How Much Is Too Much?

[Syberdwarf2]

[warning: spoilers]

 

Okay, herophiles. My first game in a couple of years is next week. I have my adventure, campaign ground rules, NPCs, Pcs and 'pregens' ready to go. But my villains are giving me some problems.

 

One of my upcoming villains, and potentially the 'master villain' of the campaign has a couple of powerful attacks.

the one that really concerns me is a 10d6 HKA.

 

Anyway, I understand how normal damage works. If I read the rules for Killing Damage correctly, the total rolled on the dice is the amount of BODY done. Roll 1d6-1 (min 1) and multiply by the BODY done to get the amount of STUN damage.

 

All was going well with the planning stages, until I decided to speed things up. Since my time is very limited right now, I pre-rolled all of my NPCs/Villains attacks and damage. Then I started rolling STUN multipliers of 4 and 5. The end result?

 

A typical damage of somewhere around 29-45 BODY, and between 35-165 STUN.

 

My PCs have very little in the way of attacks. The Powered Armored / Brick has lots of martial arts and his HTH is augmented by the suit as are his resistant defenses and BODY / STUN. But unless the damage from the HKA is incredibly low, one shot from 'Ginsu-man' will splatter this tin can as easily as a tomato.

 

However, a low level of damage from the HKA might let him get a shot in.

 

Methinks I should scale it back a bit.

 

What say you?

[RadeFox]

Ummm, yeah.

[Lupus]

Say me, any bad guy with a major attack that equals Dr Destroyer is gonna be dropping heroes left right and centre. I'd seriously recommend scaling that attack back. It's an instant fatality for most heroes facing that guy, never mind the stun damage. I'd recommend sticking to under 20 Damage Classes in most instances, unless you feel very confident about your own abilities as a GM. Or, y'know, you wanna kill off a few PCs.

 

Or if the villain can be taken down if they do the right stuff, before he gets a chance to use his attack more than once. There are ways that an attack like that can work for the game. But if you use it without restraint, be prepared for casualties, and make sure the players know they're in a game where casualties can and will occur. OF course, if he blows someone down to negative BODY, and pulls a presence attack, the PCs may just get wise and back off, allowing the PCs time to get their buddy some medical treatment.

 

All in all, I recommend sticking to lower-power attacks and saving the 30DC ones for guys like Destroyer. Example: in CKC, Destroyer is one of... is it three? villains who has attacks with more than 20DC. And only a handful have more than 15DC, too.

 

So... you don't have to lower the power. Just be prepared for what it's capable of doing and of the consequences. And also be prepared for players bitching about being hit by a 30DC attack.

 

(And myself, I hate the stun lotto. I use a flat STUN multiplier of x2 when running Champions.)

[Col. Orange]

Re: How Much Is Too Much?

 

Originally posted by Syberdwarf2

...the one that really concerns me is a 10d6 HKA.

 

[steaming hot coffee squirts out of nose]

[Magmarock]

...

 

You didn't mention the name of this villain with the 10d6 HKA, but I was thinking that, unless he has a Lim that forces him to use the entire strength each time, maybe the villain could "pull his punches" unless he is very angry or something (enraged maybe?).

 

Just a thought.

 

EDIT: Great idea about pre-rolling the damage for attacks... what a time saver!

[Syberdwarf2]

Re: ...

 

Originally posted by Magmarock

You didn't mention the name of this villain with the 10d6 HKA, but I was thinking that, unless he has a Lim that forces him to use the entire strength each time, maybe the villain could "pull his punches" unless he is very angry or something (enraged maybe?).

 

Just a thought.

 

EDIT: Great idea about pre-rolling the damage for attacks... what a time saver!

 

The Villain is Klansman, a homebrewed villain from my Queen City Knights campaign. Since I don't own CKC (yet), most of the villains are my own.

 

The problem didn't come to light for me until I was halfway through pre-rolling for the attack. I dunno what the heck I was thinking. Yup, I need to scale back, but to where?

(opens FREd)......

Let's see, a 10d6 KA is a DC of.........um, uh-oh.

 

jeez.

 

Maybe a 4d6? I think the original attack over shot a little bit.

 

Did I mention that the attack in question was also Penetrating?

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Re: ...

 

Originally posted by Syberdwarf2

Did I mention that the attack in question was also Penetrating?

