

And that's his action for the phase. Now Lariat gets to go. You have failed to point out anywhere that Steve approves of having more points active in a phase than the reserve of the multipower.

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Depends how well his other abilities contribute to stealth.

 

Which we don't know and you're only speculating.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

One drain and you're not faster than him, and in any case he can take corners. Based on the power and flexibility you attribute to Leaping, it clearly should not be a half cost movement power. That's more unbalanced than anything the EC can do.

 

Yeah he'd be faster than me, if he chose not to attack. And you're still assuming that he'll get his drain off before Lariat gets to act.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

"Depending on special effects". We could just call them "going off on contact". In any case, missile deflection costs you your phase, and you have no way of knowing howq long he can keep this up (ie how many charges he has)..

 

If you're going to give Wolf such a huge advantage as having extra points to buy multipower slots specifically to target Lariat, I don't see how you can complain that Lariat knows something about Wolf as well.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

This comes down to the nature of his cybernetic systems. "Unbreakable" would seem a reasonable way to simulate the fact they cannot be accurately targeted. This is likely why the character in question uses Restrainable in the first place. We'll go with Farkling's approach and Focus the defenses through the same OIF Cybernetic systems; let's give him 25/25 defenses since it seems pretty clear DEF is higher in your campaign with Lariat's 32. The Multi therefore benefits from DEF 25.

 

Unbreakable is meant to simulate one of a kind artifacts like the One Ring or Captain America's shield.

 

Explain to me how an enemy can remove cybernetics in 1 turn out of combat? After all, you're big on conception.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

1/2 x 32 = 16 x 1/2 (up) = 8. And since I'm assuming he selects an ambush location with care, may as well assume you lack the space for a running start. The stretching (whatever remains after his drain) may require him to be further up, but 9" = 16" as far as range penalties (the topic of discussion) goes.

 

Again, you're assuming that Wolf ambushes Lariat. Why do you constantly make that assumption?

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

This multipower is permitted in Farkling's campaign. Based on his discussion points historically, I believe the character's power structure will be well justified. You seem to assume that force tendrils will be fully legitimate (although I have noted others with concerns about your spatial awareness processing speed) but no one else might have a decent character conception.

 

Again Mr Pot, you don't have a leg to stand on when arguing about conception. Farkling's original structure had 2 attacks and restrainable. You're the one changing it to OIF and adding in 11 slots with grenades.

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Her can use one AT A TIME. We've addressed the Focus issue - armor through cybercomp[onents outside the Multi would resolve the problem until/unless you get him out of combat. A character could certainly buy these without a focus. 60 points with 4 charges = 3 points per slot, a bit more expensive but not much. And still not approaching the cost of a new EC slot.

 

He can correct the "plummet" with another 2 points in his base power, again not overly costly. It's enough to hiver with, and lob grenades down from 16" (more than you can leap after the first drain).

 

Can we each devise a scenario where our "pick" would win? Sure. That m,eans they're more or less balanced. Of course, I'm going only from Wolf's multipower where we know Lariat's full 350 points, but that's not the issue. Maybe we assume Wolf has 3/4 physical damage reduction and 5" teleportation - suddenly, your grabs seem much less effective.

 

The point was to compare Multipower vs EC, was it not? You still have not demonstarted how an EC is a cheaper approach to accomplish what this character accomplishes. Your best approach costs an extra 14 points, a fair percentage of the cost of the multipower itself.

 

If I wanted to design a character to take out Lariat, how tough would it be? Let's say 16d6 Mind Scan, 0 END (120 points) plus 20d6 Mind Control, Telepathic Commands, 1/2 END (150 points). That leaves 80 points. Use 64 for a 42 Ego, 16 for +8 REC. He has a 2 speed and no defenses. He Mind Scans Lariat from his luxury condo in the Cayman Islands, then Mind Controls her (average roll of 70 - better to say "dominates her". He can retain her under control until she makes an ego roll at -6 (assuming she is violently opposed, and he got an average roll). He spends 6 END on the mind control x 2 phases = 12 END per turn = his recovery. Lariat is now his character.

 

The point is that we can alaways devise a character and/or a scenario to take another character out. This discussion should be focused on the EC "excessive value" issue, not whether Lariat can or can't pull any given scenario out of the fire. If Lariat is overpowered, the EC is not the primary reason.

 

I'm not the one dragging every power construct in this thread and attempting to beat Lariat with them.

