Teleportation Move-By ?

[Rakshasa]

Hi,

 

I'm trying to build a Teleporter PC with a twist. I want his main power to be the special effect for most of his abilities, so I'm considering having his teleportation damage everything in its path. As a move combined with an attack, it looks like a move-by, but really isn't, as velocity has nothing to do with it and multiple targets can be hit. I think I need help.

 

How would you construct this ?

 

Rakshasa.

[altamaros]

Re: Teleportation Move-By ?

 

Originally posted by Rakshasa

Hi,

 

I'm trying to build a Teleporter PC with a twist. I want his main power to be the special effect for most of his abilities, so I'm considering having his teleportation damage everything in its path. As a move combined with an attack, it looks like a move-by, but really isn't, as velocity has nothing to do with it and multiple targets can be hit. I think I need help.

 

How would you construct this ?

 

Rakshasa.

 

bonjour

 

This is something classical, check in the old posts or look in the various write ups of Nightcrawler on the Net

 

normally you should do that with two separate powers :

 

the teleportation (your main power)

 

and then an EB or a RKA with an area of effect (line) to simulate the damage :

 

(for 30 base points, assuming that you have less than 36" of T-port)

 

EB 6D6/RKA 2D6 (energy)

+ Area of Effect (line: length 9" ): +1

+ length x 4 for line (total: 36"): +1/2

+ indirect: +1/2 (to ignore walls and obstacles on the path)

- No range : -1/2

- linked (teleportation): -1/2

- line of effect must follow teleport path: -0

 

base points : 30

active points : 90

total cost : 45

 

i counted the last limitation for -0 for this reason : normally the linked limitation should imply that the amount of damage is proportional to the distance but, there the AoE is "proportional" to the distance thus there is a twist of the rules so i compensate through the 0 lim.

[Rakshasa]

Thanks fo the reply. I considered the structure you submitted, but it doesn't resolve the main problem : how do you account for the fact that a move and an attack share the same action ? If it takes half a phase, that's certainly an advantage. If it takes a full phase, then it is a limitation (because you cannot combine either powers with any other action). But how much is it worth ? Which power gets it ?

 

I thought the subject wasn't new, and hoped this was resolved without bending the rules too much.

 

Rakshasa.

[Magmarock]

Just Link it

 

If you link the AE to the Teleport, it'll go off automatically every time you Teleport, whether its a 1/2 move or a full move. As far as limitations go, if your Teleport always does damage, you might think twice about if or when to Teleport, since innocent people may get hurt... or property damage could happen, giving your PC a Reputaion for being dangerous and destructive.

[Rakshasa]

The AoE linked with teleport always goes off...if it's constant. I have no problem being required to use a full phase to combine a move and an attack, but paying for a constant power that triggers only once in a while, that's a bit too dear (and my GM imposes AC limits, so the damage would end up ridiculously low).

 

This damaging teleportation will cause severe collateral damage, but that's the idea. I think the teleport path could be made curved (maybe AoE : any shape with restrictions), allowing the character to spare innocent bystanders but not obstacles and walls in general.

 

Rakshasa.

[prestidigitator]

Why not use Desolidification with something like Only While Moving, and an attack which Affects Physical World with which you do the Move By? Expensive, but then, you are trying to do a powerful thing.

[Rakshasa]

Yes, that is another perspective at this power, one that maybe describes best what's really happening. The cost is not that high, since the desolidification would not protect against attacks.

 

My problem then is : how much do you pay for a (basically free) move-by that is based neither on STR nor on velocity ?

 

Rakshasa.

[Lemur866]

Well, if the "move-by" isn't based on STR and velocity, then it isn't really a move-by. It is some sort of EB or RKA or other power, with a construct of Damage Shield, Area Effect, or some such added in.

 

You want the character to do a certain amount of damage if he moves near another character. That isn't a move-by, it's an area effect attack that follows the character around.

 

Imagine the character had flight...you'd be leaving behind a damage trail, pretty easy to simulate. The twist is that you're doing teleportation, which doesn't have a "trail", and doesn't cover any distance. Suppose the character conception is that he is converting himself to energy and beams himself somewhere else and everything in the path of that energy is going to be damaged.

 

One solution is simply to buy flight with the damage trail and a few other advantages to make it work and just CALL it teleportation. If your energy beam is blocked by walls, or has to break through walls, then flight is better anyway. If you do it this way things get simpler and you don't have to buy line area effect powers. Just a one hex area, centered on character, personal immunity, only while moving, continuous attack. There are plenty of characters that have "damage auras" that cause some sort of damage to anyone who gets near them.

[Krim Haneth]

My question is how is the special effect of your teleportation working? Knowing and defining that would be my first thought, ie... what is going on when you teleport that would cause damage? That AE thing is neat, and it would be a half phase action by the way. because the movement by teleportation is the action, the linked AE is a very nasty special effect of the teleportation. I would just buy another teleport to make up for the fact that I really wouldn't want to destroy things when not fighting.

[prestidigitator]

Originally posted by Lemur866

Well, if the "move-by" isn't based on STR and velocity, then it isn't really a move-by.

