Need Help Building a Dog Follower

[likwidneo]

My character is a K-9 Police Officer in a 5E Post Apocalyptic Hero zombie campaign. I have a LOT of questions in regards to this issue, questions I'm sure could be solved with a copy of Hero Systems Bestiary, but I'll have to make due with the books I have. She has with her a K-9 Dog Follower, Boomer.

 

I am having a particularly difficult time building the dog's enhanced sense of smell. I've given Boomer tracking as a skill, and +3 PER with Normal Smell, but I'm not sure how to go about the rest of it. I'm having a hard time with the idea of buying Naked Sensory Modifiers, specifically Discriminatory and Tracking, but I'm also toying with Microscopic and Telescopic. One of the distinct functions I want for Boomer is the ability to detect and track zombies with his sense of smell. But, one of my key questions is, if his sense of smell is fine tuned enough as it is, do I need to buy Detect specifically for this purpose if I've already bought everything and it's mother to augment his sense of smell and his tracking abilities? I'm coming to the boards first because my GM works retail and is particularly hard to reach during the holidays.

 

Any advice on this subject, or on building a Dog Follower in general, from anyone who has some experience with this particular issue, would be greatly appreciated.

[dmjalund]

Re: Need Help Building a Dog Follower

 

it should be no harder to buy Discriminatory for smell than it is to buy 360 degree for your vision

[mayapuppies]

Re: Need Help Building a Dog Follower

 

Taken from the Bestiary for a Guard Dog

Canine Senses: +3 PER with All Sense Groups

Canine Nose: Tracking with Normal Smell

Canine Ears: Ultrasonic Perception (Hearing Group) (Hearing Group)

[likwidneo]

Re: Need Help Building a Dog Follower

 

thanks for the input. i never even though about Ultrasonic Hearing. my main concern though is the ability to warn me when zombies are in the nearby vicinity. The more thought I give this, the more I realize that this can be handled as one of two ways, either by a Tracking Skill Roll, or by a Detect Roll, or possibly both. I'm not sure how I should go about this one particular issue.

[the fox]

Re: Need Help Building a Dog Follower

 

Canine Senses: +3 PER with All Sense Groups

Canine Nose: Tracking with Normal Smell

certain discriminatory features can just be 'heightened sense of smell, w/Tracking ability'.

Detecting 'individual odors/scent cues' makes up for Boomer's rather poor eyesight. these 'extra detects' are just things we can simply see, so it all balances out in the end.

Canine Ears: Ultrasonic Perception (Hearing Group) (Hearing Group)

Forgot about this one! Be sure to get your free dog whistle!

[the fox]

Re: Need Help Building a Dog Follower

 

Boomer can detect unusual odors, and is trained to alert you. I would include early on-set zombies or 'the infected', who gradually lose their individual scents and smell more like zombies.

Tracking zombies as a whole is pretty easy. As more people turn into zombies, 'fresh tracks' i.e. living individuals become easier to discern (fewer living people), except for the zombie's pervading odor. So Tracking should work normally, until Boomer turns into the undead. Then it becomes Stalk and Kill, starting with the weakest member of party, with speed and surprise!

[likwidneo]

Re: Need Help Building a Dog Follower

 

another question I have is the dogs intellect as it relates to a human intellect. Ive given Boomer an INT of 13. Now I know animals are supposed to take the Physical Limitation of "Limited Intellect" But should his inferior Intellect also reflect in his INT rating? Does an INT rating of 13 mean he is just smarter than the average dog, or does it technically make him smarter than the average person? And if so should it be lower?

[Lucius]

Re: Need Help Building a Dog Follower

 

Exactly what "INT" means is one of those issues that has always been a little fuzzy in Hero.

But I'd say the 13 INT is fine as long as you have the Physical Limit of "Canine mentality" or somesuch so it can't comprehend language (beyond recognizing commands) or think too abstractly.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary class of mind

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Need Help Building a Dog Follower

 

First, I'm not even sure that the dog needs the Tracking Skill. If you add Tracking to his Sense of Smell, does he also need to be trained to "track"? I mean, if there's no scent to follow can the dog look around at scuff marks on the ground and determine that the snow shoe tracks lead that-a-way?

