5th Ed: Flying Dodge

[MrAgdesh]

I've just been going through the UMA and noticed what seems to be a particularly broken maneuver; Flying Dodge.

 

I thought I must be mis-reading something so I checked the FAQ. It seems to me that a few points don't tally. Firstly, if the game is simulating attacks that occur roughly simultaneously and that "all the maneuver provides is a DCV bonus" then why does a HtH attack against the dodger automatically fail? It does not seem to make sense giving the +4 DCV bonus and a final distance range modifier and still say that you can attack even if the character moves behind a wall. If a character moves behind partial cover , for example, does he get additional DCV bonuses?

 

I can see how this maneuver works for speedsters or maybe wuxia characters but aborting to movement (especially in the case of speedsters) is suspect. I do like the maneuver somewhat though, but I think it needs some kind of tweak, such as still allowing a HtH attack to at least stand a chance of hitting and maybe just give the +4 DCV bonus without range/cover bonuses ('simultaneous action'). Essentially, allowing the dodge with the proviso of a full move if the character isn't hit and possibly knocked back/stunned/KOed, before resolving the move.

 

 

Just wondering how other people use this in their games and has it proved problematic?

[Trebuchet]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

We have two PCs with Flying Dodge in our Champions campaign and haven't had any trouble with it.

 

I thought it just allowed a Full Move and a +4 DCV; which is obviously nice but hardly guarantees an automatic miss?

[MrAgdesh]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

The auto miss is in respect to a HtH attack.

 

If it’s a HTH attack' date=' the Attack Roll is irrelevant, since the character won’t be in HTH combat range any longer.[/quote']

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

I never got to use it much. But don't forget though (and I may have mis-read it myself) but you can't use the manuever with at least a half-move. So in tight confines the manuever could not be used. Or at least the way I would rule. As to the hth, I would just give the DCV bonus only not range penalties. YMMV as always.

[prestidigitator]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

All you technically need in most cases to cause a HTH attack to fail is a Dive for Cover of 1" distance (Dex roll at -1) anyway. DFC has its own drawbacks, but I've always felt that that was way too easy an evasion in any case, and I always use house rules to moderate it. I guess it's reasonable to treat Flying Dodge similarly to DFC, whichever way you choose to go with it.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

Things to keep in mind about Flying Dodge.

 

It's only listed as part of the Speedster martial art.

A typical Speedster with a multipower can easily have fixed/ultra slot for Desolidification for the same 4 points.

Using it burns an attack action.

[MrAgdesh]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

Its rare, true, but also listed in 'Drunken Clown' MA.

 

Whilst a speedster could just take a Desolidification slot, that won't disengage the character from combat for free, moving him what could be a vast distance away. He could still be affected by powers with the Affects Desolid advantage (say a HA) thus not causing an auto miss because the character is no longer in HtH range.

 

I suppose I'm having problems with this because it allows you to abort to movement. At least with DfC there is some sort of roll for success required.

[Sean Waters]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

Flying Dodge. Grr.

 

DFC. Grr.

[Trebuchet]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

Its rare, true, but also listed in 'Drunken Clown' MA.

 

Whilst a speedster could just take a Desolidification slot, that won't disengage the character from combat for free, moving him what could be a vast distance away. He could still be affected by powers with the Affects Desolid advantage (say a HA) thus not causing an auto miss because the character is no longer in HtH range.

 

I suppose I'm having problems with this because it allows you to abort to movement. At least with DfC there is some sort of roll for success required.

I can't see why Aborting to movement is somehow worse than Aborting to activate defensive Powers.

 

Flying Dodge provides +4 DCV. If the attack hits despite the extra DCV, then it hits. What's the problem?

 

In our campaign it gets used mostly as a way to half move while keeping DCV high. My PC Zl'f has it, but hardly ever uses it. The other MA, Cloud Dragon, uses it a bit more often, but then he also uses Teleport for a substantial portion of his movement.

[Sean Waters]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

I think the general position is that you can not abort to a movement power, but you can abort to a defensive power. Except Barrier. Probably.

 

My understanding, and I have not looked at it for years because of adverse side effects, is that you automatically avoid attacks that you move out of the range of: if you can abort to a movement power then, by definition, that movement power occurs before the attack so you are not there TO attack, which is why you can not generally abort to movement. The +4 becomes irrelevant: like a successful DFC you are simply not there to hit.

