RexMundi Posted January 5, 2010 Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 Since 6e finally broke free of the constraints of customs and the Red Chinese Menace to getting my Game Fix on time, I did what I normally do when a new edition breaks, and made a new campaign setting. This setting is comprehensive, and encompasses all the various genre as well, so when the mood fits, I can switch Games, without really having to switch games. One of the central themes though, is Time Travel (in various ways and means, from various directions and Intents). So, to open the debate floor to all you Smart folks in the Star Hero thread, I offer this (and will of course take advantage of the use of others prodigious imaginations and brain power, to refine my own concepts and game use). What is your favorite example of Time Travel (and it's theories), in any media. What is your Least? And finally, What about it, could potentially wreck a game and or mutate said game into something of less then desirable continuity? Real science has more then a firm place in Science Fiction as well, so anything goes. ~Rex....opens the debate can of worms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sinanju Posted January 5, 2010 Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 Re: Time Travel in Sci Fi and Games....The Good, The Bad, and the Oh so Ugly... My favorite example of time travel is the Netherworld of the game Feng Shui. The Netherworld (a weird underworld environment) can be accessed via various gateways into the world as we know it. Some of these gateways open into other times and places. HOWEVER, time passes at the same rate in all the various periods which are accessible via the Netherworld. That is, if you leave our world right now, and step through a portal into China in 1850 and stay for 24 hours, when you come back to our world, the same amount of time will have passed. It will be a day later than when you left. This conveniently prevents a lot of the time travel shenanigans that give gamemasters (and writers) headaches. Because you can only go to the widely separated time periods to which portals exist (and as GM, you get to decide what those are), there's no going back to yesterday to fix our big screw-up. You can't GET to yesterday, only to (for instance) 1850 China and New York in 2200 AD. It also means that if your buddy Bobby Redshirt goes to China in 1850 with you and gets killed there, you can't use time travel to undo it. Time is still moving forward in all the various eras, and at the same rate. It's remotely possible that you could try to use "delay mail" (Doc Brown sending Marty McFly a telegram, to be delivered a century later is an example of this) to leave a message and TRY to change things. But it's extremely unlikely to work. As time travel gags go, it's pretty bulletproof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexMundi Posted January 5, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 Re: Time Travel in Sci Fi and Games....The Good, The Bad, and the Oh so Ugly... Yeah I played a lot of Feng Shui when it first came out. The Time Portal stuff is relatively trouble free, but it clashes with a lot of Sci-Fi and Science applications by it's static nature (though, it was interestingly played out in the movie Timeline (though that's not a good movie by most standards, it had good parts). So it's usable, but very very static. If it's static, it's not really Usable then for anything other then going to That one point. Could things be mucked up then, Possibly, but then the static portals seem to fight with a lot of the Time travel theories in general. Still, as a plot hook in Feng Shui, they work very well, and help tie in the various aspects of the game and it's differing Time Lines and Netherworld aspects, Not to mention, the Super Natural and Super Science angles as well. Not sure if I would rate it a GOOD though, because it's more like a Fixed Plot device rather then something you can do (if that makes sense, if not I'll try and explain it later), It's not a Bad though, but it does contain some elements of good (easy, not really breakable, fairly player proof) and some ugly (static, fixed plot effect, not really usable by players beyonf "being somewhen else". Food for thought though especially if combined with other types and means of time travel. ~Rex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austenandrews Posted January 5, 2010 Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 Re: Time Travel in Sci Fi and Games....The Good, The Bad, and the Oh so Ugly... I've done it the way sinanju described, which in practice is less like time travel than gates to different "worlds." My favorite time travel stories deal mostly with information passed through time, like Hogan's Thrice Upon a Time or the Doctor Who episode "Blink." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyrath Posted January 5, 2010 Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 Re: Time Travel in Sci Fi and Games....The Good, The Bad, and the Oh so Ugly... Not to give free publicity or anything, but the world book GURPS: Time Travel by That Other Company is an exhaustive survey of various species of SF novel type time travel methods and their application to RPGs. As an example of a novel that had a nifty time travel feel (but which would be difficult for a game master to control) is Keith Laumer's classic DINOSAUR BEACH. