Movement Multipowers

[Wolf]

Re: Movement Multipowers

 

p 408 discusses losing the entire Reserve of a Multipower' date=' and when it might occur.[/quote']

 

So it really depends on how the sfx of both the Multipower and the drain work... But I can see that it's possible to drain the Multipower.

[tesuji]

Re: Movement Multipowers

 

That much is clear.

 

If you follow the link included in my previous post you would see the full character and multipower those slots were lifted from.

 

The point is that using any of the movement slots takes away an opportunity to use an equally useful non-movement slot (and visa-versa).

 

this presumes that there are non-movement powers in the multipower which did not seem to be what the op was asking about.

 

and it presumes there is an actual cut back there. If i have a mp with a 90 pt pool, six attack powers each at 60 and four movement powers each at 30, then i am NOT losing any utility at all for the movement issue. I can run one attack power and 1-2 movement powers per phase. mathematically adding 30 to the original 60 pt pool and adding the 3 pt slots is THE SAME COST as creating a separate movement multipower with 30 pool and 3 pt slots.

 

So i would not allow this anymore than i would allow the movement power because effectively the movement slot isn't preventing me from using other slots.

[Wolf]

Re: Movement Multipowers

 

I agree. This isn't anymore abusive than some attack builds I've seen. And I can't figure out where the "double dipping" comes from ?

 

Double dipping: We are suggested to give point breaks only to things that give a limitation (If it doesn't limit you, you should get no points for it). If you view the main limitation of a Multipower as "this limits you to utilizing one power at a time," then you get no balance against the point break. You can't use movement powers together outside of a Multipower, you can't use them together again in a Multipower, your "double dipping" on the disadvantage.

 

Now, honestly I didn't look at the distinction vs. drains (and though this is my issue, we really have never used drains in any of my games, and that's mostly from not using Hero for supers much at all, and that's my issue, not the rules of the game.) So there are other negatives that continue to affect the power, thus it's not getting something for nothing.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Movement Multipowers

 

Character A has 10" of Running and 20" of Leaping. He can half move up to 5" via running and up to 10" via Leaping. Or he can take a full move with a single type of movement, moving 10" with his running or 20" with his leaping. He can even take two half moves and move a total of 15", half via running and half via leaping.

 

Character B has the exact same Movement powers in his 20 points MP (we'll assume he sold back his base amounts, just to keep things simple). He can either half move 5" with running or half move 10" with leaping. Or he can take a full move with a single type of movement, moving 10" with his running or 20" with his leaping.

 

What Character B cannot do is switch slots mid phase to perform a double half move of both leaping and running. The exception would be explicit GM permission territory or some kind of Abort action (switching to the higher movement form for a Dive For Cover being a possible example)

 

Mind you, this sort of thing doesn't necessarily come up all that often, but that's the limitation of a movement MP.

[tesuji]

Re: Movement Multipowers

 

Did this change in 6e?

 

I thought the Unified Power Limitation had to be applied before ALL slots of a Multipower were equally affected by Adjustment powers.

 

6e1 pg 140

If a character uses Adjustment Powers such as

Drain to reduce or decrease a Power Framework,

he must reduce the individual slots rather than

the base pool of points. Reducing the base pool of

points doesn’t affect the individual slots unless the

slots are also reduced.

 

This may be different than 5e. But for 6e the "multiple drain" aspect is not a characteristic of multipowers at all. It can be added to any power using the unified power limitation.

 

So for those who feel this is the key downside of the multipower, they should likely consider this carefully before going to 6e.

 

Me? The whole drain thing is rather uncommon in my experience, not rare by any means but certainly not worth a price cut of over 50%.

 

I mean heckfire, if someone asked me to evaluate a lim such as "any drain or suppress on this power and it shuts off for an entire day" I would not come close to giving that lim a value of -1 even much less the savings given to multipowers. Likely more like -1/4 or maybe -1/2 if i was in a really bad mood.

[Wolf]

Re: Movement Multipowers

 

*snip*

Mind you, this sort of thing doesn't necessarily come up all that often, but that's the limitation of a movement MP.

 

Very Fair. Well done. I humbly withdraw my previous sentiment.

[Wolf]

Re: Movement Multipowers

 

6e1 pg 140

If a character uses Adjustment Powers such as

Drain to reduce or decrease a Power Framework,

he must reduce the individual slots rather than

the base pool of points. Reducing the base pool of

points doesn’t affect the individual slots unless the

slots are also reduced.

 

This may be different than 5e. But for 6e the "multiple drain" aspect is not a characteristic of multipowers at all. It can be added to any power using the unified power limitation.

 

So for those who feel this is the key downside of the multipower, they should likely consider this carefully before going to 6e.

 

Me? The whole drain thing is rather uncommon in my experience, not rare by any means but certainly not worth a price cut of over 50%.

 

I mean heckfire, if someone asked me to evaluate a lim such as "any drain or suppress on this power and it shuts off for an entire day" I would not come close to giving that lim a value of -1 even much less the savings given to multipowers. Likely more like -1/4 or maybe -1/2 if i was in a really bad mood.