 

I'll look it up again when I get home.

[MrAgdesh]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

If I had a Speedster with say a full move of 50", then he could abort to moving 50" away giving a ranged attacker a -8 modifier and still get a +4 DCV. Basically, it allows him to disengage and get the heck out of there as well as maintaining a high DCV.

 

If it didn't automatically make a HtH attack irrelevent, or didn't take the final distance range modifier for a ranged attack, then it might not be too bad - effectively the Full Move occurs after the dodge, so any attack takes the +4 DCV into account, but not the moving away.

 

As it stands it seems to be akin to allowing aborting to Teleport whilst maintaining a Dodge at the same time?

[torchwolf]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

If I had a Speedster with say a full move of 50", then he could abort to moving 50" away giving a ranged attacker a -8 modifier and still get a +4 DCV. Basically, it allows him to disengage and get the heck out of there as well as maintaining a high DCV.

 

If it didn't automatically make a HtH attack irrelevent, or didn't take the final distance range modifier for a ranged attack, then it might not be too bad - effectively the Full Move occurs after the dodge, so any attack takes the +4 DCV into account, but not the moving away.

 

As it stands it seems to be akin to allowing aborting to Teleport whilst maintaining a Dodge at the same time?

 

You can Abort to a Dive for Cover and use Teleport.

Also, you can do this: 2" Running, 0 END, Trigger (When aborting to Dodge).

Both are possible in the RAW, though the latter is as suspect as the Triggered counterattack.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

If DFC is allowed and a character has Megascale movement they only need to attempt 1" of movement with regard to the DFC roll (The 1" automatically becomes the Megascale minimum of at least 1 Kilometer).

 

So the character has a 'get away from any fight' ability.

So what?

 

There are several ways around this.

Present the character with story issues that require them to defend something to large to carry.

[torchwolf]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

Another counter would be a Held Action by the HTH combatant.

[MrAgdesh]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

You can Abort to a Dive for Cover and use Teleport.

Also, you can do this: 2" Running, 0 END, Trigger (When aborting to Dodge).

Both are possible in the RAW, though the latter is as suspect as the Triggered counterattack.

 

I agree that the rules allow an abort to DfC using Teleport, but there are other factors that at least work to balance that form of evasion. The necessary DEX roll for example (with the attacker gaining +2 OCV if you fail it), and the disorientation/prone effect at its conclusion (1/2 DCV until get to feet of get bearings).

 

Flying Dodge as written has none of these factors and allows an infallible get away from a HtH attack with no possibility that the attack will work. I also don't get that if the final distance for range mod is used when calculating DCV against ranged attacks, how running behind full cover will have no effect on the attack.

[MrAgdesh]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

If DFC is allowed and a character has Megascale movement they only need to attempt 1" of movement with regard to the DFC roll (The 1" automatically becomes the Megascale minimum of at least 1 Kilometer).

 

So the character has a 'get away from any fight' ability.

So what?

 

 

Dive for Cover specifically says that you can't use Megascaled movement with it.

[Jhamin]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

I can't see why Aborting to movement is somehow worse than Aborting to activate defensive Powers.

 

Flying Dodge provides +4 DCV. If the attack hits despite the extra DCV, then it hits. What's the problem?

 

I have always handled it like this. If the attacker hits even after the DCV bonus, then the attack hits and the defender moves (assuming they aren't stunned or KOed). If not, the defender avoids the damage & is able to use the movement to reposition himself on the battlefield.

 

Or have I misread something somewhere?

[MrAgdesh]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

I have always handled it like this. If the attacker hits even after the DCV bonus, then the attack hits and the defender moves (assuming they aren't stunned or KOed). If not, the defender avoids the damage & is able to use the movement to reposition himself on the battlefield.

 

Or have I misread something somewhere?

 

Which is how I think I will test run it. A straight +4 DCV bonus, which then allows for the full move assuming no stun, KO, or Knockback.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

I've just re-read the description for Fmove. Specifically the begaining line "a character can perform a manuever with this Element during or at the end of a Full Move instead of just a half move." UMA 5th pg 93 italics me. So this implies that the bonus only is in effect if the charater can move that far. So grabs would be important. Also, I belive that if you have to abort to a manuver, you don't automatically go first. Its a DEX roll.