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexMundi Posted January 5, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 Re: Time Travel in Sci Fi and Games....The Good, The Bad, and the Oh so Ugly... Nice pick. Not many folks will bring up Hogan. Thrice Upon a Time is a great time as well and offers a unique use for Time Travel. Information is more dangerous per say, then actual people. James Blish's short Story "Beep" also has some information through time issues as well. Dr. Who's time travel stuff I've always had logged int the "Danger Will Robinson!" file, since it's not really explained, and only dealt with when needed, or when there is conflict in the greater meta plot for it (Like the Torchwood stuff). Still, Dr. Who offers a view of Time (and space) travel that is very unique in the way it Treats Time, as something different then most Time Travel stuff does, more....whimsical I suppose? Still, the Paradox issues alone....*shudder* ~Rex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexMundi Posted January 5, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 Re: Time Travel in Sci Fi and Games....The Good, The Bad, and the Oh so Ugly... Not to give free publicity or anything, but the world book GURPS: Time Travel by That Other Company is an exhaustive survey of various species of SF novel type time travel methods and their application to RPGs. As an example of a novel that had a nifty time travel feel (but which would be difficult for a game master to control) is Keith Laumer's classic DINOSAUR BEACH. True, there's plenty of supplements out there but those aren't the same as a back and forth, between thinking people. Especially people like you see here in the Star Hero thread, that put some very serious thought into the subjects, and can go back and forth at them, with analytical professionalism, and very little relativistic rock throwing. Also with the people discussing I gain an insight into actual playability from different perspectives, which I find to be a very useful tool in damage control and or other game factors should a mechanic get out of hand. ~Rex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austenandrews Posted January 5, 2010 Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 Re: Time Travel in Sci Fi and Games....The Good, The Bad, and the Oh so Ugly... Incidentally, this old thread about precognition might have applications in some time travel setups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexMundi Posted January 5, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 Re: Time Travel in Sci Fi and Games....The Good, The Bad, and the Oh so Ugly... Good thread. Precog stuff is always handy for Time Travel issues. Thanks much. ~Rex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csyphrett Posted January 5, 2010 Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 Re: Time Travel in Sci Fi and Games....The Good, The Bad, and the Oh so Ugly... Simon Hawke's Time Wars had alternating timelines at war, The Time Tunnel had adventurers who were shifted back and forth by missions control, Voyagers had people going back and making sure that time went right as the books said while Quantum Leap had Sam Becket possessing people who changed time away from the time line already lived. Only Time Wars had some kind of condition where changing history was used as a weapon. CES Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexMundi Posted January 5, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 Re: Time Travel in Sci Fi and Games....The Good, The Bad, and the Oh so Ugly... All those are excellent examples as well. Quantum Leaps method of course took care of a lot of the mechanical issues, YET, left open a lot of holes and explanations desiring as well. Time Tunnel was the classic (heh) and actually used the History is Immutable, should you muck with it, the method may change but the results do not. Voyagers (As well as Time Patrol, and Time Cop, etc etc) had that interesting twist of History must be protected, Yet, is a prime example of how it could be mucked up to begin with. Some interesting views, but should you all include such in a campaign, How, would you monkey wrench it? ~Rex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyrath Posted January 5, 2010 Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 Re: Time Travel in Sci Fi and Games....The Good, The Bad, and the Oh so Ugly... There was an ancient computer game called The Journeyman Project (1993) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Journeyman_Project The Temporal Protective Agency is tasked with preventing malicious time travelers from altering history. The problem is how does one detect such changes, especially since you are changed as well? They exploit the fact that any history alteration can only alter things that occur after the alteration. If somebody goes back in time and assassinates Hitler, this will change history between "now" and the 1940's, but it will not alter anything prior to the 1940's. So the TPA maintains a record of all recorded history to date on a computer disk, and stores the disk in one million BC. Every "day" somebody from the TPA travels back with a new disk, which is compared to the old disk. Any malicious history alteration will change the recorded history on the new disk, but not the disk in one million BC. Thus time alterations can be detected, and agents will be dispatched to set things back the way they were. Of course things get tricky if a malicious traveler does something to prevent the TPA from ever existing in the first place... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexMundi Posted January 5, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 Re: Time Travel in Sci Fi and Games....The Good, The Bad, and the Oh so Ugly... Now THAT'S what I'm getting at. Granted, there are a lot of ways to do it, and one would have to decide WHICH of the time travel theories one decides to run with, There's definite elements of all three sides of the Good the Bad and the Ugly triangle there. ~Rex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austenandrews Posted January 5, 2010 Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 Re: Time Travel in Sci Fi and Games....The Good, The Bad, and the Oh so Ugly... Thus time alterations can be detected' date=' and agents will be dispatched to set things back the way they were.[/quote'] That's a fun setup. As I see it, from the perspective of the modern day/near future, there are two facets of time travel: past and future. Time travel to the past means you're mucking around in a history that exists in the real world. You get scenarios where the dinosaurs are saved from extinction or Hitler is kidnapped and raised by Ma and Pa Kent or whatever. This results in alternate histories and alternate present-days. You also get into paradoxes like preventing time travel from being invented. As I see it, time travel to the past would make for a high-maintenance campaign, wherein the GM would be constantly reinventing history. Players will know lots about history already, so making rapid, plausible chances would be a strain. Also, as mentioned by Nyrath, changing the past potentially eliminates the PCs' "home base" which could be problematic from the perspective of campaign consistency. Time traveling around in the future would be much simpler. The future timeline is entirely invented by the GM, so he has much more freedom in changing it around. As an example of this scenario, time machines are invented but you can only travel to other time machines. That way the earliest you could go is the very first one. You can hop around all you want within that time frame, though. At worst, this campaign would only be reset to its beginning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexMundi Posted January 5, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 Re: Time Travel in Sci Fi and Games....The Good, The Bad, and the Oh so Ugly... Time Travel is fun if handled correctly. It's avoided like the black plague by Marvel for the most part (ONLY DOOM is QUALIFIED for TIME TRAVEL...!!!!), and always results in *poof* Earth 23456 Timeline....... Now DC, has embraced Time Travel with open arms. Rip Hunter, Barry Allen, Booster Gold, Various Incarnations of the Legion, etc etc etc ......And they welcome the Paradox as well, so it CAN generate Serious story and interest. I can see full time travel to the past as being both a Chore, AND a time when you can sit back and watch the players work. Provided of course, you are using a Time Travel set up that allows one to change things. If that's so then it's a lot of work to reign in just how much, and what. ~Rex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmjalund Posted January 5, 2010 Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 Re: Time Travel in Sci Fi and Games....The Good, The Bad, and the Oh so Ugly... Don't forget Waverider Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexMundi Posted January 5, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 Re: Time Travel in Sci Fi and Games....The Good, The Bad, and the Oh so Ugly... Heh, I tried to but he's coming back according to Rip Hunter. ~Rex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyrath Posted January 5, 2010 Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 Re: Time Travel in Sci Fi and Games....The Good, The Bad, and the Oh so Ugly... Also' date=' as mentioned by Nyrath, changing the past potentially eliminates the PCs' "home base" which could be problematic from the perspective of campaign consistency.[/quote'] Yes, that was the punch-line for Laumer's DINOSAUR BEACH. As it turns out, in that novel, our hero is a member of a time protection agency that only existed because of some time meddling. In order to heal time, the agency has to erase its own existence. Which as it turns out, they are reluctant to do. Also in the novel, the agency has to cope with three or four other agencies that exist in increasingly distant future eras, who are constantly sending agents back in (their) time to meddle with the hero's agency in the "present". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexMundi Posted January 5, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 Re: Time Travel in Sci Fi and Games....The Good, The Bad, and the Oh so Ugly... Right, which makes it PERFECT, for PC's. It also keeps the pot of water boiling so to speak, and opens doors to some interesting possibilities. Now, what if you added in an element, like what you see in David Gerrolds _The Man who Folded Himself_ ? Now it's more Localized, individual Time Travel, with some rather odd potentials in interactions as well. ~Rex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted January 5, 2010 Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 Re: Time Travel in Sci Fi and Games....The Good, The Bad, and the Oh so Ugly... There's an obscure time travel game called Continuum that has (IMO) an absolutely awesome and highly playable take on time travel; so much so that I wouldn't want to play time travel any other way. The tagline for the game is: "If you could learn to span time at will... what form of civilization would you be entering?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexMundi Posted January 5, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 Re: Time Travel in Sci Fi and Games....The Good, The Bad, and the Oh so Ugly... Really I wanted to take a look at that Game and haven't been able to find it ANYWHERE. What do you think of it? Especially in relation to this topic since I have no issues with swiping and assimilating alien culture, much like any good borg will do if presented the opportunity. ~Rex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austenandrews Posted January 5, 2010 Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 Re: Time Travel in Sci Fi and Games....The Good, The Bad, and the Oh so Ugly... Another angle to consider is the various methods of placing characters in different times. You've got the standard "dial in a year" time machines. You've got "time gates" of all kinds - man-made wormhole machines, natural wormholes in space, transient "cracks" like in Time Bandits, etc. For future-only travel, you've got suspended animation and relativistic time dilation. You've also got non-material, mental/information-only time travel, like Quantum Leaping back into other organisms, or transmitting a signal through time that assembles a robot/clone which can receive a mind from elsewhen. You've also got immortality as a way to have an NPC span multiple eras - imagine a villain who encounters the PCs throughout his thousand-year lifetime, piecing together the nonlinear PC timeline as he goes. Reincarnation would work similarly. You could have a machine mind that spans eras, or a hive mind with a long racial memory. I think a time-hopping campaign that used all of them at different times would be fascinating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austenandrews Posted January 5, 2010 Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 Re: Time Travel in Sci Fi and Games....The Good, The Bad, and the Oh so Ugly... There's an obscure time travel game called Continuum that has (IMO) an absolutely awesome and highly playable take on time travel; so much so that I wouldn't want to play time travel any other way. The tagline for the game is: "If you could learn to span time at will... what form of civilization would you be entering?" That's very cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyrath Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 Re: Time Travel in Sci Fi and Games....The Good, The Bad, and the Oh so Ugly... You have me interested, I'm going to have to check out Continuum. Other inspirational time travel novels THE FIRES OF PARATIME (Timegods' World ) by LE Modesitt, Jr. The inhabitants of Quest are organic time travelers. As you read the novel you realize that Norse mythology is based on the Questians. And the strongest of all is Loki. This novel grabs your interest at the start, but near the end you can't put the book down! THE CORRIDORS OF TIME by Poul Anderson. Time war! http://www.sfreviews.net/corridors.html THE BIG TIME by Fritz Leiber http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Big_Time ALL OF AN INSTANT by Richard Garfinkle. Review here: http://www.sfsite.com/10b/all67.htm and don't forget DINOSAUR BEACH by Keith Laumer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmadanNaBriona Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 Re: Time Travel in Sci Fi and Games....The Good, The Bad, and the Oh so Ugly... You have me interested' date=' I'm going to have to check out C[b']o[/b]ntinuum. Other inspirational time travel novels THE FIRES OF PARATIME (Timegods' World ) by LE Modesitt, Jr. The inhabitants of Quest are organic time travelers. As you read the novel you realize that Norse mythology is based on the Questians. And the strongest of all is Loki. This novel grabs your interest at the start, but near the end you can't put the book down! THE CORRIDORS OF TIME by Poul Anderson. Time war! http://www.sfreviews.net/corridors.html THE BIG TIME by Fritz Leiber http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Big_Time ALL OF AN INSTANT by Richard Garfinkle. Review here: http://www.sfsite.com/10b/all67.htm and don't forget DINOSAUR BEACH by Keith Laumer I was going to mention several of these, having recently gone through a time-travel sub-genre binge. I've been fond of the Paratime books for forever, and incorporated a Temporal Guard into my Champions campaign strongly inspired by Modesitt. Fritz Leiber was another of my early loves... I got directed to the Fafhrd & The Grey Mouser books from the D&D bibliography, stumbled across a Changewar story and was hooked. Another good gamable treatment from fiction is Robert Lynn Asprin's Time Scout series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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