Movement Multipowers

[JohnOSpencer]

I'm looking for some opinions on movement multipowers.

 

I (generally) have no problem with the multipower full of different versions of one movement power, such as flight or teleport. What I'm concerned about is Multipowers full of different movement powers.

 

A player handed me a character with a multipower with Running, leaping and swimming in it. All based off the fact his character is generally athletic. Now, it's not that large 12-15 pt pool and not all the slots are at max values and I like the theme of it, but i'm not sure if there is something i'm missing or if anyone else thinks this is 'broken' or anything.

 

Thanks.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Movement Multipowers

 

In my opinion, they are no more 'broken' than Attack Multipowers.

 

More often than not a Character uses one Movement Type per Phase, just like they use One Attack per phase. I don't see the big deal and quite frankly, I think the concern over non-attack multipowers is utter hogwash.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Movement Multipowers

 

...and get off my lawn!

[Wolf]

Re: Movement Multipowers

 

I think that the point here is that by definition you already get movement powers that can't be used while the other one is being used, it's double dipping IMHO... I have never seen anyone try to Swim while running, now I've seen Flight used as Running, but I think that so far we understand that.

 

I know that we are only supposed to give point breaks (usually termed as limitations, or complications, or Disads.) for things that have "real" restrictions (IE If it doesn't limit you, you don't get those points). And that multipower doesn't limit you.

 

I fall in the "I think the concern over non-attack multipowers is utter hogwash" camp myself. But really as I think about it that is pretty definitely double dipping, depending on SFX.

 

Though I could see something like this:

 

The Mystical Manticals of Runner Rahsha: Multipower, 18-point reserve, (18 Active Points); all slots IAF (-1/2)

1) Leaping +10m (14m forward, 7m upward) (Accurate) (10 Active Points); IAF (-1/2)

2) Running +13m (25m total), x4 Noncombat (18 Active Points); IAF (-1/2)

3)Swimming +8m (12m total) (4 Active Points); IAF (-1/2)

 

So I could see it allowed, depending. Basically, it's up to you man.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Movement Multipowers

 

I think that the point here is that by definition you already get movement powers that can't be used while the other one is being used' date=' it's double dipping IMHO...[/quote']

 

Many many people will be quick to point out - you can't use Attack Powers at the same time either. Especially those who never adopted Multiple Power Attack rules from 5E and insisted it was never meant to be done that way from the start.

 

If that isn't double dipping, then neither is a Movement MP.

[Wolf]

Re: Movement Multipowers

 

Many many people will be quick to point out - you can't use Attack Powers at the same time either. Especially those who never adopted Multiple Power Attack rules from 5E and insisted it was never meant to be done that way from the start.

 

If that isn't double dipping, then neither is a Movement MP.

 

Cool, but your adopting a house rule to make the point; so, subjectively by 5th or 6th edition (Granted, your point stands in 4th ed) rules as written, attacks aren't double dipping.

 

I also see your point in 5th, more so, due to different types of attacks, such as a rifle butt, and a Blast, which is an official build with certain Viper agents... Yah, I get that. But saying you can't use attack powers together is a misnomer; with some limitations, you can, and even more so in 6th. Half empty/ half full, its semantics. End point; can two or more attack powers be used in one phase? Yes.

 

What you allow in your game is up to you, what I allow in mine is up to me, what the OP allows in his game is up to him; the rules aren't the final arbiter, the GM is. I think my point still stands in a RAW conversation, but That's one of the best parts of the games we play, we can agree to disagree.

 

Then again I said too that I'd allow it in certain builds... I've also got a ton of Min-Maxers, so I have to watch the characters that I allow for quite a bit of infractions, so with this group I tend to be more conservative about the situation, back in my last group... "sure, whatever. as long as you think it's a good build we'll do this thing."

[prestidigitator]

Re: Movement Multipowers

 

Somewhat related: Multipower-Like Movement Powers

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Movement Multipowers

 

What movement powers are available to a character with a Multipower or even a VPP should really be more to do with 'schtick preservation' than anything else.

 

Anyway, a framework isn't really allowing that much more variety to a character regarding movement that isn't already available via Variable Advantage.

 

example:

 

60 Multipower, 60-point reserve

6u 1) Flight 20", Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (60 Active Points) - END=0

6u 2) Flight 30" (60 Active Points) - END=6

6u 3) Running 23", Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) (60 Active Points) - END=2

 

70 Running +20" (6"/26" total), Variable Advantage (applies to base Running) (+1/2 Advantages; Limited Group of Advantages; Usable as another form of movement, Reduced END, Megascale; +3/4) (70 Active Points) - END=7

 

Plus, both mechanics can be combined as well (A Multipower movement slot with Variable Advantage).

