How Would You Model This?

[Rhino]

A spell that increase the damage of any bladed weapon it is cast on for the duration of a fight. It costs endurance from an endurance reserve to cast, but not to maintain or use once cast. It requires concentration, gestures, vocalization and a focus to cast, but not to maintain or use once cast. It takes extra time to cast, but not to use once cast.

 

I thought HKA was the way to go, but I think that would require endurance, concentration, gestures, etc. for each swing.

 

I thought using 3 pt. combat skill levels as a power might work, limited to only increase DC and cost endurance, but then it seems to be so much a better deal than HKA that I thought I must be missing something.

 

Any thoughts?

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: How Would You Model This?

 

Aid to HKA, bladed weapons only, etc.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How Would You Model This?

 

AID is good, as Chris says - but you may need to reduce the fade rate to make it last a whole fight.

[Rhino]

Re: How Would You Model This?

 

AID is good' date=' as Chris says - but you may need to reduce the fade rate to make it last a whole fight.[/quote']

 

Thanks guys! I'm a noobie and a bit rusty at the same time. My Hero Fu is weak.

[Mindscape]

Re: How Would You Model This?

 

Another possible option is to make a spell that applies deadly blow to the weapon. That gets rid the fade problem.

[Rhino]

Re: How Would You Model This?

 

Okay, so I want to use Aid, limited to only be used on bladed weapons. How do I cost that out? Do I pay for the active points of a 0 end HKA?

[Sean Waters]

Re: How Would You Model This?

 

Okay' date=' so I want to use Aid, limited to only be used on bladed weapons. How do I cost that out? Do I pay for the active points of a 0 end HKA?[/quote']

 

 

Couple of options (built under 6e - different cost in 5e, but similar principle), both having similar - but not identical - effect:

 

Perfect Edge: Aid Strength 5d6 (standard effect: 15 points), Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Minute; +1) (60 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about half of its effectiveness (Only for the purpose of adding damage to attacks with bladed weapons; -1) 60 active 30 real

Perfect Edge: Aid HKA 5d6 (standard effect: 15 points), Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Minute; +1) (60 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (Only for the purpose of adding damage to attacks with bladed weapons; -1/2) 60 active 40 real

 

The first AIDs STR only to increase weapon damage. i like this because it means that the spell will be less effective when used on small items - a dagger should probably never do as much damage as a two handed sword. Also you can add the damage directly: you do not need to adjust for 0 END HKAs, but you would need to adjust the damage added for, say, Armor Piercing, or any modifier that directly affects damage - just like adding normal strength. Also this would be cast on the person using the blade, not the blade itself

 

The second AIDs HKA directly - so you could potentially do a LOT of damage with a dagger - but you would have to pro-rate the added damage (I think) to account for ALL advantages including 0 END as you are actually aiding the power build - but someone may have a different view on that - I have not checked the 6e damage adding rules.

 

As with all things Hero there are many ways to do this effect

[Hyper-Man]

Re: How Would You Model This?

 

A spell that increase the damage of any bladed weapon it is cast on for the duration of a fight. It costs endurance from an endurance reserve to cast, but not to maintain or use once cast. It requires concentration, gestures, vocalization and a focus to cast, but not to maintain or use once cast. It takes extra time to cast, but not to use once cast.

 

I thought HKA was the way to go, but I think that would require endurance, concentration, gestures, etc. for each swing.

 

I thought using 3 pt. combat skill levels as a power might work, limited to only increase DC and cost endurance, but then it seems to be so much a better deal than HKA that I thought I must be missing something.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Aid is certainly one of the easiest ways to go (as well as Limited STR or CSL's) but dealing with the fade rate is still an issue.

