csyphrett Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 Re: Time Travel in Sci Fi and Games....The Good, The Bad, and the Oh so Ugly... All those are excellent examples as well. Quantum Leaps method of course took care of a lot of the mechanical issues, YET, left open a lot of holes and explanations desiring as well. Time Tunnel was the classic (heh) and actually used the History is Immutable, should you muck with it, the method may change but the results do not. Voyagers (As well as Time Patrol, and Time Cop, etc etc) had that interesting twist of History must be protected, Yet, is a prime example of how it could be mucked up to begin with. Some interesting views, but should you all include such in a campaign, How, would you monkey wrench it? ~Rex I have used the Time Cop and Back to the Future method where players could go back and change things and rewrite history. Quantum Leap and Time Cop and Back to the Future all include examples of changing history to better the present though Time Cop was the only one where they had an agency trying to prevent changes because they didn't know how they would affect the present, and because people were actively trying to use the past to commit crimes. Voyagers was about making sure the timeline went right which means the whole show was about changing the past while trying to protect it. The Time Tunnel has the least freedom of movement where everything happens no matter what the players do. The only show/time thing I have seen where changes were never shown is Time Trax, where the hero is chasing fugitives to the past to send them to his present, but you never see how the world of his present is changing to reflect the fugitives' and the hero's actions. I believe that at one point he met his grandmother but I am not sure. CES Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmjalund Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 Re: Time Travel in Sci Fi and Games....The Good, The Bad, and the Oh so Ugly... I think Asimov's 'End of Eternity' is worth a mention Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyrath Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 Re: Time Travel in Sci Fi and Games....The Good, The Bad, and the Oh so Ugly... Yes, END OF ETERNITY is worth a mention, but what a dull story. DINOSAUR BEACH for me is the best at capturing the flavor of a good time travel campaign THE CORRIDORS OF TIME is an interesting time war. The Rangers are working towards a male-dominated rational mechanistic future, while the Wardens are working towards a female-dominated intuitive organic future. As you look through historical conflicts dating back to the dawn of time, you can see which sides were backed by Ranger time agents and which were backed by Warden time agents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexMundi Posted January 6, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 Re: Time Travel in Sci Fi and Games....The Good, The Bad, and the Oh so Ugly... In addition to Time Cop (which also spawned a TV Show), and Time Trax (which is interesting from the point that it's a Fixed point of Travel), you have Seven Days as well, which was another unique point of view. Folks brought up Fires of Paratime which is one of my favorite books and the one that really got me hooked into the evil clutches of Sci Fi book Club forever (heh), and of course all the other material including my beloved Poul Anderson books. Fritz Leiber's approach was a good time. One of the things I have done for my current 6e campaign, is go heavily into the time travel background material, since, time travel can spark a lot of things. It Does actually, combine every element I can think of. My only bad point so far is I let my biggest Power Gamer Ultra Plumber, get his hands on my copy of Roger Zelazny's Creatures of Light and Darkness. Combine that with 6e Duplication and attendant Advantages, and poof temporal fugue, a more direct and combative form of Time Travel. Pulling all of these various types of time travel together has made for a very interesting campaign setting that allows me to use Every Genre I can think of. Letting the Players influence those Genre's in one way or another, has given them an insight into just what goes into building a GOOD campaign setting, for them to play in, and now, they look for ways to Add to it, instead of ways, to get over it. I think I will hide "The Man who Folded Himself" from a few of my players though, since that opens up some odd cans of worms I don't think they could incorporate very well yet. Primarily though, all this time travel stuff (and things like the montauk project etc, MJ-12, Alien Abduction, Supernatural stuff hiding in the background, atlantean super science etc) is what leads to the development of Super Humans (Even though my Super Humans are more along the lines of, Hugo Danner, Tom Strong, Masked Men of Vengeance, etc), even though the players at the moment, are a bunch of 275 Point Heroic, that could change, since the developmental angles are just starting to come into play (it's only a once or maybe twice a month game). They're just starting to get whispers so to speak.... Now, WHERE, and when those whispers come from are another thing altogether. It's quite possible, the entire origin of the Super Powered folks could be owed to something along the lines of "The 4400" series. I thought at first, tying in all the elements of Time Travel through sci fi and even fantasy (and certainly pulp), and meshing it in with Heroic Adventure (along the lines of Richard Marcinko meets