[Beast]

Re: Movement Multipowers

 

there is the advantage to use as a 2nd movement power so you can blend 2 types of movement usable in the same phase

ex: running and swimming if using that advantage you would not need to end your movement at the interface of the 2

you just convert the remaining movement into the other movement type

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Movement Multipowers

 

there is the advantage to use as a 2nd movement power so you can blend 2 types of movement usable in the same phase

ex: running and swimming if using that advantage you would not need to end your movement at the interface of the 2

you just convert the remaining movement into the other movement type

 

Usable as another form of movement is not necessary for that at all.

 

From the FAQ:

 

Can a character use two forms of movement in one Phase? If not, why can characters make running leaps?

 

If a character wanted to use two forms of movement in a Phase, he’d have to make a Half Move (defined, as always, as using up to half one’s inches of movement in a Phase) with both, effectively ending his Phase. A “running leap” is just a Leap — making a Leap may involve some running, as discussed by the rules on 5ER 35.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Movement Multipowers

 

Cool, but your adopting a house rule to make the point; so, subjectively by 5th or 6th edition (Granted, your point stands in 4th ed) rules as written, attacks aren't double dipping.

 

I also see your point in 5th, more so, due to different types of attacks, such as a rifle butt, and a Blast, which is an official build with certain Viper agents... Yah, I get that. But saying you can't use attack powers together is a misnomer; with some limitations, you can, and even more so in 6th. Half empty/ half full, its semantics. End point; can two or more attack powers be used in one phase? Yes.

 

What you allow in your game is up to you, what I allow in mine is up to me, what the OP allows in his game is up to him; the rules aren't the final arbiter, the GM is. I think my point still stands in a RAW conversation, but That's one of the best parts of the games we play, we can agree to disagree.

 

Then again I said too that I'd allow it in certain builds... I've also got a ton of Min-Maxers, so I have to watch the characters that I allow for quite a bit of infractions, so with this group I tend to be more conservative about the situation, back in my last group... "sure, whatever. as long as you think it's a good build we'll do this thing."

 

Soo.... a new rule that only appeared seven years ago suddenly invalidates a build that's been around for a couple decades then?

 

Yep. Not buying it. It's a non-argument. Hogwash. I wouldn't even police it that hard.

 

Besides, Movement Multipowers make building Starships really easy and conceptually useful.

[tesuji]

Re: Movement Multipowers

 

In my opinion, they are no more 'broken' than Attack Multipowers.

 

More often than not a Character uses one Movement Type per Phase, just like they use One Attack per phase. I don't see the big deal and quite frankly, I think the concern over non-attack multipowers is utter hogwash.

 

there is a huge difference.

 

the attacks are simple enough = if bought outside a mp paying full cost for each they can by the rules all be used at once as part of combined attack - with likely some exceptions.

 

put in a mp, you are limited to only 1 or 2 and 2 is unusual.

 

big difference = big savings. cool so far.

 

movement is not the same way.

 

if i buy leaping and flight and teleport and running and swimming all separate i still am pretty much limited to one maybe two at a time period.

i cannot buy 12" each of these and use them all for 60" travel in a phase.

 

slap them in a mp, a well constructed one, and i lose really no utility at all.

 

so now i am losing little to no usefulness and savin big and to me thats a problem.

 

so yes its just like attacks in that you drop to 1-2 at a time but you are starting from "use them all" with attacks and "use one or two" with movement.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Movement Multipowers

 

...

 

if i buy leaping and flight and teleport and running and swimming all separate i still am pretty much limited to one maybe two at a time period.

i cannot buy 12" each of these and use them all for 60" travel in a phase.

 

slap them in a mp, a well constructed one, and i lose really no utility at all.

 

...

 

You lose the utility of accessing other powers in the multipower when using a movement slot though.

 

Let's take Superman for an example.

 

How many types of movement does his Kryptonian powers give him?

Just flight right?