 

Here's a much more complicated method you could also use:

 

The 6 Million Dollar Weapon - Part 1 (Primary Effect), all slots OIF (Existing Weapon Of Opportunity; -1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4), 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Hour (-1/4)

15 1) Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 2d6 (2 1/2d6 w/STR) (vs. ED) (30 Active Points) - END=0

2 2) +1 with HTH Combat (5 Active Points)

6 CASTING (The 6 Million Dollar Weapon) - Part 2 (Casting via Naked Modifier): Usable By Other (+1/4) for up to 17 Active Points of Part 1, Persistent (+1/2) (6 Active Points) - END=1

-18 CASTING (The 6 Million Dollar Weapon) - Part 3 (Limitations on Primary Effect & Castiing via Differing Modifier): (23 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x5 END; Applies only to END cost of Part 2; -2), OAF Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; Platinum Coin; -1), Requires A Skill Roll (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) for up to 23 Points of Parts 1 & 2 [Notes: Total Real Cost = 5 (15+2+6-18). Total Active Cost = 41 (30+5+6). Costs 5 END to Caster to start (Ignore listed END cost on Part 3). See 5er pages 276-277 for explanation of Differing Modifiers. See this link (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1487795&postcount=16) for HDv3 build of book example. If using a Framework based spell system this entire build (parts 1 2 and 3) should be saved separately and listed on the character sheet as a Custom Power noting Real and Active costs.] - END=10

 

 

And Let's Make that a Flaming Weapon (List - Linked to The 6 Million Dollar Weapon)

14 1) Flaming Weapon - Part 1 (Primary Effect): Killing Attack - Ranged 1 point (vs. ED), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Penetrating (+1/2), Sticky (+1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Damage Shield (Offensive; +3/4), Continuous (+1) (24 Active Points); Limited Power Only Affects Material Objects Which Strike Weapon (Flaming; -1/2), 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Hour (-1/4) - END=[1 cc]

4 2) CASTING (Flaming Weapon) - Part 2 (Casting via Naked Modifier): Usable By Other (+1/4) for up to 14 Active Points of Part 1, Persistent (+1/2) (4 Active Points) - END=1

-15 3) CASTING (Flaming Weapon) - Part 3 (Limitations on Primary Effect & Castiing via Differing Modifier): (18 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x5 END; Applies only to END cost of Part 2; -2), OAF Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; Platinum Coin; -1), Requires A Skill Roll (-1/2), Linked (Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand; The 6 Million Dollar Weapon - Part 1; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) for up to 18 Points of Parts 1 & 2 [Notes: Total Real Cost = 3 (14+4-15). Total Active Cost = 28 (24+4). Costs 5 END to Caster to start (Ignore listed END cost on Part 3). See 5er pages 276-277 for explanation of Differing Modifiers. See this link (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1487795&postcount=16) for HDv3 build of book example. If using a Framework based spell system this entire build (parts 1 2 and 3) should be saved separately and listed on the character sheet as a Custom Power noting Real and Active costs.] - END=10

 

One advantage of this method is that it clearly defines the maximum weapon damage after the effect is applied (where Aid and the other methods just add X to the initial weapon damage).

[GMumford]

Re: How Would You Model This?

 

Aid is certainly one of the easiest ways to go (as well as Limited STR or CSL's) but dealing with the fade rate is still an issue.

 

Here's a much more complicated method you could also use:

 

The 6 Million Dollar Weapon - Part 1 (Primary Effect), all slots OIF (Existing Weapon Of Opportunity; -1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4), 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Hour (-1/4)

 

Um, no. What you are trying to do is reduce the effect of Gestures and Incantations with the Continuing Charge Limitation. Improving the utility while further decreasing the cost is a no-no.

 

What's needed here is the Lingering Advantage from Fantasy Hero. You don't need to repeat Gestures, Incantations, or prerequisites for other simular limitations for 1 Phase for +1/4, 1 Turn for +1/2, 1 Minute for +3/4, 5 Minutes for +1, and so on along the Time Chart.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How Would You Model This?

 

AID sidesteps that problem but if you want to use an attack build then you can use the Time Limit advantage, which enables you to prepare an attack - with all the usual start up procedures - then have it ready to use for a certain period of time, so...