 

And if I wanted an abusive one shot power, there are plenty of other cheaper ways than the mind control. Such as extradimensional travel usable as attack to send targets to the 9 Hells. Or the rocket punch. 1" superleap usable as attack with enough megascale to send the target into orbit. Cost would be 3 pts or 5 pts if you want it area effect with large area. Or even something as simple as spending 12 pts for 8 penalty skill levels to allow someone to target the head with his regular attacks.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

I thnk we've adequately demonstrated that you and I differ on whether the EC is, in fact, a freebie. It is a reward for a tight character conception, as opposed to having (as you say) batarangs, swing lines and superleap, or flight, heat vision, strength and invulnerability (or is Superman not Genre enough for you?)

 

And Human Torch has a "tighter" character conception than Batman or Captain America?

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Why all those powers derive from my innate mystical nature, my nanobot technology or the fact I'm a human solar cell, Gary. Characters with a wide array of disparate powers commonly have a linkage in their character conception, just not one tight enough to justify an EC (or their point costs are too disparate, or some don't cost END, or are special powers).

 

Again, if you feel it's abusive you can always disallow special powers or 0 end powers from taking the limitation. I don't see why you're having such a hard time comprehending this. Of course in your campaign, you already allow 0 end powers in a EC so I don't know why you're making a big stink about this.

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Please point me to MY statement in this regard - you are the wone always coming back to the Batman example, Gary.

 

You're the one suggesting that people would slap this limitation on all their powers, no matter how disparate.

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

You see a huge point leakage. Based on the commentary to date, however, you are the only one. Zornwil has proposed some enforcement of common linkage (ie the ability to shut the powers down without a superpower). No one else has proposed any amendment whatsoever. Hmmm...is the problem the system, or is it Gary?

 

It's habit. Nobody here is suggesting changing characteristic costs either, even though str and dex are overpowered.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

"Utter disaster" is another of use of your words, not mine, Gary. My perspective is that the system as is works, so why mess with it. Yours is that the present structure provides such excessive point savings that we need to change this one facet of the game to "correct" it.

 

If you don't think that removing ECs is going to cause much of a change, then why have you been arguing so vehemently against it?

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

What does lariat's EC cost under your system, compared with the present cost of purchasing Spatial Awareness outside the EC? Current cost of EC + Spatial + Extra Limbs = 91 (82 + 9 to take Awareness out of EC).

 

+1/4 limit instead:

 

Limbs = 4

Field = 24

Strecth = 21

Leap = 24

Deflect = 17

Aware = 16

 

Total 106.

 

15 points.

 

Gary, in your rebuttal of Wolf's Multi vs EC "dilemma", you felt the 14 extra points, eliminating one of his powers, was a trivial amount. I don't think eliminating 15 points from Lariat would be any less trivial.

 

I didn't say that 14 pts was trivial. I said that spending those 14 pts to allow flight at the same time as an attack would make it much more effective. Who's putting words in who's mouth?

 

Of course the amount of savings would depend on how many powers an EC already has and what limitations already exist.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

While true, the same issue exists with a multipower. Using the ubiquitous 5 full-power ultra attacks at 60 points (normal cost 90, 1 slot costs 1/10 of 60), and adding an OAF, the cost becomes 45 (1 slot now costs 3, or 1/20 of 60). It isn't as visible in multipowers, however, especially if the overall pool has no limitation, due to the relatiovely low slot cost.

 

Yeah, but a multipower needs a limitation that affects every power in order to get a decent point break. An EC can get a decent point break simply from having a limitation on a single slot.

 

A 60 pt multipower slot costs 6 pts. He saves merely 3 pts by putting a -1 limitation on a single slot that doesn't affect the entire multipower.

 

A 60 pt EC slot costs 30 pts. He saves 15 pts by putting a -1 on that slot which doesn't affect the entire EC. Huge difference.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Zed-F

You can save a lot of points playing for point breaks in multipower slots, if you have some disadvantages on your MP.

