5th Ed: Flying Dodge

[SteveZilla]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

Personally, I am leaning towards making the rule that only the DCV bonus is what you get if you abort to this maneuver. The "Flying" part had to be done as a willful action, not a "last ditch avoidance" spasm.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

Personally' date=' I am leaning towards making the rule that only the DCV bonus is what you get if you abort to this maneuver. The "Flying" part had to be done as a willful action, not a "last ditch avoidance" spasm.[/quote']

 

Come to thimk about it, I believed that is the way I thoiught it should have worked. And I think that is the best way to handle it.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

A real life flying dodge!

 

 

and here's another!

 

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

I found something that might be even considered worse than flying dodge.

Cricket Escape: +10 STR vs. Grabs; Fmove. UMA 4th pg. 92. according to the description, you can do a full move if you successfully break out of a grab.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

I found something that might be even considered worse than flying dodge.

Cricket Escape: +10 STR vs. Grabs; Fmove. UMA 4th pg. 92. according to the description, you can do a full move if you successfully break out of a grab.

 

Some of the optional rules from 4e Ninja Hero were broken - remember the Double-Basis maneuvers? However, you can do a Full Move after escaping from a Grab if you roll double the grabber's BODY on the STR vs STR check.

 

Cricket Escape: +30 STR (30 Active Points); Only to Escape Grabs (-2), Must follow successful Escape with maximum allowable movement (-1/4). 9 points, 6 END.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

Some of the optional rules from 4e Ninja Hero were broken - remember the Double-Basis maneuvers? However, you can do a Full Move after escaping from a Grab if you roll double the grabber's BODY on the STR vs STR check.

 

Cricket Escape: +30 STR (30 Active Points); Only to Escape Grabs (-2), Must follow successful Escape with maximum allowable movement (-1/4). 9 points, 6 END.

 

 

Did you not see the that I qouted from UMA 4th? As in Ultimate Martial Artist, by Steve Long. The same book is where flying dodge came from and ranged martial arts. (My friends hollered when those rules came out.) And FYI I do remember the double basis, I was to be used only in very specialized type of campaigns. It was eliminated in UMA 4th.

[pinecone]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

Personally' date=' I am leaning towards making the rule that only the DCV bonus is what you get if you abort to this maneuver. The "Flying" part had to be done as a willful action, not a "last ditch avoidance" spasm.[/quote']

 

Thats how I've been doing it..."You can't abort to move" being the internal logic....it's still a useful move, but if you want to move as a defense use Dive for Cover......

[dsatow]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

Since I am at work, I can sit and read the entire thread

 

However, in comparison to the say 3 forms of getting the "heck out of the way"

 

Can prevent a hth attack?

• DFC = Yes if out of hth range
  
• Flying Dodge = Yes if out of hth range
  
• Desol = Yes if not affects desol.
  

 

Breaks haymakers?

• DFC = yes
  
• Flying Dodge = yes
  
• Desol = No
  

DCV bonus?

• DFC = No and you drop to 1/2 DCV
  
• Flying Dodge= +4 DCV
  
• Desol = No
  

 

Prone?

• DFC = Yes, immediately on attempting
  
• Flying Dodge = No
  
• Desol = No
  

 

If you are hit while "getting the heck out of the way" can you use breakfall?

• DFC = No
  
• Flying Dodge = Yes
  
• Desol = Yes
  

 

Assuming no End Cost reduction, does it cost end?

• DFC = Yes, 1 minimum for movement
  
• Flying Dodge = Yes, 1 minimum for movement
  
• Desol = 4
  

 

Any chance of failure

• DFC = Yes with a -1 per 2m traveled.
  
• Flying Dodge = No, regardless of distance
  
• Desol = Not without a limitation
  

 

If you are attacked more than once, can you try again?

• DFC = Generally, yes at additional penalties.
  
• Flying Dodge = Yes, with no penalties
  
• Desol = Yes
  

 

If you fail, can you try again?

• DFC = No
  
• Flying Dodge = yes, I think officially you can continue to "dodge"
  
• Desol = yes, unless a limitation
  

 

Active points

• DFC = 0
  
• Flying Dodge = 4
  
• Desol = 40
  

 

Did I miss anything?

[bigbywolfe]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

Did I miss anything?