Sam and Dean Winchester, teaching young Tony Stark how to stake vampires with lost atlantean technology) would be difficult, but doing so, sort of builds in a lot of automatic GM retcon handwavium ability, if something breaks or bogs down, AND, no one can really gripe about it, because such a thing (Like the Protective Agency that only exists because someone mucked with the time stream, and while duty bound to fix it, doing so would erase them so they avoid doing it angle) is actually possible, and you can even Support, Opposing views of Time Travel at the same time. It's turning out to be, very easy. And that's before factoring in the player development of the various genre angles, that they then get to affect over the course of game play in the primary campaign arc. Toss in, the ease at which 6e is learned, by folks coming over to it from all over the gaming field (converting even die hard M&M folks as well at this table), and the fluidity of the new mechanics and tool kitting, it's shaping up to be an interesting build, that is practically, building itself. So, the MORE, brainpower I get looking at the topic subject, the easier it is for me to fine tune something that is roughly the game equivalent of the Saturn V. It's either going to the Moon, or exploding and taking southern Florida with it. ~Rex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyrath Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 Re: Time Travel in Sci Fi and Games....The Good, The Bad, and the Oh so Ugly... Well, in many ways, time travel can become the ultimate weapon. In Doctor Who, hostile alien races have to be very careful if they intend to try to conquer Gallifrey (planet of the Time Lords). If you fail, suddenly you and your entire home planet never existed... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexMundi Posted January 6, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 Re: Time Travel in Sci Fi and Games....The Good, The Bad, and the Oh so Ugly... Yeah but look at the Results of the Great Time War. Now, you have ONE Time Lord. Anywhere, and Anywhen. If you look at that in terms of Time Travel that had to be a hell of a Fight because Dr. Who already established you could have multiple incarnations running around at the same Point in time. Still, they seem to have gotten the short end of the stick in that fight because the Daleks were still kicking. Indeed though, Temporal weapons I would think would be high on the list, and in fact, (Take Strontium Dog from Rebellion/2000AD for example with the Time Bombs and Time Drogues), would most likely be developed BEFORE Temporal Travel. ~Rex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattingly Posted January 7, 2010 Report Share Posted January 7, 2010 Re: Time Travel in Sci Fi and Games....The Good, The Bad, and the Oh so Ugly... The Man Who Folded Himself is indeed good. I also recommend John Brunner's Times Without Number. In that story, time travel is farily easy, and discovered by most life forms in their bronze age. The story follows the time patrol (or some such name) of the Spanish Empire, who took the place of the British in colonizing America (the Mohawk nation). It's a great alternate history story. At the end, the protagonist fails to stop a faction from tampering with the past, and he gets sent to "our" New York. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexMundi Posted January 7, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2010 Re: Time Travel in Sci Fi and Games....The Good, The Bad, and the Oh so Ugly... Our New York.....heh well I suppose it could have been worse, it could have been Our Detroit. I'm going to have to go look for that book as I do not believe I have read it. The Idea of "older" culture doing the time travel thing (Past the point of let's say, Jules Verne, H.G. Wells, League of Extraordinary Gentleman stuff and or some of the Super Science/Magic of some of the other genre arcs) is something I have not added to the mix yet. Thanks for the tip. ~Rex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadborder Posted January 7, 2010 Report Share Posted January 7, 2010 Re: Time Travel in Sci Fi and Games....The Good, The Bad, and the Oh so Ugly... The Thursday Next series has well-applied time travel, played mainly for comedy. There's an active plot to change hisitry and there's the ChronoGuard who try to stop the foresaid. Then there's people getting Eradicated (ie, removed from hsitory) which has lead to Eradication support groups full of people who have no idea while they're there. And there's also the growing awareness that Time Travel is only possible becuse a Time Traveller provided the technology - and invented the Banana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmjalund Posted January 8, 2010 Report Share Posted January 8, 2010 Re: Time Travel in Sci Fi and Games....The Good, The Bad, and the Oh so Ugly... There also seems to be an active plot to change the spelling of the word 'history' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyrath Posted January 8, 2010 Report Share Posted January 8, 2010 Re: Time Travel in Sci Fi and Games....The Good, The Bad, and the Oh so Ugly... And there's also the growing awareness that Time Travel is only possible becuse a Time Traveller provided the technology - and invented the Banana Great paradox. Like in the old movie "Somewhere In Time." Consider, when was the pocket watch constructed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexMundi Posted January 8, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2010 Re: Time Travel in Sci Fi and Games....The Good, The Bad, and the Oh so Ugly... Well you can't have GOOD time travel story without paradox right? That's where all the fun stuff happens. ~Rex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted January 11, 2010 Report Share Posted January 11, 2010 Re: Time Travel in Sci Fi and Games....The Good, The Bad, and the Oh so Ugly... My favorite time travel theory is the one that combines the idea of time travel with the "many worlds" theory. Basically, the instant you travel to becomes a "crossroads" instant and creates at least two parallel worlds - the one where you arrived, and the one where you didn't. This means your own "home base" time line is insulated from paradox - you can't travel to your own past, you go to "someone else's" past. So go ahead and kill grandpa - then there you stand, the time traveller from a future, but it's not from a future descended from this particular instant. You'll never be born in this time line, but of course you will still be born in your own. I first came across this idea in The Female Man by Joanna Russ. But if you really want paradox, I suggest "All You Zombies" by Heinlein. The time traveler is his own father as well as his own mother, his life forming a closed loop. Read it, then ask yourself if it's really a paradox at all. Lucius Alexander The palindromedary isn't talking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Mackinder Posted January 11, 2010 Report Share Posted January 11, 2010 Re: Time Travel in Sci Fi and Games....The Good, The Bad, and the Oh so Ugly... But if you really want paradox' date=' I suggest "All You Zombies" by Heinlein. The time traveler is his own father as well as his own mother, his life forming a closed loop.[/quote'] Paradox or not, that is icky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted January 11, 2010 Report Share Posted January 11, 2010 Re: Time Travel in Sci Fi and Games....The Good, The Bad, and the Oh so Ugly... Well, it was a way for him to figure out whether or not he was good in bed... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted January 11, 2010 Report Share Posted January 11, 2010 Re: Time Travel in Sci Fi and Games....The Good, The Bad, and the Oh so Ugly... In the Casey and Andy webcomic, a modern mad scientist engages in a conflict across time with President Grover Cleveland. Lucius Alexander The palindromedary was betting on the president Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexMundi Posted January 11, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2010 Re: Time Travel in Sci Fi and Games....The Good, The Bad, and the Oh so Ugly... I'm stocked up for Time Travel books for awhile. Apparently, some folks decided to unload at Half Price Books, and it was box after box of Old Heinlein, Old Hogan, Old Anderson........all the good stuff.....Some of it even 1st Print Run paperback material. 1/2 priced offered the guy like, 20 bucks for all the boxes, the guy almost agreed, I gave him 30 for a car load of some of the greatest Science Fiction ever written. Gonna take me days to go through this stuff heh. ~Rex.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted January 11, 2010 Report Share Posted January 11, 2010 Re: Time Travel in Sci Fi and Games....The Good, The Bad, and the Oh so Ugly... In the Casey and Andy webcomic, a modern mad scientist engages in a conflict across time with President Grover Cleveland. Lucius Alexander The palindromedary was betting on the president Said conflict was actually a love triangle involving said mad scientist, said President, and Satan, the latter of whom was female. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexMundi Posted January 11, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2010 Re: Time Travel in Sci Fi and Games....The Good, The Bad, and the Oh so Ugly... That's a pretty rough triangle there.......lot of potential icky bad in that methinks. ~Rex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wcw43921 Posted January 12, 2010 Report Share Posted January 12, 2010 Re: Time Travel in Sci Fi and Games....The Good, The Bad, and the Oh so Ugly... I think one thing you need to deal wiht in any time travel adventure is the language barrier. As we all know, or should, language changes over time; those of you who read The Canterbury Tales in school will remember that it was barely recognizable as English--and that story was only about five hundred years old. And who knows how the language will change in the next five hundred years? I was thinking that Latin might be more useful in Europe from medieval times on back. As the language of first the Roman Empire and then the Catholic Church, it could be seen as a sign of education and breeding--whereas if you spoke in any other language you'd likely be taken for a loutish barbarian. Of course, if you have some sort of "universal translator" technology, or if your time travel party includes one or more telepaths capable of interpreting others' thoughts and transposing that into speech, then that isn't an issue. Otherwise, you have to figure out a way to communicate with the inhabitants of other eras. My recommendation--talk slowly and loudly. Works for tourists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmjalund Posted January 12, 2010 Report Share Posted January 12, 2010 Re: Time Travel in Sci Fi and Games....The Good, The Bad, and the Oh so Ugly... I think one thing you need to deal with in any time travel adventure is the language barrier. As we all know' date=' or should, language changes over