 

Supposing I buy a 60 point multipower with a -1 total limitation (e.g. OAF, or OIF with another -1/2, or RSR + Side effects, or whatever) as a supplement for my brick. I don't really need any big slots because most stuff is just leverage for my STR and my basic movement/defense powers, e.g. additional/different movement, additional/different defenses, advantaged HAs/HKAs that I can pump up with STR, utility powers, and so forth, so my plan is to make most slots 30 AP ultra slots. The reserve costs 30 CP. However, most powers I put in it will cost all of 1 CP. If I do find the need for a 60 AP power, no problem -- that will cost 3 points, or 2 if I can find another -1/2 limitation for that slot. I can buy a heck of a lot of brick tricks at that rate. Sure, I can generally only use 2 at once (unless some of them have a semi-permanent effect on the environment, etc.) but you can bet I'll have an answer for any situation I might find myself in. And if I don't, it's trivial for me to remedy it for next time.

 

A 60- point MP with 4 different attacks, 4 different defenses, 3 different movement powers, and 4 utility powers, for 45 CP? What's not to like? Especially if I can double the number of powers in there for another 15 points?

 

It's interesting that you're taking -1 limitations since it's the most efficient, dropping each slot by 200%. Without limitations, the multipower would cost 105 pts. And doubling the slots would cost an extra 45 pts. Just making an observation.

 

Originally posted by Zed-F

Even if you put a -1 limitation on an EC, how many 30 AP powers can you get for 45 CP? Well, it's 7 for the control cost, and each slot costs 7. That makes 6 powers, or 7 if you can scare up some more limitations on some of the slots. With another 15 CP, you could get all of 2 powers more. However, they all cost END, and there will be campaign maxima, so you probably won't have more than one or maybe two defense powers. Plus, you can't use more than one movement type at once, so you probably only will have one movement power in there. Since you can't do multipower attacks in an EC, you probably only want one attack in there as well. What are you going to do with the remainder of the slots?

 

ECs are not strong on versatility -- it's much harder to add additional slots in terms of CP costs, and it's much harder to justify adding additional combat-effective powers since the GM will likely only let you use one or two at a time anyway. The EC player might be better advised to build a slightly smaller EC with only 4-5 slots but higher AP totals for each slot. Either way, he still has to worry about campaign maxima. However, there WILL be times when he wishes he had some powers beyond the 5 he's got in his EC, and his teammates will have to cover the slack. If EC guy has leaping, s/he might operate perfectly well in the city streets, but what if s/he needs to enter a shopping mall or a skyscraper? What about when the adventure takes place underwater? In cloud city, where everything floats & there's not much to stand on? In the city of glass, where landing a leap can tear down the city? In a narrow twisty cave system with not much headroom? A multipower can potentially handle these diverse situations a lot better, especially as a character becomes more experienced. It's not unreasonable for a multipowered Supes-clone to have running, swimming, and leaping, as well as flight (or enhanced flight), in a multipower. Sure, it may cost more to add the ability to use more powers simultaneously, but not by an unmanageable amount -- upping the reserve to 90 AP still only costs another 15 CP, twice what the EC guy needs to add a 30 AP power -- and even so, if he wants to add to everything at once, all he has to do is buy up his base powers rather than spending points on the MP.

 

An EC can be powerful, if you play to its strengths, and circumstances don't disadvantage it -- I'll give you that much, Gary. However, it is NOT the answer to every character conception; there are some things an EC will never be able to do well. I still don't agree that there is any reason to suppose an EC is overpowered relative to all the other ways of getting cost breaks in the system, including MPs.

 

I agree that ECs aren't strong on versatility. I simply think that beyond a -1/4 level, that it's free points. With a multipower, you're paying for the additional flexibility. Of course pre-5th edition, it was all free points for ECs since there wasn't a drain one drain all effect.

[Zed-F]

Originally posted by Gary

It's interesting that you're taking -1 limitations since it's the most efficient, dropping each slot by 200%. Without limitations, the multipower would cost 105 pts. And doubling the slots would cost an extra 45 pts. Just making an observation.

 

The purpose of taking a Multipower, according to the way I design characters, is because you want to take a limitation on all slots. If I don't want a fixed limitation on the slots, I should be looking at a different framework, such as a VPP. (Or an EC.) Just my opinion, of course, but it works for me.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Gary

Of course since it's a visible power, I can tell he has a damage shield on.

 

You can tell he has a power activated (or is shorting out, I suppose). When the Human Torch flames on, how do you know whether that's a force field, a damage aura, a special effect for his flight or "Visible" for his EB?

 

Originally posted by Gary

A few times after capture. And once or twice when it got destroyed.

