Firearms in fantasy?

[Ragnarok]

I've recently started to develop an idea for a dark, low fantasy game that hopefully will see use somewhere down the line. One of the things I'm trying to figure out is how firearms interact with fantasy games. I had thought about very limited use of matchlock weaponry. There would be a very finite amount of firearms in the world, as the only civilization that knew how to create and repair these weapons had been wiped out by a massive plague, and no one has dared exploring for plans or anything of that kind. Plus, any gunsmiths who had survived the plague are dying off now (old age.)

 

A hit from a matchlock would do more damage than an arrow because of the sheer blunt impact effect, but I was thinking of several limiting factors;

 

• Reload time - full phase to reload?
  
• Activation roll - significant chance of misfire
  
• Unusable in wet conditions
  
• Inaccurate - OCV bonuses prohibited or severely limited, maybe even OCV penalties
  
• Loud - no stealth factor (a matchlock silencer would be pretty hilarious however)
  

 

I would appreciate any input from those who have successfully or unsuccessfully used firearms in their game. Basically, how well (or poorly) did it mesh with your game? Was it overpowered? The idea here is to explore the possibility of a high damage exotic weapon to make it potentially rival a bow, but limit it so it's not too overpowered. Thanks in advance for the tips!

[mayapuppies]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

Well, I have yet to add them into my game world, but I will be playtesting the following designs for my next world book:

Wheel Lock Carbine: Killing Attack - Ranged 1 1/2d6, Armor Piercing (+1/2) (37 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Turn, -1 1/4), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (-5 to all Range Modifiers; -1), STR Minimum 11 (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; -1), Activation Roll 12- (-3/4), 6 Charges (-3/4), Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (1/2 DCV; -1/2), Required Hands Two-Handed (-1/2), Beam (-1/4), Limited Range (68"; -1/4)

Wheel Lock Musket: Killing Attack - Ranged 1 1/2d6, Armor Piercing (+1/2) (37 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Turn, -1 1/4), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (-4 to all Range Modifiers; -1), STR Minimum 12 (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; -1), Activation Roll 12- (-3/4), 6 Charges (-3/4), Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (1/2 DCV; -1/2), Required Hands Two-Handed (-1/2), Beam (-1/4), Limited Range (114"; -1/4), Conditional Power (Cannot be used while mounted; -1/4)

Wheel Lock Pistol: Killing Attack - Ranged 1 1/2d6, Armor Piercing (+1/2) (37 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Turn, -1 1/4), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (-7 to all Range Modifiers; -1), STR Minimum 9 (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; -1), Activation Roll 12- (-3/4), 6 Charges (-3/4), Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (1/2 DCV; -1/2), Beam (-1/4), Limited Range (14"; -1/4)

I've also made them exorbitantly expensive and will outlaw the ability of PC's to make their own. Now, I have not actually used these builds in a game as yet, so I have no idea if they are too extreme in either direction. These are first run designs.

[Cancer]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

Remember too that artillery-class gunpowder weapons came long before personal gunpowder weaponry: there were mortars and bombards in use before effective collections of arquebus-armed infantrymen were formed. It's just easier (if more dangerous) to make the larger pieces when the technology is still being explored. And artillery, of course, is "the last argument of kings", because for a while only national armies could afford any artillery.

[Panpiper]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

Napoleonic era, a good soldier could load and fire his weapon three times a minute, or two turns per shot. A more primitive arquebus might well take as much as a minute. So it is pretty much in the context of Hero, a fire once and close to melee weapon. Early arquebus fired large bullets at a relatively low velocity and were not actually very good at penetrating good plate armor. (It was quite common for good armor at a certain point to have a pistol shot indentation somewhere on the armor, having actually been shot by the armor maker as proof of it's ability to actually stop the shot.) So give it a very high damage due to the size of the shot, but with reduced penetration.

[Ragnarok]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

Brilliant, thank you!

 

I also decided that that no PC will be a gunsmith, and that possessing one is a sign of status, and is so rare that the prospect of purchasing one would probably equivalent to purchasing a small plane in modern times. The King's hunters might have them, but they'd have to be pretty highly favored.

 

Anyone else have comments or suggestions?

[Cancer]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

With such low rates of fire, you got the mixed musket & pike formations, so the musketeers could run & hide behind the pike phalanx as they reloaded.

 

Don't forget blunderbus type guns, too, with area effect, reduced penetration.