I disagree. Is there anything that says you can't do a Move-By with an attack that doesn't add Str to damage? I just wouldn't give an increase from velocity, either. That doesn't mean you can't still do a Move-By to carry off multiple attacks on opponents as you go by. How about EB, No Range?

 

Originally posted by Rakshasa

The cost is not that high, since the desolidification would not protect against attacks.

Then it may even not be a Desolidification. Flight with a Limitation of Must End on Level Surface at 0 Velocity? Maybe even Running with Must End WIth 0 Velocity?

[Rakshasa]

Originally, I was trying to make a teleporting character, and thought of adding an attack that would stay in concept. Obviously that proves harder than I expected.

 

I still want the character to go through things, so desolidification or teleport are mandatory.

 

I also like the move-by way of resolving multiple attacks, it simulates well the character trying to intentionaly move through many targets. But I won't pay a huge sum of points to achieve what the regular move-by provides for free : I'd like to be able to do my share of villain bashing !

 

Maybe a HTH, no STR would qualify for the regular move-by maneuver ? I would gladly trade the velocity bonus damage for the self-inflicted suffering part.

 

Rakshasa.

[Elysea]

Are you expecting to have to make an attack roll on your targets, or just damage them by moving through their hexes?

 

You might want to buy a Multipower Pool and buy a few different movement power slots to represent different ways of achieving this one effect, and then buy a No Range, Area Effect (One Hex), Personal Immunity, Constant EB outside the Multipower and link it to the Multipower?

 

One problem I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around is how your character is "teleporting." If he's actually leaving a trail of damage all along his path, you can simulate that with Teleportation (Must Cross Intervening Space) as the movement power, kinda. But you wouldn't be able to use that movement power to damage a wall by teleporting through it. To pull that off, you would have to buy Desolid, which would then necessitate the hefty Affects Real World adder for the EB. Ditto for damaging bad guys by teleporting through them.

 

You could choose to buy Flight and Desolid Linked to each other and then some Str or HTH Attack witht he Affects Real World adder. But I don't think there's a cheap way to go about it. Which is probably the way it should be -- the ability to move long distances, through walls, or over pits of lava, and simultaneously inflict damage on the environment, probably should be pretty expensive.

[pinecone]

Maybe I'm missing something,but wouldn't a Selective AE HA do the job? Add in a SE;Takes 1/3 of damage inflicted and you get dang close to a moveby....load on the Extra area mods to your AE;Any shape and what is missing?Hmmmmm maybe SE is the wrong limit...dosn't that bypass Def?...try a lesser form of Feedback instead......

[Rakshasa]

Did I mention the campaign is under strict AP limits ? Any sort of heavy advantage will greatly reduce the damage. I think +1 is the maximum I can afford. Anything more and my damage will never get past the average Armor.

 

I think this (somewhat silly) restriction shows the overly cautious nature of HERO.

 

Desolidification used in the way described on this thread would not protect the character at all, but it still would prevent any meaningful attack.

 

And Area of Effect is nice, but too expensive compared to move-by, which would be enough for what I'm trying to do.

 

Rakshasa.

[DigitalGolem]

I created a character like this, back in 3rd ed. (I think.) The teleport power had a RKA linked to it, with the limitation must t-port thru target, but no other advants or modifiers. I didn't think of it at the time, but one way to affect an area with this attack would be to change it to an EB and spread the damage across the "line of transit".

 

There are a few more details about this construction that need to be hammered out, but it was 15 years and two editions ago, and I don't have Fred with me. Anyways, I hope this helps.

 

thanx heaps,

 

DGv3.0

[altamaros]

Originally posted by Rakshasa

Did I mention the campaign is under strict AP limits ? Any sort of heavy advantage will greatly reduce the damage. I think +1 is the maximum I can afford. Anything more and my damage will never get past the average Armor.

except it the damage is NND or penetrating ...

There's plenty of ways to cancel strong defenses

 

Originally posted by Rakshasa I think this (somewhat silly) restriction shows the overly cautious nature of HERO.

You think so ?

One day, try to make a little contest between the players : "the most obscene power on 60 active points". and then test it during a game. You'll be surprised of the result (i tried several times)

[Elysea]

Move-bys are a free maneuver because you have to make an attack roll, you're using your base strength, and if you miss once, you miss every target further down the line of movement.

 

A No Range, AE One Hex, Constant, Personal Immunity Energy Blast is expensive for obvious reasons. Even if you're just using Running and not Teleportation or Desolidification or any other movement power, the ability to run through enemies' hexes and automatically inflict the significant damage you're looking for is exactly the kind of thing that AP limits are designed to prevent.

 

I'd like a permanently Desolidified unicorn Follower who shoots 23d6 Affects Real World Energy Blasts from his horn, but no matter how badly I want it, that doesn't mean there's a way to shoe-horn it into my GM's 70 AP-limit campaign.

[prestidigitator]

Yeah. You're going to have difficulty doing a lot of damage with this kind of attack, no matter how you try to work it. You will probably never significanty touch a "brick" with it, for example.