 

Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 2d6 (2d6+1 w/STR), Time Limit (5 Minutes; +1) (60 Active Points); Gestures (Requires both hands; -1/2), Incantations (-1/4), Extra Time (Full Phase, Only to Activate, -1/4) 60 Active 30 real

That would mean you gesture, incant and take a full phase to razor strop your blade but then you can attack with it for a full 5 minutes as if it was a power without those start up limitations on it.

[Rapier]

Re: How Would You Model This?

 

AID sidesteps that problem but if you want to use an attack build then you can use the Time Limit advantage' date=' which enables you to prepare an attack - with all the usual start up procedures - then have it ready to use for a certain period of time, so...[/quote']

 

I just wrote this big long post about how we needed a new Advantage for Aid that would allow you to continue to pay END and avoid the Fade Rate problem.

 

Just for grins, before I clicked Post, I thought I would check 6E. Steve is, of course, one step ahead of me. That's why he makes the big bucks, after all.

 

What you want is:

 

+4d6 Aid, Uncontrolled, (-1/2) Costs END to Maintain, OAF Bladed Weapon of Opportunity, (flavour with Gestures, Incantations, RSR)

 

FYI, I had decided that the Aid, Costs END to Maintain was going to be a 'variety' of Aid called Bolster!

[Hyper-Man]

Re: How Would You Model This?

 

Um, no. What you are trying to do is reduce the effect of Gestures and Incantations with the Continuing Charge Limitation. Improving the utility while further decreasing the cost is a no-no.

 

What's needed here is the Lingering Advantage from Fantasy Hero. You don't need to repeat Gestures, Incantations, or prerequisites for other simular limitations for 1 Phase for +1/4, 1 Turn for +1/2, 1 Minute for +3/4, 5 Minutes for +1, and so on along the Time Chart.

 

That my build improves the utility is arguable since it has a definite maximum benefit (unlike the other approaches).

Lingering definitely reduces the utility since it presupposes that the effect is only usable by the caster (he can't enchant another character's weapon).

[prestidigitator]

Re: How Would You Model This?

 

I'd go with either Aid or (limited?) UBO Combat Skill Levels, depending on the details.

[SteveZilla]

Re: How Would You Model This?

 

What about +1d6HKA, UOO?

 

But IMO Aid is probably the "cleanest" way to increase the power of someone else's Power - because that is what Aid is for.

 

Also, I'd like to point out that Sean's two versions of "Perfect Edge" would work in significantly different ways (he already covered most of the ways they would differ, so if this is redundant, bear with me. )

 

The Aid to STR would stay with the character it was used on, but would (potentially) let the character to more damage with *any* bladed weapon he used for the duration of the Aid. I don't have 6E -- is HKA damage adding still capped at double the initial value like in 5ER?

 

The Aid to HKA would stay with the specific weapon, so if the character tosses that weapon to a friend and pulls out a second blade, the other character is doing the extra damage now and not the original wielder.

[GMumford]

Re: How Would You Model This?

 

That my build improves the utility is arguable since it has a definite maximum benefit (unlike the other approaches).

Lingering definitely reduces the utility since it presupposes that the effect is only usable by the caster (he can't enchant another character's weapon).

 

First, you're going from:

Have to use Gestures and Incantations every single time you hit for -1/2.

to:

Have to use Gestures and Incantations once, but you can hit as often as you like for an hour for -3/4.

Ok, only being able to use it once a day is a trade off in utility, but I'm wary of using a limitation to reduce the effect of other limitations.

Second, I wasn't suggesting replacing the entire build with the Lingering advantage, just the Continuing Charge limitation.

+1d6 HKA, END only to activate (+1/4); Lingering (1 min, +3/4); UBO (+1/4); Concentration (1/2 DCV, -1/4); Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2); Gestures (both hands, -1/2); Incantations (-1/4); OIF (any bladed weapon, -1/2); Real Weapon (-1/4) (34 AP, 10 RP)

[Hyper-Man]

Re: How Would You Model This?