And as for warning of zombies, what would tracking have to do with that? Dogs have a heightened sense of smell. Smelling an approaching zombie is just the same as hearing or seeing an approaching zombie. If you are really concerned add some +PER to just the smell/taste group on top of the general +3 PER. Also, discuss it with your GM and make sure that you're on the same page. Make sure the dog is supposed to be a "zombie early warning device" and that the build will suffice for that in this particular game.

Side note; is the dog going to be able/willing to fight? Will it fetch/retrieve or do other physical tricks? If not, if it is nothing but a zombie detector, you might think about building it as a power, perhaps a Detect with a Physical Manifestation...

[the fox]

Re: Need Help Building a Dog Follower

 

Like the dog whistle, you can just add the 'training' to Tracking; this is just 'training' the dog to follow an individual scent present on clothing, followed by their obvious, instinctive behavior while tracking. Alerting you when an unusual scent is found isn't much of a trick, the dog's 'limited mentality' usually knows to alert others when something is found.

 

As for detecting zombies, the dog doesn't need Tracking- this is presumed under "heightened sense of smell". 5th edition gives a +2 modifier for a 'smelly person', +4 modifier for a 'very smelly person' (check out the GM's screen in another current thread for additional sense modifiers, smell). These apply to both Tracking and heightened sense of smell, as applicable.

 

The dog doesn't need the tracking skill necessarily to track zombies, but let's not muddle the issue with obvious tracks; if it's obvious, it's obvious.

Tracking reflects all dog's natural ability and behavior when tracking their prey. Tracking covers the tracking behavior, and allows a trail to be followed by scent, where it isn't otherwise obvious.

As a GM, I'm just assuming you'd want your dog to be an ad-hoc zombie detector, that it might perceive something not obvious to sight.

 

As for combat, that depends on the stats for the dog, how many points it gets.

Don't forget to add some resistance to the zombie plague, if you want him to have this ability.

Don't be surprised when he attacks by surprise because he/you didn't buy this ability, because it'll be assumed he doesn't; this can be as simple as "zombie plague only affects humans" but this isn't the case in the Apocalypse universe, remember the zombie dogs? No reason for them to be all skinned or bloody, except to look fierce and wicked! (low BODY left? heighten PRE?)

Also, HTH KA, Reduced Penetration; Grabbing with the mouth possibly only disabling one limb; Extra Running.

Breakfall isn't needed, the dog's smaller size may presume some 'acrobatic ability', that is just to say it can fight in smaller quarters, and finds it easier to surprise, attack to the rear, etc. His rate of falling is slightly reduced due to his smaller size and the square-cube law; only cats might require Breakfall, in addition to or instead of this 4"/phase falling rate. On the other hand, I did see a lot of "breakfall rolls" on the GM's screen...

 

Biting a zombie can be tricky. This is comparable to zombie blood backlash to the mouth or eyes.

Usually such cases are ignored, because actual wounds and dying are much faster at transforming into a zombie, making this moot or 'unnecessary bookkeeping'.

For story-telling purposes, the dogs behavior can become more feral, ignoring commands, attacking without command, etc.

 

With an INT of 13, why yes, Boomer is smarter than your typical person, in combat.

Tactically, this dog's got it going on, protecting and warning others, instead of just running off!

[likwidneo]

Re: Need Help Building a Dog Follower

 

The dog is a fully trained K-9 unit. He is a competent attack dog and search dog, as well as his tracking abilities. I gave him a 1D6 HKA and 23 STR. He also has Martial Maneuver Joint Lock to symbolize his biting and holding onto one limb and takeing his opponent down. Two things that are both done by Joint Lock. The maneuver is just perfect for a dog. I am debating giving him Martial Disarm or Takeaway as well but I'm not sure yet. My main concern there is realistically speaking even if he's immune to the disease, he's still a carrier for it, so anyone he attacks, even with his non-lethal Joint Lock, could become infected, hence the need for the disarm. He's also a large half Wolf/Husky so things like reduced penetration and acrobatics, breakfall, and combat positioning don't really apply.