 

Re OIF: I take it this is less than 1/3 of the time. Did you get extra benefits you shouldn't have for your -1/2 limitation? And since the Armor would always be in between you and the attack, how did it survive most combats with its paltry 8 DEF?

 

Originally posted by Gary

Unbreakable is meant to simulate one of a kind artifacts like the One Ring or Captain America's shield.

 

Leaping is meant to simulate strong legs and Stretching sumulates people who stretch. Reasoning from effect, if a focus cannot be targeted in combat and destroyed, it is unbreakable.

 

Originally posted by Gary

Explain to me how an enemy can remove cybernetics in 1 turn out of combat? After all, you're big on conception.

 

Cybernetics wqere a very old example for Focus. They may be readily removed by a Grab (OAF) because they're external and not affixed. Perhaps they are affixed, but can be removed (or disabled) with some time - a turn - and effort (OIF; personal - no one else can use them). Perhaps they are subdermal and require efrfort to remove (IIF). Perhaps they are simply not remavable (not a focus at all).

 

Originally posted by Gary

And if I wanted an abusive one shot power, there are plenty of other cheaper ways than the mind control.

 

Yeah, but mind Control has better aftereffects (and fewer stop signs). I would allow a character with Mind Control (though 20d6 is pushing it...)

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Gary

Yeah, but a multipower needs a limitation that affects every power in order to get a decent point break. An EC can get a decent point break simply from having a limitation on a single slot.

 

A 60 pt multipower slot costs 6 pts. He saves merely 3 pts by putting a -1 limitation on a single slot that doesn't affect the entire multipower.

 

A 60 pt EC slot costs 30 pts. He saves 15 pts by putting a -1 on that slot which doesn't affect the entire EC. Huge difference.

 

Only because the "base limitation" for the Multipower is larger. A multipower with various levels of cost (eg. some 60 point powers, some 30 point powers) is more efficient than an EC with such varainces as well.

 

Frankly, there's little point placing a -1 limnitation on one slot - for 3 points, why limit it at all? Yeah, 60 point EC Guy saved 15 points by limiting one slot. he still pays 165 points for five slots (four normal and one with a -1 limit; 30 x 5 + 15).

 

MultiPower Guy can avoid the "Drain one drains all" limit on his Multipower. take a 120 point pool, 5 60 point ultra slots, a 120 point Ultra slot and a 60 point slot with a -1 limit. Hhe can do anything EC Guy can do (but only 2 at a time), multiple power attack if two 60 slots are attacks, use a massive 120 point "extra slot" as desired and buy new slots way faster than EC Guy He can buy 2 new slots, plus de-limit the third one, for your cost of buying off that -1 limitation on one slot.

 

And if he puts "drain one drain all", he gets back 33 points - enough for a swack of new slots! But why bother - he's versatile enough.

 

Which approach is preferable depends on the slots, of course - more attacks (or other mutually exclusive slots) makes the Multipower preferable. Maybe he's got three movement powers and 3 attack powers (plus that 120 point mystery slot) and buys his defenses outside. More "use all at once" powers makes the EC preferable, of course.

 

Now, the Multi can include natural 0 END slots, and the EC can't. He can also fire off a 12d6 EB with a 12d6 Flash - EC Man has a bit of trouble with that since he can't Multiple Power Attack with his EC slots. This doesnt mean the multipower is superior - it's different, wit its own advantages and limits.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Gary

And Human Torch has a "tighter" character conception than Batman or Captain America?

 

No, he has a more tightly linked group of powers. That's what an EC is all about. You can't bust a fire hydrant and eliminate Batman or Captain America's combat abilities. Get rid of Torchie's flame, and he's done. His schtick is obvious, and carries some pretty obvious ways to depower him.

[zornwil]

How many circles has this argument gone in?

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by zornwil

How many circles has this argument gone in?

 

Only one...but how many times has it gone around?

 

EDIT: Duplicates deleted; sorry (although extra copies could have been taken as an attempt at humor...)

[Farkling]

1) EC's do not need to be removed because you don't use them Gary...you are free to ignore any STOP or YIELD power in the entire book. Sez so in big letters.

 

2) I like EC's...and I think Multipowers are more flexible. In my games flexibility will actually carry more impact, so I think Multipowers are more powerful IN MY WORLDs.