 

*spits Mountain Dew out of Col. Orange's nose.* (Don't ask)

 

 

Holy Flaming Kiwi ... a 30 DC Attack ... yes, I would recommend scaling that back, unless it's one of those things that is either really hard to use (low activation, prohibitive END cost), or is just there for him to demonstrate how big a badass he is on inanimate objects (shredding a tank).

[Tom McCarthy]

My PC team is a bit brick-heavy. Bricks tend toward 12-18 rPD and a total of 23-26 PD. The others tend to 8-10 rPD and 15-20 PD. Hardened defences are rare to unheard of.

 

In that campaign, a 4D6 KA is a major KA. One hit is lethal to most targets, but superheroes can usually take a hit or two and fall from the second or third. Bricks can take three hits, maybe even 4. On the other hand, even the bricks fear things like demon hounds from the Bestiary. A 2D6 penetrating KA will eventually do serious damage to even a brick, and a 2.5D6 armour piercing KA is also quite scary.

 

I ran my players through Shades of Black, and every point of BODY (a little used stat in most of my adventures) became critically important to the players. The KA dice weren't huge, but penetrating and armour piercing advantages made them effective, and players had genuine fear of character death.

 

I usually set KAs so an average roll does o-2 BODY against a typical PC. Good rolls then are really noticeable, bad rolls don't do lasting BODY damage. I also don't use 1D6-1 STUN multipliers, but roll 3D6 on the Hit Location table and use that bell curve for multipliers.

 

I had the luxury of writing a little program to print up about 200 rolls a page for different attacks (a page of 10D6 normal, 9D6 normal, 8D6 normal, 4D6 KA, etc.)

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Re: ...

 

Originally posted by Syberdwarf2

Let's see, a 10d6 KA is a DC of.........um, uh-oh.

 

jeez.

 

Maybe a 4d6? I think the original attack over shot a little bit.

 

Did I mention that the attack in question was also Penetrating?

 

Yeah...this needs to be scaled back...waaaaay back.

 

As a guideline, may I suggest that you look at what your PCs defenses are? Then decide on one of these:

 

1) Some damage should get through their defenses all the time, and a LOT of damage on a good roll. In this case, take the average resistant defense of your PCs, divide by 3, and +1 or +2, and you've got the number of dice of KA you need. Example: average PC defense is 10 rPD. You need (10/3 = 3.33d6 +1d6 = 4d6) KA on average to get some Body through all the time.

 

2) On average probably no Body damage, but a good deal of Stun gets through. On a good roll, some Body gets through. In this case, take the average resistant defense of your PCs, divide by 3, and -1 or -2, and you've got the number of dice of KA you need. Example: average PC defense is 10 rPD. You need (10/3 = 3.33d6 = 3d6(+1) -1d6 = 2d6+1, tweaked to 2d6+2 KA on average to get Stun through all the time but Body only on an above-average roll.

 

3) Body getting through should be a *rare* event, but some stun getting through is common. In this case, take the average resistant defense of your PCs, divide by 5, and you've got the number of dice of KA you need. Example: average PC defense is 10 rPD. You need (10/5 = 2d6) KA on average to get Stun through all the time but some Body on a good roll.

 

A couple of other important things to keep in mind here:

 

a) Since the attack you describe is a HAND Killing Attack, don't forget that the villain's STR adds to the damage (+5 STR adds +1 to the dice roll total, or +15 STR adds +1d6 to the dice roll). Don't forget to include that in your calculations!

 

You mention the attack is Penetrating. Unless the PCs have Hardened defenses, they're going to take a MINIMUM of 1 Body for EACH DIE in the attack. On a 4d6 attack (your new guesstimate) that means each PC will take a MINIMUM of 4 Body from each successful attack! How much Body do these people have, anyway? The attack being Penetrating completely changes things, including my examples given above.

 

c) If one PC had defenses much higher than the others, he/she may skew the average mentioned above. Take that into account.

 

d) How hard/easy is it for the villain to hit the PCs? You've got to consider how often he's likely to hit someone when you are deciding how balanced a challenge the villain is.

 

e) You haven't told us anything about the villain's defenses, but you did remark that the PCs "don't have much in the way of attacks." Is it even possible for them to take this guy down, realistically?