 

Well, let's see, I can come up with at least 6 or 7:

 

1) Faster...: Teleportation 8", No Relative Velocity, x2 Increased Mass, x4 Noncombat, Invisible to Sight Group, SFX Only (+1/4) (45 Active Points); Must Pass Through Intervening Space (-1/4), Limited Power Affected by Adjustments as an EC (-1/4), Limited Power Not in the presence of Kryptonite or red solar radiation (-1/4) 4

2) ...than a...: Teleportation 5", Invisible to Sight Group, SFX Only (+1/4), Area Of Effect Accurate (One Hex; Only to determine OCV of Selective; +1/2), Usable As Attack (+1), Area Of Effect (8" Any Area; +1 1/2), Selective (+1/4) (45 Active Points); Limited Power Only To Disarm/Grab Objects (-1), Must Pass Through Intervening Space (-1/4) 4

3) ...speeding...: Running +20" (6"/26" total), x4 Noncombat (45 Active Points); Limited Power Affected by Adjustments as an EC (-1/4), Limited Power Not in the presence of Kryptonite or red solar radiation (-1/4) 4

 

6) Able to leap tall buildings in a single bound: Leaping +21" (3"/30" forward, 1 1/2"/15" upward), combat acceleration/deceleration (+1/4), Variable Advantage (+1/2 Advantages; Limited Group of Advantages; Megascale, No Gravity Penalty, Reduced END; +3/4) (45 Active Points); Limited Power Affected by Adjustments as an EC (-1/4), Limited Power Not in the presence of Kryptonite or red solar radiation (-1/4)

Notes: Advantages apply to base STR. 4

7) Look! Up in the sky!: Flight 10", Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4), Variable Advantage (+1/2 Advantages; Combat Acceleration/Deceleration, Invisible Power Effects, Megascale, No Gravity Penalty, No Turn Mode, Reduced Endurance, Usable As Running or Swimming; +1) (45 Active Points); Limited Power Affected by Adjustments as an EC (-1/4), Limited Power Not in the presence of Kryptonite or red solar radiation (-1/4) 2

8) It's a bird. It's a plane. It's...: Flight 20", Position Shift (45 Active Points); Limited Power Affected by Adjustments as an EC (-1/4), Limited Power Not in the presence of Kryptonite or red solar radiation (-1/4) 4

 

10) Super Drilling: Tunneling 3" through 13 DEF material (45 Active Points); Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (1/2 DCV; -1/2), Limited Power Affected by Adjustments as an EC (-1/4), Limited Power Not in the presence of Kryptonite or red solar radiation (-1/4) 4

[Alibear]

Re: Movement Multipowers

 

Eh?

 

edit: Aimed at post 12.

[Fearghus]

Re: Movement Multipowers

 

I have not read all the responses yet, but I have read enough that I think the consensus is that most people don't have a problem with it.

 

IMHO Movement powers in a multi power aren't really any more of a problem than any other power in a multi-power. Granted if you have Flight, Running and Swimming all in the same multi-power it's not like you are going to use those together so you are sort of gaming the system, but that is kind of what a multi-power does anyway.

 

On the flip side of that if you put a movement power in a multi-power that has attack powers in... you can't use your attack because you moved? I call that a serious disadvantage, and probably worth more than the points you save from Multi-power.

 

In the end every build needs to be scrutinized for abuse. I allow non-combat multi powers simply because it makes sense in some cases. Others it's Min-Maxing, and I don't allow it. You have to look at each situation individually.

[tesuji]

Re: Movement Multipowers

 

I am not sure i understand your point.

 

if all of those powers were bought outside the multipower paying full cost, he would only be able to access two of them per phase and if he accessed two of them only for half-moves.

 

if they are bought in a multipower for grossly reduced cost, the same holds true.

 

Big savings for little or no loss in utility.

 

thats a bad result.

 

f instead we look at a multipower with say six attack powers vs the same six attack powers bought outside the mp, we see that you can use all six at once, barring any special restrictions, but if we put them in a multipower we get only one at a time and big cost savings.

 

loss of utility (one at a time vs six at a time) and we see a large savings in cost.

 

thats a good result.

 

 

 

You lose the utility of accessing other powers in the multipower when using a movement slot though.

 

Let's take Superman for an example.

 

How many types of movement does his Kryptonian powers give him?

Just flight right?