 

3) IF someone showed up with Superleap, Batarangs, Telescopic UV/IR Vision, Clinging, and Clairsentience, defined as "Bat Powers" EC, my question is "What counters all those as a single special effect?" If it can't meet that criteria in a coherent manner from the player...then I am going to point him at an EC...as I stated about character design for ShadowPlay oh so many pages back.

 

4) Shadow's Multipower as a "formiidable example" in your arguments. It isn't. The character is ex-military and forced retirement and uses outmoded cybertech whose Tempest shielding is getting outdated also. I don't go for you and Hugh ripping Shadow's Multipower to shreds and reclassifyng it to different conceptions, but it's my fault for not posting the whole character, the whole concept, the world description and the campaing plans and the existing opponents. From looking at your writeup for Lariat the campaign limits are different. So, again...apples and bananas with WindRider's EC being treated as a pineapple...irrelevant to your Multipowr / EC conversation.

 

5) The cybernetics CONCEPT as postulated was entirely tight enough for an EC, and would have made the law enforcement mechanics cheaper...but it didn't match his descriptions of his abilities. It would have been an EC with lockout and exclusion limitation on the slots. It also didn't quzlify as an EC combo in my head...the villains and agents are not going to built with Cybernetic EC's.

 

6) I wish to repeat for you GARY and HUGH that the Cybernetic suppression in the ShadowPlay world comes from exposure to elecricity and magnetism, or semi-portable designed law enforcement equipment. Cybernetics can be "switched off" out of combat...so it is listed as restrainable and/or a focus. I suppose in more generic terms Shadow has "power loses certain amount of power" as a limitation with an IIF on some of the abilities...seems too crunchy for the effects. I was holding it up as an example...not a combat ready power. Stop wandering around calling "Grab Grab Grab" like Calvin. Hobbes would have considered my post.

 

7) Incidentally, the "grenades" are a dispersed energy discharge from the Rail Gun. He has a load that the magnetic field converts to a briliiant flash.

 

8) Gary you are free to use EC's or not as you will. You do not need to lobby that they are broken and need to be removed. I like them, and I have a right to use them. I don't use X-Dim movement for all the "undoable" effects people pigeonhole into it...and I have that right also.

 

Now I am going to and review my characters and write down in my character directory somewhere to NEVER post a partial again. And I will hope that Shadow's player doesn't read this mess...he actually felt flexible and versatile in the games. yOu guys have pretty much shredded his concept so thoroughly, that he's going to think I'm cutting him slakc in the game...which will bother him on some level I'm sure.

[Farkling]

No wait...I have another contribution...you can shred this one too. This may be more appropriate to the conversation as it continues in it's dizzy fashion

 

STR 10, DEX 33, CON 20, BODY 15, INT 18, EGO 12, PRE 21, COM 14, PD 10, ED 10, SPD 6, REC 6, END 40, STUN 30

 

Acrobatics, Breakfall, Climbing, Concealment, Converrsation, Defense Manuever IV, Demolitions, Forgery (ID's), KS: Advanced Military Weaponry, Navigation, Seduction, Shadowing, Sleight of Hand, Streetwise, Survival (Tropical), Tactics.

 

MA - Corporate Combat Training (Killing Strike, Disarm, Escape, Strike, Throw)

 

Shield (+5/+5 Armor, OIF, Attack must be percievable)

 

Super Speed (19" Running)

 

50 Focused Plasmatics Multipower (75) (15- Activation, Delayed Phase)

10 m (75) Plasma Beam (4d6 RKA, 1/2 END)

7 m (75) Plasma Torch (3d6+1 RKA, AP, No Range)

10 m (75) Plasma Strobe (10d6 Flash, 1/2 END)

5 u (75) Plasma Emission (2d6 RKA, Damage Shield (+1, Custom), any Hand to Hand)

3 u (75) Pulsed Plasma Spray (6d6 EB, AE-Cone, 1/2 END, No Range)

3 u (75) Internal Plasma Charge (+35 STR, 0 END, Affects Desolid) + (Affects Desolid for 10 STR)

 

50+10+7+10+5+3+3 = 88

 

There...this character has long held his own with the cyebrnetic mercenaries and blended in freely with them in spite of his mutant origins. The few that questioned, he simply put off with evasive answers about really good cybernetics and advanced polytech experiments. He developed high STR (35) in puberty (a la Smallville) and concealed it. He had a radiation accident Friday night, and has lost some PD/ED, persistent STR and a few bits. All the skills remain the same...as did the martial arts...the STR has been an effect of suppressing his mutant abilities. Now, as an EC, this same Multipower is::

25+25+19+25+25+21+25 = 165

And violates the rule on Characteristice in an EC...considering background, I'll let him keep it, but it won't give figured characteristic bonuses (which is automatic - by the book - in the Multipower slot also).