[Markdoc]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

Napoleonic era' date=' a good soldier could load and fire his weapon three times a minute, or two turns per shot. A more primitive arquebus might well take as much as a minute. So it is pretty much in the context of Hero, a fire once and close to melee weapon. Early arquebus fired large bullets at a relatively low velocity and were not actually very good at penetrating good plate armor. (It was quite common for good armor at a certain point to have a pistol shot indentation somewhere on the armor, having actually been shot by the armor maker as proof of it's ability to actually stop the shot.) So give it a very high damage due to the size of the shot, but with reduced penetration.[/quote']

 

Actually, "shot proof" armour was very expensive, high quality stuff - and was usually tested at a good safe range, with a pistol. It's a late development. Arquebuses were quite good - better than longbows - in penetrating armour at close range, but their effectiveness dropped significantly out over about 50 metres (at least according to Prof. Toll, who's tested a lot of reconstructions). It seems to have bene a short-range shock weapon.

 

The big drawbacks to early guns are 1) reloading times - expert gunners could fire slightly more than one shot a minute. 2) the difficulty of making powder - and keeping it. Until the invention of "corning" (ie: making grains of gunpowder) the stuff tended to stick and settle - swiftly turning into a clump that you could't use. As a result, it had to be made fresh on a regular basis. However by 1500 (not medieval, but still, plenty of armoured horsemen about) the arqubus was not only replacing the long bow and crossbow, but it was starting to make both knights and pikes obsolete as well.

 

Given the long reloading times, I don't see early guns being unbalancing. They might have better armour penetration than bows, but the reload time, as someone has already mentioned, makes them pretty much a once-per-encounter weapon.

 

cheers, Mark

[Cancer]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

The REAL reason for gunpowder weapons, though, is to give the PCs a target. There are very few things you can count on making a more humongous bang than an army's powder wagon.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

I always liked the pirate era of swords & pistols, and a little steampunk in my campaigns.

 

I basically made all guns AP or Penetrating, and used long reloads as suggested. The only time I played in such a setting, my character had a wheellock 4-shot Rifle that took a full turn per chamber to reload, then a brace of single shot pistols, then a sword. Fire the rifle 4 times, sling it, quick draw and fire the 6 one-shot pistols, and then close with sword if anything was still left

 

Cost was and always will be the turning point of any new tech - guns are superior to swords and bows, but were insanely expensive and delicate at first, so you don't have to artificially limit guns in a fantasy setting to be awesomely better or terribly worse than lower tech weaponry. A 1 1/2 d6 AP KA Stilleto and a 1 1/2 d6 AP RKA Pistol are perfectly able to co-exist and have natural limits and advantages - the stilleto is quiet and just as deadly, but you have to get close. The pistol, on the other hand, can kill from a distance but you are going to wake the neigbors.. and alert the guards, etc.

 

And again, the rate of fire issue is easily solved by having your "brace" of pistols - 6 to 8 of them pre-loaded, ready to fire, and tucked into that stylish bandolier.

[dmjalund]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

whay weren't the gunsmiths taking on apprentices?

[Ragnarok]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

whay weren't the gunsmiths taking on apprentices?

 

Well my initial idea was threefold:

 

Gunsmiths lived in the city. 99.99% (or something close) of the city's population was completely wiped out. One or two got away.

 

They may have brought a couple tools to repair weapons but nothing to create them long-term. They, like all others, were concerned with primal necessities rather than technological innovation.

 

Anyone from the city would be shunned by the rural communities that survived. Quarantine issue, etc.

[Ragnarok]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

@Kraven Kor - The only one who would be able to afford 6-8 pistols, let alone a musket, would be the king. The PC had better have a really, really, really good reason to have that much on him.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

I know we've covered this in depth a few times before, but my search attempts have failed,so I'll summarize.

 

Normally I'd load this with quotes, by I can't find my copy of Elizabethan Military Science, so I'm improvising based on memory.

 

Some general notes that haven't been covered yet.

 

While pistols and arquebuses (carbines) have been mentioned appropriately, it's worth noting that the next step in shoulder arms is the caliver, while a musket is properly more of a light support weapon (up till the early to mid 17th century, note the name, which follows the "birds of prey" naming conventions used in period artillery), fulfilling a similar role to a .50 anti-materiel rifle in modern terms. Muskets were too heavy to be properly shoulder-fired without a rest, and were fairly long ranged weapons... a common period method of testing them was to determine the range, in paces (one pace is about 1 m.), at which they would penetrate a "proofed" breastplate, then at which they would penetrate non-proofed harness, then at which they would penetrate unarmored flesh, thus establishing various range bands. Commanders each had their own ideas about what was the best mix of shoulder arms for a unit of shot, with arquebuses being favored for cavalry and skirmishers, while any of the three could be found among footmen. The extra range and stopping power of a musket was offset by the weight, bulk, and length (made 'em harder to reload without an assistant), reducing the ability of the gunner to wear armor and increasing the likelihood that the gun would be abandoned during a retreat.

