What value for Limitation of a defense Power that only works when Combat Luck does?

[Trebuchet]

As the thread title says, what Limitation value in 5ER would you give for a supplementary defensive Power that only works if Combat Luck applies? (There are other Limitations on this Power, but even if those conditions are met it still doesn't protect if the PC's Combat Luck wouldn't apply.)

 

I have a value in mind, but I thought I'd see if I'm out of line.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: What value for Limitation of a defense Power that only works when Combat Luck doe

 

I'd give it the same -1/2 "Luck Based" Limitation as Combat Luck itself.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: What value for Limitation of a defense Power that only works when Combat Luck doe

 

Like SCUBA, I'd give it the same Limitations as the Combat Luck, but I'd add "Linked to Combat Luck." This is precisely what "Linked" models.

[sobran]

Re: What value for Limitation of a defense Power that only works when Combat Luck doe

 

Like SCUBA' date=' I'd give it the same Limitations as the Combat Luck, but I'd add "Linked to Combat Luck." This is precisely what "Linked" models.[/quote']

I'm not sure if I would actually use Linked in this particular case. You are already limiting it to specific instances when Combat Luck is active, so it kind of seems like double dipping. If Combat Luck being drained or suppressed is a reasonably likely occurrence in the campaign, then I would accept the Linked limitation. I guess I'm used to playing in heroic campaigns.

[Matt Holck]

Re: What value for Limitation of a defense Power that only works when Combat Luck doe

 

my games center around 225 point start up characters

these days that's low level supers

[the fox]

Re: What value for Limitation of a defense Power that only works when Combat Luck doe

 

wouldn't "Linked to Combat Luck" automatically give me this Limitation, Bushido?

Plus limit it further, if Drains are likely. I'd go with SCUBA, whose suggestion is not like your own.

[Vondy]

Re: What value for Limitation of a defense Power that only works when Combat Luck doe

 

I wouldn't link it. I'd just build the second defense power with the same limitations.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: What value for Limitation of a defense Power that only works when Combat Luck doe

 

wouldn't "Linked to Combat Luck" automatically give me this Limitation, Bushido?

Plus limit it further, if Drains are likely. I'd go with SCUBA, whose suggestion is not like your own.

 

To the best of my knowledge, Linked doesn't automatically impart the same advantages or limitations as the power being piggybacked.

 

I may well be book-wrong there; I am not certain now.

 

However, which parts of :

 

"I'd give it the same -1/2 "Luck Based" Limitation as Combat Luck itself"

 

and

 

"I'd give it the same Limitations as the Combat Luck"

 

are not alike?

 

 

I'm not sure if I would actually use Linked in this particular case. You are already limiting it to specific instances when Combat Luck is active' date=' so it kind of seems like double dipping.[/quote']

 

I can appreciate that. From the title of the thread, I got the impression that the power would only work when Combat Luck was working. If the power works independently of CL, but only under the same conditions, then Linked certainly would be double-dipping.

 

Hmm.....

 

Maybe an either / or is better here. Linked if CL _must_ be "in effect," and matching Limitations if it's independent but requires similar circumstances.

 

I guess I'm used to playing in heroic campaigns.

 

I don't play much supers myself. Primarily space opera the past few years.

[Trebuchet]

Re: What value for Limitation of a defense Power that only works when Combat Luck doe

 

I wouldn't link it. I'd just build the second defense power with the same limitations.

This is the path I'm going to go with. The Combat Luck is always in play' date=' but the 25% Damage Reduction only applies at such times as Combat Luck would apply [u']and[/u] in Heroic ID.

 

Thanks for the input, everyone.

 

Now for another question: Does non-Resistant Damage Reduction still apply against the Stun from a Killing Attack, or does that require Resistant DR?

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: What value for Limitation of a defense Power that only works when Combat Luck doe

 

Now for another question: Does non-Resistant Damage Reduction still apply against the Stun from a Killing Attack' date=' or does that require Resistant DR?[/quote']In 5e, no (you need Resistant DR). In 6e, since all defenses are applied against the Stun from a Killing Attack, yes.