 

As you can see, there's a lot to consider, and we don't have all your information. A few more details (villain defenses, OCV & DCV, combat levels, ditto for PCs) would make it easier for us to render helpful opinions instead of guesses.

[Hugh Neilson]

Hmmm...no votes for the 10d6 penetrating HKA - imagine that!

 

Seriously, if you're playing 1,000 point characters it may fly.

 

That's a 45 DC attack - would you allow a 45d6 energy blast? Looked at another way, let's assume your PC max is 15DC. Every 5 points is twice as powerful, so this is just over 1 billion times as much force (in gamespeak) as a 15d6 attack.

 

And penetrating KA's are frightening to begin with. This attack will strip off 10 BOD per hit on average, unless the opponent has more than 25 rDef AND they are hardened.

 

How much to scale it back depends on how deadly you want this guy to be. The first thing I'd probably scale back is the TYPE of attack, and make it an EB or some kind of Hand Attack.

 

Assuming you're playing "standard supers" power level, the usual range for damage is 6 DC to 14 DC. In practice, that seems more to be 12-15 DC. 20 DC is plenty to give an "ubervillain" - with an EB, he'll average 70 STUN. That's going to hurt anyone it hits.

[Bartman]

30DC attacks are entering the realm of nuclear weapons. If I were a player I would be left speachless if a GM hit me with a 10d6 KA. Hit em with a 6d6 or 7d6 KA. They will still fear the guy, and they'll live to fear him again and again.

[Syberdwarf2]

Son of Oops

 

Thanx for all the suggestions and advice.

Just for the record, I've scaled back the attack to 4d6. Here's where it stands right now;

 

Sword Of Michael: RKA 4d6, No Range, OAF Sword

 

I changed it to RKA instead of HKA because as someone pointed out, HKAs add dice due to STR. Both limitations can be bought off to reflect when he figures out that he doesn't actually need a physical sword (he can create a flame blade), and again when he realizes he can project it at range.

 

As for the rest of the defenses (PC and Villain), I'll be posting both as soon as I finish re-copying the character sheets to reflect changes and cleanup.

[Talon]

The randomness of Killing Attack STUN multiples is well-known -- even a 4d6 KA can easily do 75 STUN. Many people make a house rule to reduce this randomness: my favorite is to make the STUN multiple 2,2,3,3,3,3 (off a d6 roll).

[lemming]

Re: How Much Is Too Much?

 

Originally posted by Syberdwarf2

the one that really concerns me is a 10d6 HKA.

 

Let me guess? It fit in the Multipower?

 

It might be a little high. If you scale back the HKA to say a 2d6, you can still push the HKA to 2.5 for a 5d6 + 1 HKA in the event that 4d6 isn't doing it for the villian.

 

Then again, you can always squeeze in some advantages if you really want to fill in the slot such as: Reduced End, Increased Stun, Area Effect One Hex, AP, Autofire...

Link in some Streching (It's a really big sword...)

 

*why yes, I've seen this before

 

Or solve it the way your last post went.

[prestidigitator]

I think Dr. Anomaly has it right with considering the average defenses of the PCs. Look at the Active Points in your power as well (including Str for HKAs). It may be above any Active Points you have for your PCs, but is it way above? Is it way above the highest Active Point attack your PCs themselves have taken?

 

Also, consider not using killing attacks (especially Penetrating ones) at all. They often don't fit in a superhero genre (even for the villains, with some exceptions). Even swords are often Hand Attacks in a superhero game. If you make it a normal attack with the same Active Points, chances are the PCs will take far less Body, and a bit more Stun (average Stun for normal DCs is higher, while average Body is less--not to mention the applicability of normal PD and ED).

 

Another option is to take that power which could be completely devestating to one PC, and make it more interesting. For example, keep the same Active Points, but make it an Area of Effect, or split it into an attack Linked to an Entangle or Flash. Or what if the power is Limited in such a way that it will be very hard for the villain to hit the PCs, but if he does, watch out.

 

Of course, all of this depends on the intended role of the villain, as well. Are the PCs intended to fight him directly? Is he someone they should avoid at all costs, while trying to still meet their objectives? Must they defeat him, but in an indirect fashion? Maybe by catching him on their terms, or without direct combat. Depending on your players, this kind of thing might have to be frighteningly obvious, as players are often very ready to just storm up and attack anything that moves. (I guess this is more the Dr. Destroyer type baddie.)