 

That's also pretty cut and dry. The section is quite explicit. You can't shut down Multipowers by draining the pool, unless Unified has been put on them, which for some that I've built it should be put on them... but that's a build point I'll have to remember.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Movement Multipowers

 

this presumes that there are non-movement powers in the multipower which did not seem to be what the op was asking about.

 

and it presumes there is an actual cut back there. If i have a mp with a 90 pt pool, six attack powers each at 60 and four movement powers each at 30, then i am NOT losing any utility at all for the movement issue. I can run one attack power and 1-2 movement powers per phase. mathematically adding 30 to the original 60 pt pool and adding the 3 pt slots is THE SAME COST as creating a separate movement multipower with 30 pool and 3 pt slots.

 

So i would not allow this anymore than i would allow the movement power because effectively the movement slot isn't preventing me from using other slots.

 

An imbalanced multipower (30 point slots & 60 point slots) is effectively 2 separate multipowers.

 

And you can build multiple modes of movement without use of any framework:

45 Flight 15", Variable Advantage (+1/4 Advantages; Usable [As Second Mode Of Movement]; +1/2) (45 Active Points) - END=4

 

Why should that be legal and not the following (for the same real points by the way)?

30 Multipower, 30-point reserve

3u 1) Flight 15" (30 Active Points) - END=3

3u 2) Running +15" (21" total) (30 Active Points) - END=3

3u 3) Teleportation 15" (30 Active Points) - END=3

3u 4) Gliding 30" (30 Active Points) - END=0

3u 5) All of the Above: Flight 10", Variable Advantage (+1/4 Advantages; Usable [As Second Mode Of Movement]; +1/2) (30 Active Points) - END=3

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Movement Multipowers

 

Character A has 10" of Running and 20" of Leaping. He can half move up to 5" via running and up to 10" via Leaping. Or he can take a full move with a single type of movement, moving 10" with his running or 20" with his leaping. He can even take two half moves and move a total of 15", half via running and half via leaping.

 

Character B has the exact same Movement powers in his 20 points MP (we'll assume he sold back his base amounts, just to keep things simple). He can either half move 5" with running or half move 10" with leaping. Or he can take a full move with a single type of movement, moving 10" with his running or 20" with his leaping.

 

What Character B cannot do is switch slots mid phase to perform a double half move of both leaping and running. The exception would be explicit GM permission territory or some kind of Abort action (switching to the higher movement form for a Dive For Cover being a possible example)

 

Mind you, this sort of thing doesn't necessarily come up all that often, but that's the limitation of a movement MP.

 

You are correct if we are talking about a fixed/ultra slot multipower. If the slots are variable/multi then 2 distinct 'quarter' moves are certainly possible.

[Wolf]

Re: Movement Multipowers

 

An imbalanced multipower (30 point slots & 60 point slots) is effectively 2 separate multipowers.

 

And you can build multiple modes of movement without use of any framework:

45 Flight 15", Variable Advantage (+1/4 Advantages; Usable [As Second Mode Of Movement]; +1/2) (45 Active Points) - END=4

 

Why should that be legal and not the following (for the same real points by the way)?

30 Multipower, 30-point reserve

3u 1) Flight 15" (30 Active Points) - END=3

3u 2) Running +15" (21" total) (30 Active Points) - END=3

3u 3) Teleportation 15" (30 Active Points) - END=3

3u 4) Gliding 30" (30 Active Points) - END=0

3u 5) All of the Above: Flight 10", Variable Advantage (+1/4 Advantages; Usable [As Second Mode Of Movement]; +1/2) (30 Active Points) - END=3

 

The GM can also allow a character to buy this Advantage multiple times for the same Movement Power' date=' allowing it to function as three, four, or more modes of movement.[/quote']

 

Not trying to harp, but you can't just buy a level of Generic Usable As SMM and change it when you want to, you have to buy different separate modes for each that you want to emulate.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Movement Multipowers

 

Not trying to harp' date=' but you can't just buy a level of Generic Usable As SMM and change it when you want to, you have to buy different separate modes for each that you want to emulate.[/quote']

 

You're overlooking that I built that with Variable Advantage. Within the Variable Advantage I can apply ANY +1/4 Advantage to the base power including all the various modes of movement.

[Wolf]

Re: Movement Multipowers

 

You're overlooking that I built that with Variable Advantage. Within the Variable Advantage I can apply ANY +1/4 Advantage to the base power including all the various modes of movement.

 

Oops Sorry.

[Ice9]

Re: Movement Multipowers

 

Actually, in 6E, isn't this even more similar to an attack Multipower? Since the multiple attack rules don't distinguish between multiple uses of the same attack and multiple different attacks, it's pretty much the same situation as movement types. There is Combined Attack, but that's not something that always applies.

 

And I've never felt that "not being able to use it at the same time" was the sole reason for Multipowers. Many small powers are just generally not as powerful as one huge power. For instance, having a bunch of minor psychic investigation powers like object reading, minor precognition, empathic perception, and so forth isn't as strong as having one huge Telepathy power that can read the mind of everyone in the city. This is true even if you'd never use the powers at the same time or otherwise be hindered by Multipower.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Movement Multipowers

 

Note that there's not just the "Combined Attack" (which was Multiple Power Attack in 5E), but the general "Multiple Attack" (which includes Sweep or Rapid Fire from 5E) that makes this more flexible with attack powers that are purchased separately.