[the fox]

Re: What value for Limitation of a defense Power that only works when Combat Luck doe

 

If you link to a power with a 14- Activation roll or 8 charges, what happens when you fail that roll, or run down those charges?

Actually, I'll correct myself and say there is no placing of limitations from power to linked power, nor must they be purchased, not even with charges!

So, if you fail the activation roll, you may still use the 2nd power; the 2nd power may have whatever limitations it wants.

If it wishes to 'share' the activation roll, charges, etc., just give it the same limitations. Some may assume such is the case, where all the limitations are shared.

 

Which would make it legal, except the power Combat Luck is a power that is constantly 'on', even when it fails, with no costs in endurance or anything!

The only actual limitation to the Linked power then is if the power it is based on drained or suppressed; this may fall under the category "limits that don't limit aren't limits!"

or "perhaps a -1/4 at best; does this power have another minor limitation?".

 

5th edition has 3 modifiers that each reduce the Linked Limitation, maximum value -1/2; -1/4 value for Linking a Greater Power to a Lesser Power.

 

1/4 less limitation: Linked Power need not be used proportionately to Power with which it is Linked.

1/4 less limitation: Greater Power is Constant or in use most or all of the time.

1/4 less limitation: Lesser Instant Power can be used in any Phase in which greater Constant Power is in use.

 

Thus a Lesser Instant Power can gain no bonus with a Greater Constant Power in use most or all of the time!

[bigbywolfe]

Re: What value for Limitation of a defense Power that only works when Combat Luck doe

 

It may be "constantly 'on'" as you say, but it doesn't constantly work. There are specific circumstances where combat luck doesn't work. Why wouldn't another Power that doesn't work under those same conditions have the same Limitation?

[the fox]

Re: What value for Limitation of a defense Power that only works when Combat Luck doe

 

What I was thinking of originally was my admittedly old ruling, that linked powers automatically, without further limitations, gain the the limitations of the greater power, and gain the same mechanic.

This was done for simplicity, balance and "how the limitation worked". 'Based on' was a (+!) - 1/2 lim., using a simple 'whenever on' limitation.

If you choose to limit the base power, well based on gets it, and not in a good way! Also remember, there was no 'proportional', the rare drain or transfer must turn it off the greater power by going below it's minimum points, only really likely to happen with a main power of Desolid at 40 pts., fortunately you may buy +1 BOD/phase per 5 pts. to buffer, so you're less likely to get stuck in a wall.

All very good reasons, but the rule book states nothing of the kind !!!

Skipping ahead to 4th edition, it becomes Linked, 'whenever on', example RKA w/o limitation, with Flash. No other examples given and Dragonfly does not use this to link his attacks!

Once again, the rule book states 'nothing of the kind', nothing about other limitations and examples become rare to non-existent for this limitation! May I presume it's only rarely a limitation that actually limits the power? What if it's based on a limited power? Would this serve to 'actually' limit the lesser power, by this simple mechanic?

 

But then I reversed this, and stated the opposite case, where they do not carry! Why? Because all of my rulebooks* state nothing of the kind!

* Sidekick and Resource Kit Booklet and Screen, poor substitute for FRED here? also Champions 2nd, 3rd, 4th. and too many character books to look through for an example of this rare occurrence, so you'll have to help me out! Where in the rulebooks does it state the linked power is limited by it's 'parent' powers limitations? Short answer: it doesn't, it only states when it is 'on'! So I reversed it to, "heck, it's got the same limitations, why not save a few points?!!".

 

So,tell me where I am wrong, one way or the other on this, seriously and if you would please!

Hopefully a FAQ question or the 6th edition rulebook definition includes an answer on this!

Is it, "Of course it's got the same limitations, you didn't want more points for that, well, do you?" or "why must it have the same limitations, besides the fact that one must be 'on'?"?

 

So, Bigbywolfe, where you responding for my 1st or 2nd post? Your question is, "Why wouldn't another Power that doesn't work under those same conditions have the same Limitation?"