 

Perhaps simply clarifying the point you are trying to make.

[Ice9]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

If you are attacked more than once, can you try again?

• DFC = Generally, yes at additional penalties.
  
• Flying Dodge = Yes, with no penalties
  
• Desol = Yes
  

If you fail, can you try again?

• DFC = No
  
• Flying Dodge = yes, I think officially you can continue to "dodge"
  
• Desol = yes, unless a limitation

Not sure about those. As Flying Dodge and DfC take an action, I don't believe you can do them twice on the same phase, successful or not (although you'd still get the +4 DCV from FD). Desolid would stay on until your next phase, so reactivating is unnecessary.

[dsatow]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

Not sure about those. As Flying Dodge and DfC take an action, I don't believe you can do them twice on the same phase, successful or not (although you'd still get the +4 DCV from FD). Desolid would stay on until your next phase, so reactivating is unnecessary.

 

Per 6E2 pg 86: A character can Dive for Cover two or more times in a row provided the special effects and timing allow for that.

 

As for flying dodge, I seem to recall Steve saying something to the effect that so long as the special effects and timing allow, the Flying Dodge is a dodging action and thus can be continued until the person doing the flying dodge runs out of movement.

 

Personally, I think its too cheap for what it does. I'd allow it to be used as a DFC but I'd impose the -1/2m penalty and require a DEX roll.

[prestidigitator]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

I wouldn't count Desolidification. Allowing an Abort to activate Desolidification is, I believe, a GM call, whereas the maneuvers are without a question defensive maneuvers and definitely allow an Abort.

 

The way I've typically handled Flying Dodge is to allow movement as part of it only if you don't Abort (e.g. you do it with a normal action or a held Phase). With a normal Dodge you can make a Half Move and then Dodge for +3 DCV (if you don't Abort). With a Flying Dodge you can make a Full Move and then Dodge for +4 DCV (if you don't Abort). If you DO Abort, you may not be able to move, but you still get +4 DCV as opposed to the normal +3 DCV of Dodge. That seems balanced to me, though I know it's not standard.

 

However, now I am considering doing something a tiny bit different. I WILL allow the movement as part of the Flying Dodge, but I'll require a Dex roll to succeed in moving out of an Area of Effect, just like for Dive For Cover. The differences between Flying Dodge and DFC for Area of Effect avoidance will be:

1. You can make the Full Move, but the amount by which you need to make the Dex roll* will be based only on the distance you need to move to get out of the area, not the total distance moved (e.g. if you want to move 12m but 4m will take you out of the area, you need to make the Dex roll by 2 not 6 and you still move the full 12m if you succeed).
   
2. If you don't succeed by enough to make it out of the area, you move as far as your margin of success indicates (e.g. if you needed to move 8m but you make the Dex roll by only 3, you move 6m) and then end up prone. If you DO manage to get out of the area, you are NOT prone.
   
3. Either way, you still get the +4 DCV (though remember it's halved along with the rest of your DCV if you end up prone).

*I don't like calling the DFC-type margin a penalty because that seems to imply to players that you can negate it with a Penalty Skill Level, which is not true. So I just say you need to make the Dex roll by a margin of 1 for each 2m you need to move. It helps avoid that argument.

[prestidigitator]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

Desolid would stay on until your next phase....

...unless you're Stunned.

[prestidigitator]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

Personally' date=' I think its too cheap for what it does. I'd allow it to be used as a DFC but I'd impose the -1/2m penalty and require a DEX roll.[/quote']

Wow. I swear I didn't plagiarize this. I must have had the thread displayed since before you posted it, and replied without refreshing first.

[dsatow]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

Wow. I swear I didn't plagiarize this. I must have had the thread displayed since before you posted it' date=' and replied without refreshing first. [/quote']

 

NP, I would think its a common corrective action. I just hope Steve or someone reads all the comments and in the future changes the rules on the bloody thing.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

It's really not that big of a deal in practice, though characters with a lot of movement can abuse it.

[Markdoc]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

I've been using a simple house rule for a long time to cover this. Dodging - however defined - is simply an attempt to get out of the way of an attack. So I simply run it as:

 

Dodge +3 DCV, 1/2 move, can be aborted to. Can include movement, but requires a DEX roll at -1 per 2 metres. Movement does not prevent HTH attacks from taking effect.

