Firearms in fantasy?

[tarragon]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

Interesting. It has been a long time since I've done this so I may be misremembering.

 

Let me clarify, I don't recall seeing people maintain the flints or replacing them. But I also didn't read the original question well enough either. Talking at a higher level people would adjust the lock mechanism and reseat the flint occasionally. On the other hand, SSgt Baloo's find seems way to often for adjustments I remember.

 

Of course this is also 20 years ago, I'm not going to claim my memory as definitive and Baloo has a source. I'd go with that.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

It has been a long time since I've done this so I may be misremembering.

 

Insofar as the "every 10 shots or so" remark, I could probably say the same thing. The source I cited gives a ballpark figure that I'd give more weight to than my memory. Having to "fiddle with" a blackpowder firearm every so often during a battle sounds like a reasonable expectation. I do remember that after about 10 shots or so with my own "smokepole" (percussion, not flintlock) the fouling could make it difficult to reload and eventually you'd have to clear fouling from the touch-hole or it would refuse to fire. I rarely shot that much before cleaning, though, so it wasn't much of a problem. I also used a blackpowder substitute (Hogden's Pyrodex) which differs from "real" black powder in some respects.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

I seem to recall reading something somewhere about needing to change flints every 20 shots or so, but as it's a seem-to-recall, I wouldn't bet the farm on it. Game statistics are an area that can generally be fudged on, though, so go with what feels right.

[Markdoc]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

Can't help with the number of shots, but most flintlock users used to carry one or two extra fints with them suggesting that a) failure was not unexpected, it wasn't that common (or they'd have had more than one or two). A failure requiring some reknapping on an 8- would probably cover those possibilities accurately enough.

 

cheers, Mark

[Old Man]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

Am I mistaken or must the pan be kept filled with powder for the flintlock to work? This has implications if I spent the last phase bayoneting someone.

[Ragnarok]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

I could be wrong, but I seem to remember flintlocks having a swiveling pan cover, with the idea being that once you put powder in, all you have to do is swivel the cover over and that should keep the powder in. Then, you could forage or bayonet at your leisure, and when the time came to fire all you really needed to do was swivel it back.

 

That assumes having the presence of mind to swivel it beforehand, though.

 

Even if I'm wrong, that would be a useful gadget.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

True, but generally if you have a loaded weapon, you don't worry about the bayonet. That's the backup weapon.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

Am I mistaken or must the pan be kept filled with powder for the flintlock to work? This has implications if I spent the last phase bayoneting someone.

 

With any lock before percussion caps, the pan needs to be primed with fine grade priming powder (4f or 5f). Most gunlocks designs after 1500 or so include pan covers that help hold the powder in place and keep it dry. The effectiveness is highly variable, depending on the fit, design, and abuse the pan has sustained. Mid period Matchlocks usually had a geared pan cover that swung aside as the serpentine lowered the slowmatch into the pan, while earlier models and many later snaplocks required manually thumbing open the pan. Most of the wheellocks I've played with required manually opening the pan as well, though I think more expensive/later models once again used a cam driven system to open the pan when the trigger was pulled.

 

The main difference, incidentally, between Snaphaunce locks and Flintlocks was the incorporating the pan cover and the frizzen into a single unit, so that the act of firing knocks the pan open.

 

Oh, and priming is a potential key point of failure in sustained fire. One of the reloading steps is to blow out the pan to hopefully assure that there are no embers stuck in place. If, for example, you blow the pan at too steep an angle, an ember may remain under the lip at the back of the pan, which then turns your priming flask into a hand grenade (as my buddy Sparky discovered).

[Old Man]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

So... bayoneting is okay then?

[Ragnarok]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

So... bayoneting is okay then?

 

I'd say so, as long as the player remembers to close the swivel first.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

Actually that appears to be some kind of snaplock action (probably flintlock' date=' but I'm no expert), but that revolver [u']is[/u] a great find, nevertheless, and a beautiful example of the gunsmithing arts.

 

 

Cleaning: Fortunately, if your character has a supply of water, a pot and a funnel, cleaning your firearm is pretty easy, but the only cleaning solvent available to a fantasy setting are likely to be water (hot water works best). Modern cleaning instructions are listed below, but if any of our friends here are historical reenactors or active hobbyists, they will be able to explain the traditional methods used to keep one's firearm ready to use and safe from corrosion.

 

My thoughts on the above...

The absolutely beautiful revolver there is almost certainly a snaphaunce, just from looking at the furniture and design of the gun (it's very clearly a 16th C. or early 17th C., based on the pommel, stock shape and style of decoration), although a fairly advanced one... it looks like the "knobs" on the individual pan covers may function to let the lock knock open the pan during firing.