[Zed-F]

Originally posted by Farkling

And I will hope that Shadow's player doesn't read this mess...he actually felt flexible and versatile in the games. yOu guys have pretty much shredded his concept so thoroughly, that he's going to think I'm cutting him slakc in the game...which will bother him on some level I'm sure.

 

[Zed-F]

Originally posted by Farkling

Now, as an EC, this same Multipower is::

25+25+19+25+25+21+25 = 165

And violates the rule on Characteristice in an EC...considering background, I'll let him keep it, but it won't give figured characteristic bonuses (which is automatic - by the book - in the Multipower slot also).

 

I would leave it alone rather than convert it to an EC. It's almost entirely composed of attack powers -- not a good candidate for an EC unless you let him do a massive multiple-power attack with them. Even Gary won't argue that point since he wouldn't allow the multiple power attack either. He's more concerned about ECs with defensive/movement powers in them.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Farkling

6) I wish to repeat for you GARY and HUGH that the Cybernetic suppression in the ShadowPlay world comes from exposure to elecricity and magnetism, or semi-portable designed law enforcement equipment. Cybernetics can be "switched off" out of combat...so it is listed as restrainable and/or a focus. I suppose in more generic terms Shadow has "power loses certain amount of power" as a limitation with an IIF on some of the abilities...seems too crunchy for the effects. I was holding it up as an example...not a combat ready power. Stop wandering around calling "Grab Grab Grab" like Calvin. Hobbes would have considered my post.

 

Seems reasonable. I was pretty much expecting a rational limitation, as your posts do not lead one to believe you're giving points away. I think restrainable is as agood an abbreviation as any.

 

Originally posted by Farkling

7) Incidentally, the "grenades" are a dispersed energy discharge from the Rail Gun. He has a load that the magnetic field converts to a briliiant flash.

 

AHHH...that should end the "deflection" issue.

 

Originally posted by Farkling

Now I am going to and review my characters and write down in my character directory somewhere to NEVER post a partial again. And I will hope that Shadow's player doesn't read this mess...he actually felt flexible and versatile in the games.

 

I think his multipower is a good mix (for the portion of the character I've seen). The Multi was a good example of several powers with differing costs that would not be as efficient (or as "in concept") in an EC. Having the effects behind it doesn't alter the mechanical issue (although I appreciate seeing them as a matter of interest).

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Farkling

This may be more appropriate to the conversation as it continues in it's dizzy fashion

 

I'm going out of town on Thursday - I wonder where this thread will be when I get back two weeks later...

 

Zed-F's comments on the Multi pretty much sum it up - mainly attacks, so EC grants little in the way of benefits for almost doubling the cost.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Farkling

1) EC's do not need to be removed because you don't use them Gary...you are free to ignore any STOP or YIELD power in the entire book. Sez so in big letters.

 

Yep, so why the bashing when I suggest replacing ECs with a -1/4 limitation?

 

Originally posted by Farkling

2) I like EC's...and I think Multipowers are more flexible. In my games flexibility will actually carry more impact, so I think Multipowers are more powerful IN MY WORLDs.

 

In your world, allowing only one framework per character probably keeps things in balance.

 

Originally posted by Farkling

3) IF someone showed up with Superleap, Batarangs, Telescopic UV/IR Vision, Clinging, and Clairsentience, defined as "Bat Powers" EC, my question is "What counters all those as a single special effect?" If it can't meet that criteria in a coherent manner from the player...then I am going to point him at an EC...as I stated about character design for ShadowPlay oh so many pages back.

 

That's the trick. Whether you take an EC or limitation, all powers in the "framework" have to be tightly linked.

 

Originally posted by Farkling

4) Shadow's Multipower as a "formiidable example" in your arguments. It isn't. The character is ex-military and forced retirement and uses outmoded cybertech whose Tempest shielding is getting outdated also. I don't go for you and Hugh ripping Shadow's Multipower to shreds and reclassifyng it to different conceptions, but it's my fault for not posting the whole character, the whole concept, the world description and the campaing plans and the existing opponents. From looking at your writeup for Lariat the campaign limits are different. So, again...apples and bananas with WindRider's EC being treated as a pineapple...irrelevant to your Multipowr / EC conversation.[/i]

 

I'm not the one who immediately grabs every power construct posted here in an attempt to beat Lariat. I was simply responding to Hugh, not as an attempt to bash Wolf.