Flying dodge then simply becomes levels in DCV that require movement to activate.

 

Simple, straightforward and consistent. You can try to "dive for cover" away from a haymaker, but that simply counts as a dodge. You can also "Dodge behind that car" to try and get cover from someone shooting at you or to get out of an AoE. Thematically it's the same action, so I really don't see that we need different rules to handle it.

 

cheers, Mark

[prestidigitator]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

It's really not that big of a deal in practice' date=' though characters with a lot of movement can abuse it.[/quote']

I disagree. It removes all the negatives from DFC except for the fact that you are still Aborting, adds extreme benefits to replace those negatives (+4 DCV on top of getting out of an area before an attack can come off and being on my feet?), and it makes success automatic. Characters usually have enough movement to get out of AoEs that aren't made so darned big the Flash couldn't get out of them, but there's a pretty darn big difference between having to make a Dex roll penalized at -6 and being prone whether it succeeds or not vs. just moving the 12m, being on your feet, and gaining a +4 DCV for your trouble. All for 5 points?! I just don't think so.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

Well, you're welcome to disagree of course, but in my extensive experience using it in various campaigns and allowing its use pretty freely it simply wasn't game breaking. Its certainly a good value for the points and one of the best (if not the best) Martial Manuever, but the game world didn't implode due to it's use and the character's that had it didn't ascend into god like untouchability.

 

The situations where it was strong were situations where a character had also invested points in _other_ abilities, particularly extra movement as it synergizes, but also higher than average speed (which lessens the cost of Aborts in general).

 

Flying Dodge is a force multiplier and like many abilities in the HERO System on certain characters or in certain contexts it can be very advantaging, but less so in others. The GM should exercise judgment and eyeball its use on specific characters taking the bigger picture / total context into consideration, but it isn't inherently evil or borked unto itself. IMO, etc.

[dsatow]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

My problem with it, is its too efficient, rather than breaking the rules per say. When an ability is too efficient, every character in creation begins to have that ability. When End Battery was more broken in 3rd edition, you would see tons of End Battery Twids. Granted, I used that twiddly ability myself, but that doesn't make it right. Those that used it didn't break the game system, but it was a twiddly way to get around END costs at that time and gave the users a lot more effective points than those who didn't use it.

[Greywind]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

So what? There should be someone running the game that puts a halt to things when "everybody does it" and it doesn't fit.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

Using EDM for a "Wish", using a VPP of Multiforms to potentially access every power (Rogue/Parasite) and several other builds can be "too efficient" as well but only when judged against a specific campaign.

 

Last time I checked UMA/HSMA Flying Dodge is not listed as part of any "Real world" martial arts package. The only example of it is part of a "Speedster" package. Many speedsters are built with Speedster Trick Multipowers which can easily contain Desolidification which costs only 4 Real Points as a fixed slot.

 

Flying Dodge is no more of a game breaker than Desol or Invisibility imho.

[SteveZilla]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

Using EDM for a "Wish", using a VPP of Multiforms to potentially access every power (Rogue/Parasite) and several other builds can be "too efficient" as well but only when judged against a specific campaign.

 

Last time I checked UMA/HSMA Flying Dodge is not listed as part of any "Real world" martial arts package. The only example of it is part of a "Speedster" package. Many speedsters are built with Speedster Trick Multipowers which can easily contain Desolidification which costs only 4 Real Points as a fixed slot.

 

Flying Dodge is no more of a game breaker than Desol or Invisibility imho.

 

A minor oversiimplification re: the Desolid in a Multipower. Yes, it costs only 4 Real Points -- to purchase. But it "costs" 40 Pool Points to use, which limits the character from accessing some other power in the same framework.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

A minor oversiimplification re: the Desolid in a Multipower. Yes' date=' it costs only 4 Real Points -- to purchase. But it "costs" 40 Pool Points to [i']use[/i], which limits the character from accessing some other power in the same framework.

 

And using a Dodge keeps the character from using any attack during the same Phase.

[dmjalund]

Re: 5th Ed: Flying Dodge

 

And using a Dodge keeps the character from using any attack during the same Phase.

But if your desolid, you probably can't use any attack anyway