Trouble with Armor Piercing

[Colossus75]

I have been using champs for several years, and have come across something that I hope others can give some insight on.

 

Armor Piercing is a +1/2 advantage.

 

Let's say you have an 10d6 EB with the Advantage. it would cost 50+25=75pts. Statistically, the average on a 6 sided die is 3.5, so 10d6 would have an average of 35pts of stun and 10 body.

 

Now lets say you decided not to buy Armor Piercing, and instead pumped up your attack to 15d6. Same Cost. Statistically, you will do 3.5X15d6=53pts of stun and 15 body.

 

Now lets say you attack someone with 30 ED. WIth the first attack you would half his ED to a 15 and then roll 10d6. Let's say you roll average. you get 35 stun and 10 body. thus you do 35-15=20 stun and 0 body.

 

if you were to hit the same person with the 15d6 attack, you would do 53-30=23 stun and 0 body.

 

Statistically, you do better damage with the normal attack. what's the point of armor piercing? I've done some calculations and it doesn't get much better.

 

Even if you lower the person's ED it doesn't get any better. Let's say same senario, but the guy only has 10 ED. The 10d6AP attack would do 35-5= 30 Stun and 10-5=5 body. The 15d6 attack would do 53-10=43 stun and 15-10= 5 body. Again where's the advantage.

 

Personally, I'd rather have more dice to roll and hope for an above average hit.

 

Can anyone enlighten me?

 

Thanks.

[Steve Long]

This isn't an appropriate post for the Questions board, since it's a design/philosophy kinda thing. So, I've moved it to the Discussion board. Have at it, Herodom Assembled.

[Nightshade]

Don't look at it on an average. Look at it as possibilities.

 

With the 30 ED, the armor piercing attack has a possibility of getting some body through. The 15d6 EB does not.

 

AP is generally better for attacks against Tanks (characters with high defenses) than against low defense characters, exactly for these reasons.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Nightshade

[Zed-F]

I agree. Consider the case of a smaller attack. A 9d6 EB against 30 ED will average 1 or 2 stun, whereas an 6d6 AP EB will average 6.

[Talon]

The problem is that AP applies a flat cost to what is an extremely variable equation. Depending on the level of attacks and defenses in your game, AP could be a great bargain or a total ripoff.

 

One alternative is to buy extra damage dice with the Limitation "only to penetrate defenses". That way you can have exactly the degree of armor piercing you want.

[sbarron]

Or take your examples in the other direction...

 

40 ED vs 10d6 EB, AP = 15 Stun and 0 Bod

40 ED vs 15d6 EB = 13 Stun and 0 Bod

 

50 ED vs 10d6 EB, AP = 10 Stun and 0 Bod

50 ED vs 15d6 EB = 3 Stun and 0 Bod

 

60 ED vs 10d6 EB, AP = 5 Stun and 0 Bod

60 ED vs 15d6 EB = 0 Stun and 0 Bod

 

As you can see, AP is better vs high defenses than the normal EB. It's just the nature of the advantage. That's what makes a good MP so effective. You can choose the attack that is best for the situation.

[Gary]

The equation also changes when you stack other advantages on the EB. A 6D6 AP Area effect EB is far better than a 7.5D6 Area Effect EB for the same cost.

[Jeff]

Originally posted by Gary

The equation also changes when you stack other advantages on the EB. A 6D6 AP Area effect EB is far better than a 7.5D6 Area Effect EB for the same cost.

Yeah, what he said. At +1/2, it's a relatively cheap advantage. Most advantages don't increase damage or the ability of the attack to get through defenses. If you're putting on a lot of those advantages - area effect, increased AE, reduced END, increased range/no range mod/line of sight, continuous, and so on - a little bit of armor-piercing is almost like more base damage when it the time comes actually to damage the target. More base damage with a lot of advantages is expensive; more advantages with a modest base cost and a lot of other advantages are dirt cheap. Increased STUN multipliers and to some extent Penetrating are like AP in this way. It still makes a good combo with autofire too.

[Colossus75]

Thanks Guys,

 

That's really helped. It makes a lot more sense.

[JohnTaber]

Hi Gents: Read Steve's Heroglyphs section in the DH#13 (the latest issue). There is an article about this...it brings up some point mentioned in an older AC article. Anyway...directly about this topic.

[prestidigitator]

I think I can state this so it makes real good sense. Let's go back to the pure Armor Piercing question, and talk about an Energy Blast vs. someone's Energy Defense.

 

Suppose the average damage of your EB exactly equals their ED. Then an extra normal d6 of damage is (on average) going to have full effect. An extra AP d6 of damage is going to have exactly the same effect, but cost half again as much. Not quite worth it, eh?

 

Now, suppose the average damage of your EB equals half their ED. Now an extra normal d6 of damage is going to do nothing, whereas an extra d6 of AP damage is going to have full effect. Sounds more appealing, don't you think?