 

Assuming your "Tech tree" follows along the same approximate lines as the real world, Distillate of Naptha and clear spirits (distilled alcohol)are both pretty good solvents for black powder residue that are available in the same rough time frame.

[Markdoc]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

Also remember that bayonets were a relatively late invention, and the kind that you could stick on your gun while still being able to fire it, an even later invention. In the early days, you carried a sword as well as a gun, so once the gun was discharged you went to the sword.

 

cheers, Mark

[LordGhee]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

I have just started Running my Musketeer game and I am using the historical reloading times from the side bar. This seems to be working great the pistols used are dangerous but so far not over power the game. I also do not understand the consern express by some since we have had magic sword that do 5 6 dice of damage and wands of lighting ecxt running around.

 

Lord Ghee

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

Excerpted from something I posted in another thread:

In general, there are three methods of ignition prior to the invention of percussion ignition:

1. You light the powder charge with a smoldering wick (matchlock).
   
   
2. You light the powder charge with a mechanism that has to be wound with a key and strikes sparks from a mineral (iron pyrite) when the striker wheel turns (wheellock).
   
   
3. You light the powder charge with sparks struck from a flint against a rough surface (flintlock or similar mechanism).
   
   

For most people, that's all the complexity they need (at least when creating firearms for a fantasy campaign). Of course,

magical

"gunpowder substitutes" might have different means of actuation. Maybe there's a small speaker-tube on the weapon so the shooter's voice can give the command for the powder to do it's thing. Maybe a different chemical is introduced to the charge to set it off. Perhaps no powder is involved, but bullets are magically empowered to fling themselves from the confines of the weapon's barrel under the right circumstances. Maybe a tiny (but very,

very

tough) imp sits in the breech of the barrel with a box of even tinier matches and lights the powder charge when commanded to?

Relevant wikipedia links:

Fire Lance

 

Early Thermal Weapons

Gunpowder Warfare

 

Greek Fire

 

Grenade

 

The Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

Assuming your "Tech tree" follows along the same approximate lines as the real world' date=' Distillate of Naptha and clear spirits (distilled alcohol)are both pretty good solvents for black powder residue that are available in the same rough time frame.[/quote']

 

Actually, boiling water is a perfectly adequate solvent for conventional gunpowder residue. Some scrubbing out the barrel may be required, followed by the application of a small amount of grease or oil (lard or tallow was commonly used) to prevent corrosion.

 

Also remember that bayonets were a relatively late invention' date=' and the kind that you could stick on your gun while still being able to fire it, an even later invention. In the early days, you carried a sword as well as a gun, so once the gun was discharged you went to the sword.[/quote']

 

Actually, pikemen were interspersed with the musketeers to defend against cavalty charges. Early muskets were robust enough to be used as clubs for close-in work. Later, some bright individual figured out that if you could put a knife on the end of a musket, you could get rid of those pikemen and maybe afford some more musketmen.

 

Relevant Wikipedia articles:

Bayonet

 

Tercio

 

Musketeer

 

Pike and Shot

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

Laura Ingalls Wilder described her dad cleaning his gun in "Little House in the Big Woods". He used lots and lots of boiling water, making sure to heat the metal up really hot while doing it, so that any water left behind would evaporate faster. Once it was scrubbed clean and the rinse water came out clear, he let it dry a little and then greased it up.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

Laura Ingalls Wilder described her dad cleaning his gun in "Little House in the Big Woods". He used lots and lots of boiling water' date=' making sure to heat the metal up really hot while doing it, so that any water left behind would evaporate faster. Once it was scrubbed clean and the rinse water came out clear, he let it dry a little and then greased it up.[/quote']

 

Pretty much how I cleaned my own smokepole the first time.

[Markdoc]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

Actually' date=' pikemen were interspersed with the musketeers to defend against cavalty charges. Early muskets were robust enough to be used as clubs for close-in work. Later, some bright individual figured out that if you could put a knife on the end of a musket, you could get rid of those pikemen and maybe afford some more musketmen.[/quote']

 

Yeah, I was thinking earlier than the age of pike and shot - the earliest gunners operated without pikemen, and, indeed, the earlier pikeblocks without gunners: the swiss pikeblocks were initially supported by crossbowmen, for example (which, by the bye, would be a valid model in a fantasy world without gunpowder: in my current FH game, large battles are usually dominated by massed pikemen supported by heavily armoured guys with two handed swords and halberds and/or longbowmen). Even after pike and shot became standard, gunners still tended to rely on swords for secondary defence: you could use your expensive musket as a club if you had to - but a sword was a better choice. Bayonets don't really enter the picture until the late 17th century, where you're talking more about early modern warfare - lines of guys in bright uniforms and big hats blasting away with massed muskets. That doesn't really say fantasy to me, though Iron Kingdoms is not too far off this.