 

Originally posted by Farkling

5) The cybernetics CONCEPT as postulated was entirely tight enough for an EC, and would have made the law enforcement mechanics cheaper...but it didn't match his descriptions of his abilities. It would have been an EC with lockout and exclusion limitation on the slots. It also didn't quzlify as an EC combo in my head...the villains and agents are not going to built with Cybernetic EC's.[/i]

 

I personally don't think cybernetics are tight enough for a EC. ECs according to published guidelines should be more of an active control of an "element".

 

Originally posted by Farkling

6) I wish to repeat for you GARY and HUGH that the Cybernetic suppression in the ShadowPlay world comes from exposure to elecricity and magnetism, or semi-portable designed law enforcement equipment. Cybernetics can be "switched off" out of combat...so it is listed as restrainable and/or a focus. I suppose in more generic terms Shadow has "power loses certain amount of power" as a limitation with an IIF on some of the abilities...seems too crunchy for the effects. I was holding it up as an example...not a combat ready power. Stop wandering around calling "Grab Grab Grab" like Calvin. Hobbes would have considered my post.[/i]

 

Again, it was Hugh who immediately took Wolf to be his poster child for beating Lariat.

 

Originally posted by Farkling

7) Incidentally, the "grenades" are a dispersed energy discharge from the Rail Gun. He has a load that the magnetic field converts to a briliiant flash.

 

Fair enough.

 

Originally posted by Farkling

8) Gary you are free to use EC's or not as you will. You do not need to lobby that they are broken and need to be removed. I like them, and I have a right to use them. I don't use X-Dim movement for all the "undoable" effects people pigeonhole into it...and I have that right also.

 

Have I ever said that you couldn't use ECs in your campaign?

 

Originally posted by Farkling

Now I am going to and review my characters and write down in my character directory somewhere to NEVER post a partial again. And I will hope that Shadow's player doesn't read this mess...he actually felt flexible and versatile in the games. yOu guys have pretty much shredded his concept so thoroughly, that he's going to think I'm cutting him slakc in the game...which will bother him on some level I'm sure.

 

Sorry.

[Pteryx]

...

 

...What have I started? -- Pteryx

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Gary

Yep, so why the bashing when I suggest replacing ECs with a -1/4 limitation?

 

Why the vehement defensiveness when someone suggests they may be balanced as is?[/b]

 

Originally posted by Gary

In your world, allowing only one framework per character probably keeps things in balance.

 

Logically, wouldn't you expect Farkling's characters to have primarily EC's if these are more efficient/effective than multipowers? I think Farkling's "one framework only" restriction provides an environment which should bring any significant over- or under-pricing to light. Based on his comments on how characters have been built, EC's do not appear to dominate.

 

Gary, you posted your suggestion that EC's are underpriced in a public forum. To me, that implies you were looking for feedback on the idea. When anyone (and there were quite a few) suggested other frameworks were equally efficient, when used for the effects they are best suited to, such that your solution was overkill at best and unnecessary at worst, you became very defensive. "EC's just grant free points" sounds like a suggestion the system as a whole should be changed. Many of us disagree with that contention.

 

Contrast your statement that EC's are free points to Farkling's common statements about multiple frameworks, which always read to me as "I acknowledge they are allowed under the system, but I don't like the results, so I made the change solely for my campaign." Farkling has never made a contention that allowing multiple frameworks grants free points, or too many options. He has stated he doesn't like the design results, so he changes the rule for his campaign.

 

Your posts read like you are advocating a rules change, where Farkling's read that he disallows multiple frameworks in his campaigns (much like most GM's impose some form of damage cap, defenses cap, etc.) I don't read his posts as advocating this restriction as something everyone else should implement. Your posts are much stronger in that regard, bascially saying "EC's are broken and here is what they should be replaced with".

[Gary]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Logically, wouldn't you expect Farkling's characters to have primarily EC's if these are more efficient/effective than multipowers? I think Farkling's "one framework only" restriction provides an environment which should bring any significant over- or under-pricing to light. Based on his comments on how characters have been built, EC's do not appear to dominate.