 

Well, let's see, I can come up with at least 6 or 7:

 

1) Faster...: Teleportation 8", No Relative Velocity, x2 Increased Mass, x4 Noncombat, Invisible to Sight Group, SFX Only (+1/4) (45 Active Points); Must Pass Through Intervening Space (-1/4), Limited Power Affected by Adjustments as an EC (-1/4), Limited Power Not in the presence of Kryptonite or red solar radiation (-1/4) 4

2) ...than a...: Teleportation 5", Invisible to Sight Group, SFX Only (+1/4), Area Of Effect Accurate (One Hex; Only to determine OCV of Selective; +1/2), Usable As Attack (+1), Area Of Effect (8" Any Area; +1 1/2), Selective (+1/4) (45 Active Points); Limited Power Only To Disarm/Grab Objects (-1), Must Pass Through Intervening Space (-1/4) 4

3) ...speeding...: Running +20" (6"/26" total), x4 Noncombat (45 Active Points); Limited Power Affected by Adjustments as an EC (-1/4), Limited Power Not in the presence of Kryptonite or red solar radiation (-1/4) 4

 

6) Able to leap tall buildings in a single bound: Leaping +21" (3"/30" forward, 1 1/2"/15" upward), combat acceleration/deceleration (+1/4), Variable Advantage (+1/2 Advantages; Limited Group of Advantages; Megascale, No Gravity Penalty, Reduced END; +3/4) (45 Active Points); Limited Power Affected by Adjustments as an EC (-1/4), Limited Power Not in the presence of Kryptonite or red solar radiation (-1/4)

Notes: Advantages apply to base STR. 4

7) Look! Up in the sky!: Flight 10", Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4), Variable Advantage (+1/2 Advantages; Combat Acceleration/Deceleration, Invisible Power Effects, Megascale, No Gravity Penalty, No Turn Mode, Reduced Endurance, Usable As Running or Swimming; +1) (45 Active Points); Limited Power Affected by Adjustments as an EC (-1/4), Limited Power Not in the presence of Kryptonite or red solar radiation (-1/4) 2

8) It's a bird. It's a plane. It's...: Flight 20", Position Shift (45 Active Points); Limited Power Affected by Adjustments as an EC (-1/4), Limited Power Not in the presence of Kryptonite or red solar radiation (-1/4) 4

 

10) Super Drilling: Tunneling 3" through 13 DEF material (45 Active Points); Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (1/2 DCV; -1/2), Limited Power Affected by Adjustments as an EC (-1/4), Limited Power Not in the presence of Kryptonite or red solar radiation (-1/4) 4

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Movement Multipowers

 

I am not sure i understand your point.

 

...

 

That much is clear.

 

If you follow the link included in my previous post you would see the full character and multipower those slots were lifted from.

 

The point is that using any of the movement slots takes away an opportunity to use an equally useful non-movement slot (and visa-versa).

[Wolf]

Re: Movement Multipowers

 

Soo.... a new rule that only appeared seven years ago suddenly invalidates a build that's been around for a couple decades then?

 

Yep. Not buying it. It's a non-argument. Hogwash. I wouldn't even police it that hard.

 

Uh... yah, that's why it's called a "new" edition, and not "revised" or "reprint." A change of edition inherently sets the rules back to "0" when concerning builds, interactions, and interpretations of the rules (outside of GM intervention and grandfathering). It's not like the rule appeared in adventures club or in supplementary material, it's in the bloody "rule-book" (it's called that for a reason, sometimes called a "main rule book"... usually that means something).

 

6th edition did this for dudes who... say, want to use a build that buys dex up to increase SPD. (weak build example, but it's a valid statement), and that's a build that's been around for decades. Yet I've seen that you understand that one changed in other threads. Your statement above is emotional, and illogical.

 

Grandfathering and adding house rules have been part of gaming since the early days, so that's cool. But that's what it is. Especially when the point to your assertion is "its done a better way in the old edition."

 

Besides' date=' Movement Multipowers make building Starships really easy and conceptually useful.[/quote']

 

Again, personally- I'm not saying that I'd rule against a movement multipower every time, I'm just saying that there are some circumstances where a person can "more easily" use it to twink the rules, or try to get one over, and if the build appears to me to be just using a mulitpower to get one over on the points, then I'm going to say no. If it's well build, logical, and understandable, then fine.

 

Heck I've recently build several speedsters who have movement mulitpowers. Some even have Run, Flight (usable as Running) and Teleportation in them... But I try to keep them within the same SFX (Fast Running).

 

Now a player comes up to me and says I want my brick (for example) to have Run, Jump, and Swim in a multipower together; I'm going to ask some questions. And if I'm not satisfied, I'm going to ask for a re-write. That's all I'm saying Ghost Angel.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Movement Multipowers

 

Grandfathering and adding house rules have been part of gaming since the early days' date=' so that's cool. But that's what it is. Especially when the point to your assertion is "its done a better way in the old edition."[/quote']

 

That's not my point at all. My point is - why is it suddenly a problem now? Because now we've got a rule that adds a limitation that didn't exist before?