 

Of course none of this matters in a fantasy game: you could easily add bayonets, you wanted and I've seen plenty of fantasy pictures with blades added to guns. Another option, popular in Eastern Europe for centuries, was a long-handled axe. You used the axe as a rest for firing the musket, as well as a primary melee weapon - it was usually backed up by a sword, though, as with this cossack.

 

cheers, Mark

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

Of course none of this matters in a fantasy game: you could easily add bayonets' date=' you wanted and I've seen plenty of fantasy pictures with blades added to guns. Another option, popular in Eastern Europe for centuries, was a long-handled axe. You used the axe as a rest for firing the musket, as well as a primary melee weapon - it was usually backed up by a sword, though, as with this cossack.

 

That cossack is a great find. Repped.

 

ISTR that the earliest bayonets were essentially big knives with handles that could be jammed into the end of one's musket barrel, turning it into a makeshift pike. Swords as backup weapons makes sense, both militarily and otherwise, as hunters/soldiers without the luxury of reloading before the boar/enemy soldier charges will have to use something lethal very quickly if they want to remain alive and unharmed.

 

If you rule that firearms are "armor-piercing" (however you define it) against normal armor, it should also be armor piercing against normal animals with "natural armor". Dragons and the like might be exempt, so you might want to reconsider sending the musketeers without a lot of extra soldiers, some sort of anti-dragon magic, or a(n extremely) clever plan.

[Basil]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

That cossack is a great find. Repped.

 

ISTR that the earliest bayonets were essentially big knives with handles that could be jammed into the end of one's musket barrel, turning it into a makeshift pike.

Yep. Hence the term "plug bayonet" that's usually applied to what you're talking about. Note that they had fairly good sized cross-guards, since that's what you grabbed to pull the plug bayonet out of the barrel on the gun.

 

Woe betide the fellow whose bayonet's cross guards got hacked off!

[Old Man]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

If you rule that firearms are "armor-piercing" (however you define it) against normal armor, it should also be armor piercing against normal animals with "natural armor". Dragons and the like might be exempt, so you might want to reconsider sending the musketeers without a lot of extra soldiers, some sort of anti-dragon magic, or a(n extremely) clever plan.

 

Character of mine once shot down a dragon with a 9mm Beretta. So, yeah.

[AlHazred]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

I plan on using black powder weapons in my High Fantasy Hero game. I was thinking of using Fitz's AP rules: http://fitz.jsr.com/roleplay/hero/fantasy/highfantasyhero/combatandadventuring.html#armourpiercing

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

I plan on using black powder weapons in my High Fantasy Hero game. I was thinking of using Fitz's AP rules: http://fitz.jsr.com/roleplay/hero/fantasy/highfantasyhero/combatandadventuring.html#armourpiercing

 

hmmm, looks like a variant on the variant AP suggestion Steve Perrin made back in AC#20, except totally nerfed.

Note that, while it won't matter for free gear, I suggest that NO ONE will pay the points for a +1/2 Advantage that removes an average of 1 DEF per 3 DC's worth of KA. That's what... 3 or 5 points worth of Piercing?

[AlHazred]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

Well, now, since I'm only using it for gear and spells, both of which I as GM will specify, the players' choices come down to: 1) I have AP on my attack, or 2) I don't have AP on my attack. They're welcome to go non-AP for everything if they like.

 

I think the cost has to be modified given the new pricing structure in 6E. In any case, using that rule makes it easier to define firearms as more heavily AP than other weapons. Under normal AP rules, there's not much to differentiate them, but using this there's a real benefit to multiple levels. I figure crossbows can be 1 level of AP, black powder firearms 2 or 3. Consequently, Hardening becomes more important and the advantage of plate-and-chain or plate armor (the only kinds I normally allow Hardening on) becomes obvious.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

Well, now, since I'm only using it for gear and spells, both of which I as GM will specify, the players' choices come down to: 1) I have AP on my attack, or 2) I don't have AP on my attack. They're welcome to go non-AP for everything if they like.

 

I think the cost has to be modified given the new pricing structure in 6E. In any case, using that rule makes it easier to define firearms as more heavily AP than other weapons. Under normal AP rules, there's not much to differentiate them, but using this there's a real benefit to multiple levels. I figure crossbows can be 1 level of AP, black powder firearms 2 or 3. Consequently, Hardening becomes more important and the advantage of plate-and-chain or plate armor (the only kinds I normally allow Hardening on) becomes obvious.

 

Indeed. I've always liked Perrin's original suggestion, and I had a house ruled Advantage similar to this in my Star HERO campaign (although that removed DEF until repaired rather than providing just extra penetration).

It's a workable variant, but as written it's probably only worth +1/4 per level to get something closer to balanced values