 

the various types of gunlocks should all have slightly different Limitations to reflect the quirks of the varying types. Note that early precursors to flintlocks were introduced almost a hundred years before the flintlock was refined and started edging out the competition.. no reason in a Fantasy world that Snaphaunces & doglocks couldn't have gained an earlier ascendancy. Rifling and double set triggers were both known in the 1500's as well, but were uncommon in fighting arms, but rather were the province of hunting guns... rifling in particular was un-fun under battlefield conditions, what with having to drive your ball down into the grooves with a rod & mallet.

 

Another important thing to remember when constructing write-ups is that black power is fairly slow burning, and thus barrel length is possibly even more important to damage than it is in modern guns. I'd suggest choosing a starting DC value for a particular bore (caliber), then knocking it up +1 DC per "category". I give my guns a +1 Stun Mod to reflect the renowned (at the time) stopping power they had compared to arrows. I'm not sure if I prefer going with Semi-AP for pistols & arquebuses and AP for calivers & muskets, or building them with varying amounts of Piercing (perhaps limited so you get to use one point of Piercing per point you make your attack roll by, to represent the adding punch of a solid hit).

 

Another thing mentioned frequently in period discussions is the benefits of shooting at point and blank range, not only for the accuracy, but the extra hitting power. With this in mind, I favor building them with extra DC's of damage with the Lim "Reduced by Range". Oh, and they should use Boostable Charges, and fairly nasty Side Effects. While Jammed would be appropriate, I tend to prefer Requires a Skill Roll, as the vast majority of catastrophic failures I've encountered have been operator error.

 

Ack... out of time on my lunch break. I'm happy to field any questions later.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

They may have brought a couple tools to repair weapons but nothing to create them long-term. They, like all others, were concerned with primal necessities rather than technological innovation.

 

just an FYI, there aren't really any special tools needed to make simple smoothbore muzzleloaders.

 

A foundry to cast the barrels, an auger to bore'em, a hacksaw and files are all you really need. (speaking from personal experience on this one)

[Shadowsoul]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

Link to an earlier discussion. And another link to a thread where Spence posted his Blackpowder Guideline, which I cribbed along with notes by Captain Obvious for use in my Black Powder Fantasy game.

[Beast]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

matchlocks work on just a pivot point weighted to to keep the match up(a bump can have the match in the pan so until you are ready to fire you keep the match in your non trigger hand

gunsmithing from this point can be done by a blacksmith

also cannons are made using bell making methods

 

the big thing I'm getting at is if there are examples,people can take them apart and reverse engineer them

what you need to have select people covet is the formula to making black powder

[Beast]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

you would want to have a brace of pistols for combat as to have multiple shots during a combat

 

 

Actually, "shot proof" armour was very expensive, high quality stuff - and was usually tested at a good safe range, with a pistol. It's a late development. Arquebuses were quite good - better than longbows - in penetrating armour at close range, but their effectiveness dropped significantly out over about 50 metres (at least according to Prof. Toll, who's tested a lot of reconstructions). It seems to have bene a short-range shock weapon.

 

The big drawbacks to early guns are 1) reloading times - expert gunners could fire slightly more than one shot a minute. 2) the difficulty of making powder - and keeping it. Until the invention of "corning" (ie: making grains of gunpowder) the stuff tended to stick and settle - swiftly turning into a clump that you could't use. As a result, it had to be made fresh on a regular basis. However by 1500 (not medieval, but still, plenty of armoured horsemen about) the arqubus was not only replacing the long bow and crossbow, but it was starting to make both knights and pikes obsolete as well.

 

Given the long reloading times, I don't see early guns being unbalancing. They might have better armour penetration than bows, but the reload time, as someone has already mentioned, makes them pretty much a once-per-encounter weapon.

 

cheers, Mark

[tkdguy]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

Ancient firearms

 

I had that question a while back. Keep in mind my campaign was set in an era similar to the 17th century, so it may not fit your needs fully, but there were a lot of good ideas there.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

A couple of nice visual references...