 

It's not quite a fair test because Farkling's world appears to have limits on many things. In a campaign with many limits, a 60 pt multipower with 5 slots would obviously be better than a straight 60 pt attack since the extra points saved can't be used for further combat effectiveness. A fair test would be if every 5 active points in slots counts as 1 DC toward damage caps. Then we'd see which framework is more popular.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Gary, you posted your suggestion that EC's are underpriced in a public forum. To me, that implies you were looking for feedback on the idea. When anyone (and there were quite a few) suggested other frameworks were equally efficient, when used for the effects they are best suited to, such that your solution was overkill at best and unnecessary at worst, you became very defensive. "EC's just grant free points" sounds like a suggestion the system as a whole should be changed. Many of us disagree with that contention.

 

I think you've been very defensive as well. This whole thread, you've been like a pit bull in attacking everything I've posted. I think I've done a good job in pointing out how abusive ECs could be. You may disagree. It's your opinion.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Contrast your statement that EC's are free points to Farkling's common statements about multiple frameworks, which always read to me as "I acknowledge they are allowed under the system, but I don't like the results, so I made the change solely for my campaign." Farkling has never made a contention that allowing multiple frameworks grants free points, or too many options. He has stated he doesn't like the design results, so he changes the rule for his campaign.

 

Your posts read like you are advocating a rules change, where Farkling's read that he disallows multiple frameworks in his campaigns (much like most GM's impose some form of damage cap, defenses cap, etc.) I don't read his posts as advocating this restriction as something everyone else should implement. Your posts are much stronger in that regard, bascially saying "EC's are broken and here is what they should be replaced with".

 

Have I at any point said anything disparaging about Farkling's campaign house rule? In fact, I specifically stated that his house rule would greatly limit the abusiveness of ECs. It seems like you're putting words in my mouth again.

[Farkling]

I've pulled out my old (written, printed, stored) campaign folders and character files for a browse...

 

Statistical Database this is not. However, these are 1/2 4th edition, 1/2 5th edition, and a few older ones. We have postulated elsewhere that the EC costs are still very close to the original price structure.

 

My observation::

 

1) At street level with NCM and enforced AP caps (say, 250 pt characters and 30-40 AP caps)

I get mostly Multipowers and straight characters and an occasional Gadget VPP...but the street level games don't encourage EC's..they are against play environments normally (the psychics and cybers prefer foci and MP's)

 

2) At supers levels with 250-500 it depends on the cap. At 40-75, designs come in with EC's that fail the special effect test frequently. They get turned into Multipowers (once to a VPP). Functioning EC's are actually more prevalent in a 30-50 AP point range, and disappear at the 75 AP range....MP's run to campaign max AP. Multipowers have mostly ultra slots, and movement OR defense is outside the framework. Soemtimes both at the high end. (ie...75 u slots for attacks, outside is a 30 AP defense and a 40-60 AP movement abilitiy collection)

 

3) 350-500 pt Supers with AP from 60-100. Multipowers start to show up far more...and are ALWAYS pushing the limits. EC's are dying out in single framework games. In multiple frameworks, they are acquiring the "Defense/Move" Frameworking...attacks for the EC's are outside the EC, or showing up in a seperate MP, as (demonstrated? advocated?) by the game designers. Multipowers are running ultra and multi slots. MPA attacks are common from Multipowers. Multipowers for the "dual framework" characters are drained/suppressed as the EC is (for no limitation bonus), and have the same special effects restrictions.

 

**Looking at these...I wonder if it might be feasible to just stuff those selector attack powers inside the EC...allowing a discount for the reserve only, like the combined powers price structure. hmmm**

 

4) 500-1000 pt Supers. Galactics. 200 AP limit. (hah...I only have three characters in the sample group, this'll be skewed). 2 Characters have three frameworks each. Attack Multi, Defense Multi, Movement Multi. Character 3 has a 200 AP EC (Hyperspatial Anamolies) with 5 powers in it...and he owns an Asteroid with engines on it, complete with thermal core tap, solar arrays, and a good sized (illegal) antimatter reactor. The weapons systems are as good as the other characters personal attacks. He spent more on that than his EC slots.

 

That's it. No more input.

[Zed-F]

Re: ...

 

Originally posted by Pteryx

...What have I started? -- Pteryx

 

The thread that never ends, of course!