 

First, you're going from:

Have to use Gestures and Incantations every single time you hit for -1/2.

 

What are you talking about?!?

You do understand my build uses the Differing Modifiers rules from 5er pages 276-277?

 

To be clear, I was not suggesting my build was a perfect fit. I was only suggesting the build's 'Differing Modifiers' construction method could be adapted to the desired effect.

[Susano]

Re: How Would You Model This?

 

If you're using 6E, Time Limit on page 346 of 6E1 might be just what you're looking for.

[GMumford]

Re: How Would You Model This?

 

First off, Hyperman, I haven’t had a build of my own that required Usable By Other, so it has been a long while since I last read anything about Differing Modifiers. I took one look at your build and came to several erroneous assumptions. I apologize.

 

You’ve applied a Continuing Charge limitation to Killing Attack which is an instant power. Continuing Charges do not make a power constant, they limit constant powers.

 

UBO is the most important part of a Differing Modifier and shouldn’t be separated from it. From what I gather from the thread you’ve linked to, you’re putting UBO in a Naked Power Advantage to make it work properly in Hero Designer. Is that correct?

 

What I understand is Differing Modifiers work like Single Power Naked Advantages, one set of modifiers to one power. I understand you added up the values of the KA and the Combat Skill Level, but I don’t think it works that way.

 

Powers must be Constant and cost 0 END before they can be made Persistent.

 

If I got every thing down right the build should look something like this:

The 6 Million Dollar Weapon I: +2d6 HKA (30 Active Points), OIF (Existing Weapon Of Opportunity; -1/2); Real Weapon (-1/4) (17 Real Points)

Casting The 6 Million Dollar Weapon I: via Differing Modifier UBO (+¼); Continuous (+1); Persistent (+1/2) (47 AP); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Hour (-1/4); OAF Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; Platinum Coin; -1); Gestures (-1/4); Incantations (-1/4); Linked to $6MW II (-¼); Requires A Skill Roll (-½) (13 RP)

plus

The 6 Million Dollar Weapon II: +1 with HTH (5 AP), OIF (Existing Weapon Of Opportunity; -1/2); Real Weapon (-1/4) (3 RP)

Casting The 6 Million Dollar Weapon II: via Differing Modifier UBO (+¼); Persistent (+1/2) (5 AP); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Hour (-1/4); OAF Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; Platinum Coin; -1); Gestures (-1/4); Incantations (-1/4); Linked to $6MW I (-1/2); Requires A Skill Roll (-½) (1 RP) Total Cost: 14 points.

 

One advantage I see to using UBO with Differing Modifiers or UBO as an NA as opposed to Lingering and UBO applied directly to the KA is you can use the Continuous Advantage. If you want the effect to last an hour, Continuous (+1) versus Lingering (+1 ½). If Continuous were applied directly to the KA you would get a different effect.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: How Would You Model This?

 

The continuing charge is being used define the duration of the weapon transformation.

It is not making the attack continuous.

 

As far as the rest of your comments I think it best that I refer to this previous post.

 

Here's a HDv3 build of the example from the book on pages 276-277:

 

Gift of Flight Spell (by Arkelos)

[Notes: Total Cost = 5 points. END cost for Caster = 2*. END cost for recipient of spell = 5. HD figures the END cost from Active cost for parts 2 & 3 seperately but they should be counted together (3 + 16 = 19, 19/10 = 2 END). edit: Now I confused myself again. More later.]

13 1) GIFT OF FLIGHT, Part 1(Primary Effect): Flight 10" (20 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x2 END; -1/2) - END=4

3 2) Casting GIFT OF FLIGHT, Part 2 (Casting via Naked Modifier): Usable By Other (+1/4) for up to 13 Active Points of Part 1 (3 Active Points) - END=1

-11 3) Casting GIFT OF FLIGHT, Part 3 (Limitations on Primary Effect & Castiing via Differing Modifier): (16 Active Points); OAF (Magic Wand; -1), Requires A Magic Skill Roll (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) for up to 16 Points of Parts 1 & 2 - END=2

[GMumford]

Re: How Would You Model This?