The Rifle Shoppe Catalog

 

Dave Luckhardt's site for The Earl of Stamford's Regiment of Foote

(especially note the guns made by Dale Shinn.... he's one of the best in the biz)

[Basil]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

In a fantasy game, there's no need to follow historical events too closely.

 

For instance, here's an idea I had---some mages have been trying to "distill" pure mana. They have gotten impure mana, which seems to have little use. EXCEPT is goes *BOOM* quite nicely. Strange but true; concentrated mana is explosive!

 

Well.....that's what the people in the game world think; in fact, they've managed to distill a little bit of mana, mixed in with some carbon, sulfur, and saltpeter. Since there *is* detectable mana in there, everyone thinks it explodes due to the mana, rather than the "slag".

 

Thus, no-one realizes that the way to improve the gunpowder is not with magic. So, the powder is very poor quality, takes a very long time to burn, and should be used with 2-3 meter long barrels---but they don't know that, so they use barrels around 1 meter (for handle-ability) and waste most of what little power the powder has. Ergo, guns are no more powerful than bows.

 

BTW, gunpowder that had not been corned not only clumped, but was so fine a powder it leaked out of the barrels and formed a cloud around the powder train. A very explosive cloud.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

My FH setting features black powder & guns, but as some of my primary influences on the design were The Saga of Recluse and The Coldfire Trilogy, the main limit to firearms is magic. Guns and powder are hideously vulnerable to magic, which means that either the weapon and associated magazines, etc all have to be protected by some form of anti-magic, be it inherent Order-infused construction, magicked to be protected or simply protected by the abilities of the wielder. I adopted a form of the "water is inherently anti-magical" trope from both these series' to allow the same thing they did... tall ships with cannon.

 

While the specifics are setting related, the point stands...

Creating a spark is an apprentice trick to most magic systems, but enough flame to spark a candle can kill a whole unit of unprotected gunners if you catch 'em close enough to the powder magazine.

 

Having to figure out how to protect your expensive weapons and/or troops is sort of vital to integrating them into any game also involving magic...

Maybe THAT'S the lost secret of the ancients... how to make an anti-magical alloy to protect the weapons and flasks from interference. Could be a good reason for having them decorated six ways from Sunday too.... the ornate inlay is the anti-magic stuff

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

My FH setting features black powder & guns' date=' but as some of my primary influences on the design were [i']The Saga of Recluse[/i] and The Coldfire Trilogy, the main limit to firearms is magic. Guns and powder are hideously vulnerable to magic, which means that either the weapon and associated magazines, etc all have to be protected by some form of anti-magic, be it inherent Order-infused construction, magicked to be protected or simply protected by the abilities of the wielder. I adopted a form of the "water is inherently anti-magical" trope from both these series' to allow the same thing they did... tall ships with cannon.

 

While the specifics are setting related, the point stands...

Creating a spark is an apprentice trick to most magic systems, but enough flame to spark a candle can kill a whole unit of unprotected gunners if you catch 'em close enough to the powder magazine.

 

Having to figure out how to protect your expensive weapons and/or troops is sort of vital to integrating them into any game also involving magic...

Maybe THAT'S the lost secret of the ancients... how to make an anti-magical alloy to protect the weapons and flasks from interference. Could be a good reason for having them decorated six ways from Sunday too.... the ornate inlay is the anti-magic stuff

 

Ooooohhhh... it just hit me that adding the Opposing Skill Roll modifier to the RSR, with Magic Skill as the opposing the skill is a nasty simple way to do it, especially if the Major Side Effects are *BOOM*

[tkdguy]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

In the Forgotten Realms setting, smoke powder is that world's counterpart to gunpowder.

[TSandman]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

Napoleonic era' date=' a good soldier could load and fire his weapon three times a minute, or two turns per shot.[/quote']

 

In a Rank and File voley it was about 3 shot a minute. In skirmish situation with Fire A Will, a good soldier could do 4 shot a minute (see Wikipedia on Musket, the Loading & Firering section)

[TSandman]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

Iron Kingdom is a nice fantasy setting with LOTS of guns... and Weird Magic

 

Guns are Lethal... but things are offset by loading time and the COST of the rounds (had a player crying every time he shot: " 12 GP... 12 GP..." That was because in the IK background, the "Blasting Powder" is an alchemical substance that took a long time to create and a Quartel is controlling it's creation/distribution/sale