 

I'm not buying it. Movement Multipowers are no more troublesome than any other Multipower. Combat, Non-Combat, or Mixed.

 

They should ALWAYS be conceptual in nature. It should ALWAYS make thematic and SFX sense to put ANYTHING into a Multipower. Especially a hodge-podge of Attack Powers.

 

How ELSE do you look at draining the pool reduces all the Powers abilities - which I consider to be the primary 'downside' to the Multipower Construct. Not this side issue of multiple attacks.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Movement Multipowers

 

....

 

Heck I've recently build several speedsters who have movement mulitpowers. Some even have Run, Flight (usable as Running) and Teleportation in them... But I try to keep them within the same SFX (Fast Running).

 

Now a player comes up to me and says I want my brick (for example) to have Run, Jump, and Swim in a multipower together; I'm going to ask some questions. And if I'm not satisfied, I'm going to ask for a re-write. That's all I'm saying Ghost Angel.

 

This seems like an emotional response as well.

Why does the speedster get the pass and the brick doesn't?

(Strong leg muscles)

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Movement Multipowers

 

...

 

How ELSE do you look at draining the pool reduces all the Powers abilities - which I consider to be the primary 'downside' to the Multipower Construct. Not this side issue of multiple attacks.

 

Did this change in 6e?

 

I thought the Unified Power Limitation had to be applied before ALL slots of a Multipower were equally affected by Adjustment powers.

[Wolf]

Re: Movement Multipowers

 

This seems like an emotional response as well.

Why does the speedster get the pass and the brick doesn't?

(Strong leg muscles)

 

No, I see my response there, as totally emotional, it's what I "feel" as a gm is right and wrong. So inherently it's emotional. With said player, I'd take the strong leg muscles into account, but I'd desire a further conversation to continue to solidify (to my acceptance) the rational.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Movement Multipowers

 

Did this change in 6e?

 

I thought the Unified Power Limitation had to be applied before ALL slots of a Multipower were equally affected by Adjustment powers.

 

p 408 discusses losing the entire Reserve of a Multipower, and when it might occur.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Movement Multipowers

 

In my opinion, they are no more 'broken' than Attack Multipowers.

 

More often than not a Character uses one Movement Type per Phase, just like they use One Attack per phase. I don't see the big deal and quite frankly, I think the concern over non-attack multipowers is utter hogwash.

 

I agree. This isn't anymore abusive than some attack builds I've seen. And I can't figure out where the "double dipping" comes from ?

[Wolf]

Re: Movement Multipowers

 

That's not my point at all. My point is - why is it suddenly a problem now? Because now we've got a rule that adds a limitation that didn't exist before?

 

I'm not buying it. Movement Multipowers are no more troublesome than any other Multipower. Combat, Non-Combat, or Mixed.

 

They should ALWAYS be conceptual in nature. It should ALWAYS make thematic and SFX sense to put ANYTHING into a Multipower. Especially a hodge-podge of Attack Powers.

 

How ELSE do you look at draining the pool reduces all the Powers abilities - which I consider to be the primary 'downside' to the Multipower Construct. Not this side issue of multiple attacks.

 

I guess here is part of our disagreement. I see the main part of a mulitpower (How I use them in most circumstances) is to make things a "one use at a time" deal. I thought that your statement that attacks could not be made multiple times was a little harsh, and somewhat erroneous. I still think (from how I go at builds) that a movement power is double dipping, but there are some things that that's okay for, others that it's not.

 

It's a problem now, because the above reasoning is how I see it. I still have yet to read the drain works separately or on the whole framework together in any conclusive way (in 6e), I've looked at adjustment powers, and even in Drain, I've even looked in the Multipower- that has comments basically saying depending on what is attempted to be taken away. Individual powers, or the whole thing.... attack the whole thing, all the others go away, outside of anything not "connected" by sfx to the larger pool. Your usually pretty quick to reference, so I have no doubt that you'll have a page number... (that was said in conversational tones, not as a gripe, it's something I like about reading your posts, you back your arguments fairly well ).

 

Yes we have to police anything, I was stating my reasoning for looking at this. At no point have I ever said in the conversation that I'd never allow it, I'm just saying one of the main limiters for me is that powers can't be used at the same time (unless pool points have been bought to make that possible, of course) and you normally can't use movement powers together as a start point. You make a good point about drains. I will acquiesce to you that it's not double dipping due to the drain effect of mulitpowers as soon as I can read the rules in that regards. How's that?