time; those of you who read [i']The Canterbury Tales[/i] in school will remember that it was barely recognizable as English--and that story was only about five hundred years old. And who knows how the language will change in the next five hundred years? Won't be quite so bad - as our future selves will have access to Youtube clips from previous centuries - also they may have a universal translater evolved from Google Translate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyrath Posted January 12, 2010 Report Share Posted January 12, 2010 Re: Time Travel in Sci Fi and Games....The Good, The Bad, and the Oh so Ugly... I think one thing you need to deal wiht in any time travel adventure is the language barrier. As we all know' date=' or should, language changes over time; those of you who read [i']The Canterbury Tales[/i] in school will remember that it was barely recognizable as English--and that story was only about five hundred years old. And who knows how the language will change in the next five hundred years? From http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3ao.html#inventWords Another fun avenue is taking English and postulating some form of futuristic grammar or spelling reform. Here is an interesting attempt to predict how the English language will look like in the year 3000. Example: 1000 CE Old English: Wé cildra biddaþ þé, éalá láréow, þæt þú tæ'ce ús sprecan rihte, forþám ungelæ'rede wé sindon, and gewæmmodlíce we sprecaþ... 2000 CE Modern English: We children beg you, teacher, that you should teach us to speak correctly, because we are ignorant and we speak corruptly... 3000 CE Futuristic English: ZA kiad w'-exùn ya tijuh, da ya-gAr'-eduketan zA da wa-tAgan lidla, kaz 'ban iagnaran an wa-tAg kurrap... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted January 12, 2010 Report Share Posted January 12, 2010 Re: Time Travel in Sci Fi and Games....The Good, The Bad, and the Oh so Ugly... They exploit the fact that any history alteration can only alter things that occur after the alteration. When was this "disk of all human history" actually recorded? I'm betting it wasn't recoded in one million BC. So they're pretty much ignoring their own logic of things being altered after the given date. It doesn't matter when it was stored, it matters when the causal events occured to create the data in the first place. Anyhow, I quite like the time travel systems used in the BTRC game Timelords which postulates a more complicated version of Pratchett's Trousers of Time - where every event generates divergent universes. It weights the universes by the importance of the events, creating nexus points and so on. Grandfather Paradox can't occur as you only eliminate one possibility of your own existence in an infinity of alternate timelines. The only way to change time is to do it early enough, and a big enough event such that effects many, many alternate timelines. I personally like the Faction Paradox time travel - Grandfather Paradox can occur (as there is only one timeline in this version of the universe) - if it does, you get stuck in an infinite paradox loop and end up being eaten by the Spirits (or Vortex/Web of Time) as a nummy treat! The Faction gets around this with various rituals, a hunt to become a Godfather in the Faction gives a person a limited amount of subjective time in which they are immune to paradoxes - they then go and kill their female ancestors before they give birth to their descendents. If done correctly, they cut themselves off from the Web of Time but still exist - and are from that moment on immune to any kind of timeline change as they are outside of history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexMundi Posted January 12, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2010 Re: Time Travel in Sci Fi and Games....The Good, The Bad, and the Oh so Ugly... The Languages and Outside of Time approaches I've incorporated pretty heavily already. Predestination Paradox and such things are incorporated, and as many of the real science of Time Travel as I can mesh together without causing a stroke. I kind of want to avoid the Alternate Universe thing for a bit, since if it's always Poof, Alternate Universe, you don't get the "respect" and apprehension time travel should produce. Still, the real science allows for it, and it can be easily worked into other time travel set ups (Like they did, in the Terminator TV show), but it's best to save that for later. Effectively, the groups discover various types of time travel, from various points, with various results. The immune to effective Time Stream thing has a lot of potential as well for a character build. Have to sculpt that one a bit though, cultivated panic is a good thing for a game. ~Rex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyrath Posted January 12, 2010 Report Share Posted January 12, 2010 Re: Time Travel in Sci Fi and Games....The Good, The Bad, and the Oh so Ugly... When was this "disk of all human history" actually recorded? I'm betting it wasn't recoded in one million BC. So they're pretty much ignoring their own logic of things being altered after the given date. It doesn't matter when it was stored' date=' it matters when the causal events occured to create the data in the first place.[/quote'] I see your point, but it sure sounded good. It makes more sense in such novels as Richard Garfinkle's ALL OF AN INSTANT, where there is a place that is "outside" of time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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