 

I already gave him Life Support: Immune to Viral Infections with a -1/4 limitation to mean only immune to the Z-plague. I also gave him Anonymity as well to justify the fact that zombies have no interest in him, unless he attacks. I gave him his own Scavenging: Concealment skill. And Powered +10 PRE Only for Presence Attacks and Incantations, to symbolize aggressive scary barking as an intimidation tactic. He's got a host of other stuff, but that's pretty much the highlights. I'm primarily more concerned with the technical aspects of building and using a pet follower. I'm really thinking of picking up a copy of the Bestiary when I have some extra $. This is going to be important stuff in future campaigns. None of my group have ever tried to make a pet follower.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Need Help Building a Dog Follower

 

23 STR?!? Your dog can lift over 1,300 lbs.?! And adding that STR to his 1d6 HKA the dog can do 2d6 in one bite (in 5E, even more in 6E)! That's as much as an average handgun. He's stronger than Olympic weight lifters and can, with a good damage roll, literally bite someone's arm off. Unless your PC has virtually no fighting skills and is completely dependent on the dog in combat you probably want to scale him back a bit. How much were you planning on spending on this pet? What's the point level of this game?

 

For reference, a "Large Dog" in 5E has -5 STR with a 1/2d6 bite, a "Guard Dog" 0 STR and a 1d6 bite (with no STR to add to it). All dogs have: "Canine Senses: +3 PER with All Sense Groups, Canine Nose: Tracking with Normal Smell, Canine Ears: Ultrasonic Perception (Hearing Group) (Hearing Group), and Lightsleep".

[likwidneo]

Re: Need Help Building a Dog Follower

 

The campaign is 50/50 Heroic. And I must correct myself. I gave the Dog 18 STR. My bad. Which translates into, about 700 lbs? I'm talking about the same breed of dog used to drag a sled through the snow. If a human can deliver 6-700 lbs. of force per square inch in a single punch, I think it's safe to say a large dog can bite for more. I don't think it makes absolutely any sense that an average PC human get's +2 on a STR vs STR roll against a guard dog. If anything it should be the other way around. And as for the dogs combat effectiveness, issuing it commands is a half phase action. So either I let my GM decide the dog's actions in battles, or my character can only use one half-phase attack or move on that turn. In other words, if I had that same handgun, I could either fire it twice in one turn, or fire it once, and then issue my dog a command. Heck, for the price of the follower itself, a couple of combat maneuvers and/or auto fire skills could get the same effect.

[the fox]

Re: Need Help Building a Dog Follower

 

If animals are ten times stronger than humans, isn't that a +15 (x8 mass) or +18 (x12 mass, by how I figure it)?

Simply subtract 5 pts. for his 1/2 weight and 'boom', you've got Boomer's STR 20 or 23!

But -5 or 0 STR sounds rather low; besides totally ignoring animals' super-strength, it's may be presuming a 'guard' dog only weighs up to 25 kg./55 lbs. and a 'large' dog only weighs up to 12.5 kg./27.5 lbs., or loses 5 STR points, some other way !!! Boomer weighs over 55#, putting him in the next weight category, a whole 5 STR; unless of course you want to put him in the same weight category as humans and make him at least 50 kg./ 110 lbs., that would be a very large or very fat dog!

Now, as for 'super-strength for animals', don't forget the Pushing of STR! Up to +10 STR. This may be based on the real-life adrenaline surge that triples a man's strength; here it can quadruple the load, and is under conscious control. Animals would use this as soon as they fall into a tussle, every time at least once (and surprisingly judiciously , giving them the appearance of super-strength. But can't humans gain +10 STR from fitness and training? Can a dog gain that much from fitness and training? And aren't most animals getting plenty of exercise, working out constantly? Some dogs are very big or muscular, like Olympic weightlifters or bodybuilders! +10 STR; grand total: 15 STR, plus 10 Pushing = 25! STR.

i. e. 'no 'free' adrenaline power for animals, just fitness comparable to athletic, 880 lb. lifting humans. So am I saying +10 STR is a fair, standard amount for all these 'athletic' animals?