 

The continuing charge is being used define the duration of the weapon transformation.

It is not making the attack continuous.

 

That's just it. KA has no duration, it's instant. That's why I moved the limitation to the Differing Modifiers that were made constant.

 

As far as the rest of your comments I think it best that I refer to this previous post.

 

So it is an HD thing. Ok.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: How Would You Model This?

 

That's just it. KA has no duration' date=' it's instant. [/quote']

 

The overall 'effect' has a duration (like most most D&D spells).

Continuing Charges are an excellent way to define the duration of that 'effect' (the improvement of an otherwise 'mundane' weapon.

What is the problem with that?

[GMumford]

Re: How Would You Model This?

 

UBO is not a constant power, even when you included it in a Differing Modifier. UBO is an advantage you seem to want to apply to an instant power to get a constant effect.

 

Look at all the examples in 5ER. In all of them UBO is applied to a constant power. Look at the index and find all the references to UOO advantages. All of them are to constant or persistant powers.

 

Imagine what this would do:

Flight 5", UAA (+1); Instant (-1/2)

 

You could toss someone 5", but hovering and complex maneuvers would not be possible. If there were any limitations such as Gestures or Incantations, they would have to be performed for each 5". And don't bother with Line Of Sight, if you want the target to go more than 5" you'll need Ranged, Usable Simultaneous, or be grappling and/or grappled by the target.

 

Adding Continuous to the Differing Modifier allows you to repeatedly and constantly grant the target an instant power.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: How Would You Model This?

 

UBO is not a constant power, even when you included it in a Differing Modifier. UBO is an advantage you seem to want to apply to an instant power to get a constant effect.

 

There is absolutely nothing in the rules for UBO stating that Continuous must be applied to granted Instant Powers to allow their use beyond a single Phase.

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: How Would You Model This?

 

There is absolutely nothing in the rules for UBO stating that Continuous must be applied to granted Instant Powers to allow their use beyond a single Phase.

 

And seeing as how the official "I Summon a Bunch of Swords" build is HKA, UBO; I have to agree with you on that.

[GMumford]

Re: How Would You Model This?

 

And seeing as how the official "I Summon a Bunch of Swords" build is HKA' date=' UBO; I have to agree with you on that.[/quote']

 

Where is this build?

 

I'd love to ask Mr. Long about this, and a few other things about Differing Modifiers, and get an official ruling, but he stated he would stop answering 5E questions December 1st and I don't have 6th yet.

 

I went back to Rino's original post an wrote up what he requested using a Differing Modifier.

 

A spell that increase the damage of any bladed weapon it is cast on for the duration of a fight. It costs endurance from an endurance reserve to cast' date=' but not to maintain or use once cast. It requires concentration, gestures, vocalization and a focus to cast, but not to maintain or use once cast. It takes extra time to cast, but not to use once cast.[/quote']

 

I came out with this:

+1d6 HKA, Reduced END (0 END, +½) (22 AP); OIF (any bladed weapon, -½) (15 RP)

Differing Modifier: UBO (+¼); Continuous (+1); Cost END Only To Activate (from END reserve, +¼); Uncontrolled (weapon loses bonus when target is disarmed, +½) (45 AP); Concentration (½ DCV, -¼); Extra Time (Extra Phase, -¾); Gestures (-¼); Incantations (-¼); OAF (magic wand, -1) Total cost: 13

 

5ER states limitations on the base power do not apply to the caster. If that can be applied to the Reduced END (0 END) advantage then there's no conflict with the Cost END Only to Activate advantage. If so, how much END does the caster spend? 2 for the base power? 4 for the Differing Modifier? 6 for both?

 

If there is a conflict, I suppose a Side Effects (END Drain) limitation could replace the Cost END Only to Activate advantage.