 

I would still do it if it fits your character's concept; it isn't all about how big and bad your attacks are. It's also about creating cool characters with creative ideas, and using them in imaginative ways during play. Maybe all the villains you run into will have defenses that are too big for your attack to harm them, but perhaps you can Move By all the columns holding up the bridge above you, and get your teammates out before it squashes the baddies into the pavement....

[Rakshasa]

Maybe I'm paranoid, but I feel I have to defend my intentions here : I don't want to gain any special benefit from the power I'm creating here, normally I would be more than happy with a regular EB or plain old fist in the face. The only reason I'm doing this the hard way is to make my main attack "in concept".

 

For a ridiculous amount of points, I could design an attack and take Flight to move-by with, and it would be very close to my goal, except for the part about going through walls.

 

Now because I want that last part (which doesn't really makes the character that much more powerful, he could simply take Teleport on the side), the power construction becomes a nightmare that can only be very weak or very tweaked.

 

To be honest, I don't care if I have a penalty for each target, or miss everyone if I miss one roll. That could be explained within SFX easily. I'm not trying to be extraordinarily efficient here, just moderately efficient.

 

Let's face it : most strange power constructions are either horribly overpowered or horribly underpowered. The HERO system is so paranoid about munchkins that anything resembling a tweak is shot down mercilessly (pointwise), along with many innocent bystanders, while major tweaks still go right under the radar.

 

Rakshasa.

[DigitalGolem]

'shasa;

 

I can appreciate your frustration. However, it's not the system itself that's 'paranoid', it's the way people apply it. It's almost impossible to have a "point limit" of any kind without creating a scarcity situation for players designing characters. But that's a topic for another thread, so I'll get back to your original point.

 

Back on page 1, I suggested a simpler, cheaper way (or two) to make this type of power work. Have you ruled out that idea for some reason? Perhaps I can improve it; let me know.

 

Here's another thought; you might take T-port as a side-effect of an attack. Some GM's might worry about abusing this power, to get a "free move", but a "full phase" or other limitation would eliminate that problem.

 

thanx heaps,

 

DGv3.0

[Rakshasa]

Thanks for looking past my little tantrum, DG.

 

Actually, I saw your suggestion and it seems the more reasonnable for the time being. I'll call it plan B. I think an EB with AoE(Any shape) would do the trick nicely, if it wasn't for the incredibly small area covered. Is there really a reason for limiting AoE(Any area) that much ? It covers only a quarter of the line, and a ridiculous fraction of the other shapes...

 

If I did not offer comment, it was mainly because I had no reproach to formulate (boy does that makes me look bad)...

 

Your other suggestion is nice as well, balancing an abusive limitation with a really strict limitation is original yet fair play and jives well with the AP limit. My GM could even allow it.

 

Rakshsasa.

[DigitalGolem]

Originally posted by Rakshasa

Thanks for looking past my little tantrum, DG.

 

Actually, I saw your suggestion and it seems the more reasonnable for the time being. I'll call it plan B. I think an EB with AoE(Any shape) would do the trick nicely, if it wasn't for the incredibly small area covered. Is there really a reason for limiting AoE(Any area) that much ? It covers only a quarter of the line, and a ridiculous fraction of the other shapes...

 

If I did not offer comment, it was mainly because I had no reproach to formulate (boy does that makes me look bad)...

 

Your other suggestion is nice as well, balancing an abusive limitation with a really strict limitation is original yet fair play and jives well with the AP limit. My GM could even allow it.

 

Rakshsasa.

 

Yes, the "Any Area" advantage is weak, trading off raw power for flexibilty. The actual shape of the effect can be changed every time the power is used. If that's more flexibility than you actually need, then you probably have a good reason to take another limitation, or maybe even reduce the value of the advantage. (+3/4, perhaps, or see the "one shape" limit under Force Wall) Also, the area covered can be doubled by adding +1/4 to the advantage. Sure the whole thing is expensive to begin with, but another +1/4 is as cheap as it gets.

 

I just remembered that there is a "line of hexes" variant on the Explosion advantage which covers a much longer line, but of course the damage drops off with distance. And the +1/4 to double the length would apply here, too. That could do some serious collateral damage!

 

Good luck.

 

DGv3.0

[prestidigitator]

How about this: you could do both a Move By and go through obstacles if only you could mix movement types. I myself would probably let you do this if both your Flight and Teleport had the same speed (or you limited your total movement to the lesser of the two). Base the End on the more expensive of the Movement Powers and be done with it.

 

For example, let's say you have 10" of Flight and 10" of Teleport. Why couldn't you move 3" while attacking 2 opponents, teleport through a 1" wall, and move another 6" while attacking 3 more opponents (for a total of 10" of movement--I believe Move By lets you do a full move). This could just be considered a normal Move By in which you moved 10" total. You just couldn't attack the hexes you happened to teleport across.

 

If your GM doesn't like this, buy them linked. LOL.

[Grailknight]

For the movement part of this power use Tunnelling linked to a small amount of Flight(only to maintain altitude). This will let you go through walls but won't give you much velocity damage. That's the best I can do without a better description of what the character's special effects are.

[ParitySoul]

I'm thinking it would have to be a line. A teleport by definition is going from point A to point B. And the shortest distance between those two points in 3d is a line.