 

There is something that similarly limits Movement Powers in Multipowers. Normally if you have two Movement Powers you can do a Half Move with one, then another Half Move with the other. You can do that with a Movement Multipower as well since you can use a Zero Phase action between the Half Moves to change Multipower slots, but you can generally only change slots once per Phase so for that first Half Move you're stuck with whatever slot the Multipower was switched to from your last Phase.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Movement Multipowers

 

Sure, I do it whenever its useful; the "super athlete" concept in particular...like say The MOD or Showdown. Or even a Power Armor character such as Makeshift, or a Speedster such as Hype. Etc.

 

It's not an issue.

[JmOz]

Re: Movement Multipowers

 

I feel part of the purpose of a MP is to give you a benefit for redundancy

 

Your first attack, or movement power is infinitly more valuable than your 5th

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Movement Multipowers

 

I feel part of the purpose of a MP is to give you a benefit for redundancy

 

Your first attack, or movement power is infinitly more valuable than your 5th

 

QFE; very true!

[Wolf]

Re: Movement Multipowers

 

I feel part of the purpose of a MP is to give you a benefit for redundancy

 

Your first attack, or movement power is infinitly more valuable than your 5th

 

I'm not quite sure what this means... could you be more specific? It's like the guy who showed me the Hero system... I asked him what you'd use "based on Con" for... he just laughed, and said "you'd know when you'd need it." That really didn't help. heck I'm still trying to figure it out, and he was probably only trying to mess with me.

 

This one though I want to understand.

 

I can see some of it, I just want to know if I've got the gist.

[JmOz]

Re: Movement Multipowers

 

GENERIC ENERGY BLASTER MAN

 

Buys a 15d6 EB, and this is cool

 

Now he buys a 12d6 AP EB (in 6th this costs the same BTW)

 

and a 10d6 Penetrating

 

and a 5d6 RKA

 

but he can only use any one of these powers at one time

 

all are roughly the same in versitility, but sometimes one is better than another, but because he started with that 15d6 EB he does not get the same benefit that he got when he bought the 15d6 EB (he already has a ranged attack that does body damage with 15 DC's).

 

I think we would see a lot more single Ranged attack characters (just a 15d6 EB) if it was not for the MP construct.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Movement Multipowers

 

I'm not quite sure what this means... could you be more specific? It's like the guy who showed me the Hero system... I asked him what you'd use "based on Con" for... he just laughed, and said "you'd know when you'd need it." That really didn't help. heck I'm still trying to figure it out, and he was probably only trying to mess with me.

 

This one though I want to understand.

 

I can see some of it, I just want to know if I've got the gist.

 

I think JmOz was referring to the often mentioned "attack multipower".

The reasoning behind the 'cost break' as some have called it is that by and large most folks assume that a character can only use 1 attack per Phase*. As a result the "variable advantage-like" aspect of multipowers is similar in some ways to applying the Lockout Limitation to each of the powers individually bought outside of a framework.

 

re: Based on CON.

I assume you are referring to the Advantage. If so, it is a really good way to use Mental Power mechanics without necessarily using 'mental power' special effects (ie; truth serum).

[Wolf]

Re: Movement Multipowers

 

Okay, yah. I've seen this when making builds, (outside of the guy who introduced me to Champions back in '95) I've only ever run games in Hero, and I'm just not that "supers" oriented, so some things are new, I've recently made my wife a few energy projectors, and I've felt that about them.

 

Bla bla MP, 50 points.

"main attack"- 10 DC's strait

peircing attack- 10 DC's with the modifiers

AOE attack- 10 DC's with modifiers...

 

that's how it starts to look to me... Basically I can average out the damage to be near the same (Give or take a bit) for each attack, because they all are at the same point cap, due to the MP... Nice, thanks guys . Gotta say I'm happy for the AOE cost changing, that was one of the only ones that was more for injuring before the brawl starts, or getting minions down a few health, now it feels like a full attack power on her sheet.

 

And about the Con... yah, that would be one.. Thanks for that. I think I was reading into way too much.

[Jagged]

Re: Movement Multipowers

 

I guess here is part of our disagreement. I see the main part of a mulitpower (How I use them in most circumstances) is to make things a "one use at a time" deal.

 

I always saw the main part of a multipower (and any framework really) as a bonus for good concept. Which is probably why I never saw this as an issue and is something I've done with lots of charcaters

[ghost-angel]

Re: Movement Multipowers

 

I always saw the main part of a multipower (and any framework really) as a bonus for good concept. Which is probably why I never saw this as an issue and is something I've done with lots of charcaters

 

This. QFT.

[JohnOSpencer]

Re: Movement Multipowers

 

Thanks everyone!

 

I like to bounce ideas off you all as I have a bad habit of missing something glaringly unbalanced until we start playing.