A1. so are you saying they should? have the same limitation? With or without additional points? I said of course they should, without points, though, kinda automatically, because when one is on and limited it 'turns off' when that limitation is in effect, like when you run out of charges or blow an activation roll, the second power is affected (misleading examples; along with focus, see below!).

A2. Nowhere in the rules state that you get any limitations, other than the other power must be on; separate limitations may be bought, funny, why don't I see this more often?

[the fox]

Re: What value for Limitation of a defense Power that only works when Combat Luck doe

 

Doc Sampson's example from three years back:

Here is an example for a 60 Max Active campaign.

-6d6 EB, NND(+1), Limited Power "Animate Objects Only" (+0, because NNDs don't do body anyway), 16 Charges (+0), OAF "Gun" (-1) 30 pts.

-12d6 EB, Limited Power "Inanimate Objects Only" (-2), Linked to NND (-1/2), 16 Charges (+0), OAF "Gun" (-1) 13 pts.

-Extra Dimensional Movement, Single Location/ Single Dimension, "Hell", UAA(+1), Limited Power "undead and creatures of evil magic only" (-1, I'm calling it a -1 but this is based on how ofted you fight them), Linked to NND (-1/2), 16 Charges (+0), OAF "Gun" (-1) 16 pts.

Total Cost 59 pts.

 

Sorry, long complicated post before! This example is much clearer! Clearly, powers need not share limitations, nor are any 'imparted'';

if Linked powers share a limitation they may or must use the same mechanic (OIF, charges, activation rolls, etc.).

 

As for Combat Luck, I consider it a constant power that can't even be turned off;

if it's 'not working, not applicable' that is not the same as it being 'off'.

 

So, yes, you can put both limitations on the power, and they may/must share the same mechanic.

The problem is the Linked limitation itself, and what is being linked to; so no.

[Trebuchet]

Re: What value for Limitation of a defense Power that only works when Combat Luck doe

 

As for Combat Luck' date=' I consider it a constant power that can't even be turned off[i']; [/i]if it's 'not working, not applicable' that is not the same as it being 'off'.

 

Combat Luck is a Talent, not a Power, and any Power that is not Inherent or Always On can be turned off at will although the methods, depending on the sfx, can certainly vary. The same would undoubtedly apply to Talents.

[the fox]

Re: What value for Limitation of a defense Power that only works when Combat Luck doe

 

yes, that's why I didn't capitalize constant or power, I wasn't sure.

'Constant Power' was the distinction the 5th edition rules used for a Greater Power to 'lessen' this limitation; IMO this would apply doubly so to Inherent or Always On.

 

and, err, there is 1 way to negate (or turn off?) Combat Luck that I know of; 'taking a shot' for someone or other harm's way, I believe.

As far as some sfx goes this 'goes with the territory'; you might get a warning, but it isn't even a zero phase action, one way or the other.

[tesuji]

Re: What value for Limitation of a defense Power that only works when Combat Luck doe

 

It may be "constantly 'on'" as you say' date=' but it doesn't constantly work. There are specific circumstances where combat luck doesn't work. Why wouldn't another Power that doesn't work under those same conditions have the same Limitation?[/quote']

 

Ok here is my take...

 

we have this combat luck which only works in certain cases and so gets a -1/2

 

we have theis second power which also only works when combat luck does.

 

it also gets the same limitations. you are right there.

 

But with linked, link can be -12 or down to -0 depending on how limiting being linked is.

 

Since the other power already has the points for "in the cases combat luck wont apply, this wont either" then the linked is not providing any additional problems, so linked is -0.

 

So, yes it gets the same lims but that makes the balue of linked -0.

 

now if the campaign featured enough "drain/dispel combat luck to make that worth a lim, so that the linked would be a problem, thenthe link gets a value. But for any game i have run that would be very rare, too rare to matter.

 

that said, if the player insisted on -1/4 for linked or even -1/2 i would agree, and alter the frequency of "drain/dispel bs combat luck" and other such things to make the limitation worth its points. essentially i would add a personalized villain or group who routinely had such counters and wrap plot around them. So net result is he would see his combat luck and other defense taken down about half the time (net effect from a -1 lim) but would gain a specialized personalized plot line too.