No, but it might be a good amount for Boomer, and all he really needs for a 1d6+1d6 KA and other Maneuvers which add STR or damage and use Pushing more often.

[dmjalund]

Re: Need Help Building a Dog Follower

 

added DC with Martial Maneuvers?

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Need Help Building a Dog Follower

 

The campaign is 50/50 Heroic. And I must correct myself. I gave the Dog 18 STR. My bad. Which translates into' date=' about 700 lbs? I'm talking about the same breed of dog used to drag a sled through the snow. If a human can deliver 6-700 lbs. of force per square inch in a single punch, I think it's safe to say a large dog can bite for more. I don't think it makes absolutely any sense that an average PC human get's +2 on a STR vs STR roll against a guard dog. If anything it should be the other way around. And as for the dogs combat effectiveness, issuing it commands is a half phase action. So either I let my GM decide the dog's actions in battles, or my character can only use one half-phase attack or move on that turn. In other words, if I had that same handgun, I could either fire it twice in one turn, or fire it once, and then issue my dog a command. Heck, for the price of the follower itself, a couple of combat maneuvers and/or auto fire skills could get the same effect.[/quote']

Talking generally doesn't take a half action. Maybe that's different when issuing commands? If so, you could point me to where you get that. And you can't shoot the same gun twice in one turn, that's just wrong. An attack action ends your turn, even if it's only a half-phase action and you haven't done anything else yet. While there are Multipower Attacks (and whatever the equivalent in 6E is) I don't believe they would allow you to use the same Focus based Charge burning Power twice in one turn...

 

EDIT: With a follower not only do you get more attacks per turn, but you get an additional target for your opponents and whatever non-combat skills (such as tracking and zombie alerts in your case) that the follower possesses. That's hardly the same as "a couple of combat maneuvers and/or auto fire skills" in terms of effectiveness.

[likwidneo]

Re: Need Help Building a Dog Follower

 

5ER p.42

Typically, making a Skill Roll constitutes a

Half Phase Action, but this can vary depending on

the Skill used, the task attempted, and the circumstances.

Sometimes making a Skill Roll requires

hours of eff ort... or no time at all.

 

My buddies copy of Ultimate Skill under Animal Handler also said that the use of commands under Animal Handling is a half phase action. While it also noted that typically Follower Pets dont need to be controlled with Animal Handling, but some other method, ultimately a skill is a skill. Making a dog understand you is not the same as making a person understand you, even if you use the exact same words, no matter how intelligent the dog is.

 

I'm paying 10 points for the follower, and another 5 in supporting skills and powers, plus a plethora of 0point Disadvantages between the 2 characters, quite a few of them pertaining specifically to their relationship with each other. For those 15 points I'm pretty sure I can get my character on par in skill and combat without the dog vs with the dog, and not have to deal with the disadvantages in the process.

[薔薇語]

Re: Need Help Building a Dog Follower

 

Need Help building a Dog Follower?

 

First, find your nearest dog cemetery. Second, find your nearest Indian Burial ground. Third, buy a surgical kit. Finally, find a Voodoo Doctor and bury the dog. .

 

La Rose.

[Vondy]

Re: Need Help Building a Dog Follower

 

You need Sparky the Wonder Dog from Normals Unbound (4th Edition)!

 

4 Points in English (can't speak) and Martial Arts!

[dmjalund]

Re: Need Help Building a Dog Follower

 

dog follower? I am imagining some poor guy with a pooper scooper

[Susano]

Re: Need Help Building a Dog Follower

 

Dunno if this will help, but...

 

http://surbrook.devermore.net/adaptationscreatures/creatures.html#RPG

 

I have assorted dog and wolf-like animals listed in this section of my website.