 

More food for thought.

[prestidigitator]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

I've just re-read the description for Fmove. Specifically the begaining line "a character can perform a manuever with this Element during or at the end of a Full Move instead of just a half move." UMA 5th pg 93 italics me. So this implies that the bonus only is in effect if the charater can move that far. So grabs would be important. Also, I belive that if you have to abort to a manuver, you don't automatically go first. Its a DEX roll.

 

More food for thought.

 

Interesting. Maybe you can't move at all with it if you Abort; just use the +4 DCV part? Perhaps the moving bit is only so you can get the +4 DCV while doing a normal (non-Abort) Full Move, when normally you couldn't (a normal Dodge or Martial Dodge will require an Attack Half-Phase, so you can only do a Half Move before them).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

Dive for Cover specifically says that you can't use Megascaled movement with it.

 

good catch.

[Ice9]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

The way we've been using it, you don't get to auto-avoid an attack that you abort in response to (you do get the +4, but the movement occurs after the attack). You could abort to it before the attack (when the attacker moves toward you), but then they'd be able to do something else with their half phase.

 

On closer inspection, it does let you auto-avoid attacks, but I don't think we'll switch - it's already one of the better manuevers, even without that.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

Interesting. Maybe you can't move at all with it if you Abort; just use the +4 DCV part? Perhaps the moving bit is only so you can get the +4 DCV while doing a normal (non-Abort) Full Move, when normally you couldn't (a normal Dodge or Martial Dodge will require an Attack Half-Phase, so you can only do a Half Move before them).

 

BTW there is a warning that this element could be unbalancing.

 

I think the intent is for Speedsters and Football receivers who move and are hard to hit. To clarify myself, I think the DCV bonus would be only in effect if you could make at least a half move. It would tone down the ability a bit.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

From the FAQ:

http://www.herogames.com/rulesFAQ.htm?ruleset=&section=&keywords=flying+dodge&dateString=

 

If a character has a Held Half Action, may he use it to use the Flying Dodge maneuver from UMA? If so, does that mean he gets a Half Move and the +4 DCV bonus?

 

Yes, and yes.

If a character Aborts to a Flying Dodge, does he get the Full Move worth of movement normally associated with the maneuver?

 

Yes.

Does Flying Dodge work like “Martial Dive For Cover”?

 

No. Flying Dodge functions differently — it doesn’t require a DEX Roll, render a character “prone,” or the like.

 

If a character with Flying Dodge moves out of the way of an area-affecting attack, compare the inches moved to where the attack hits (typically the hex the character was formerly standing in) and the attack’s size — it’s possible that, as with a Dive For Cover, the character’s movement didn’t carry him far enough to get out of the way. If the Flying Dodge’s movement carries him beyond the area covered by the Area Of Effect/Explosion, then the attack doesn’t affect him.

 

If a character uses Flying Dodge to try to avoid a ranged non-area-affecting attack, he still gets to move and still gets a DCV bonus from the maneuver, but he’s not automatically missed — the attacker still gets a roll to hit (unlike with Dive For Cover, where the attack would automatically miss). If it’s a HTH attack, the Attack Roll is irrelevant, since the character won’t be in HTH combat range any longer.

If a character performs a Flying Dodge and goes around a corner so his attacker cannot see him, does that mean his attacker’s attack automatically misses?

 

No. From a dramatic perspective, you have to remember that the combat rules model a highly dynamic situation — two or more characters acting in the midst of battle — with a relatively rigid set of timed and controlled actions. It’s not as if one character moves while everyone else does nothing, then the next person acts, and so on — all the actions in a combat Segment are occurring more or less “at once,” but are resolved in a certain order to manage the game. The attacker’s attack might hit just as the character starts his Flying Dodge or the like. The fact that he declares that he’s moving around an obstacle doesn’t ensure that he’ll get there in time — all the maneuver provides is a DCV bonus.

If a character Aborts to a Flying Dodge against a Ranged attack, what Range Modifier applies?

 

The Range Modifier that would apply for the distance between the attacker and where the character is at the end of the character’s movement.

[prestidigitator]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

From the FAQ....

 

Yuck! There's no way I'd use the official version of that maneuver. That's just wrong.