Religious Super Heros PC or otherwise

[Hermit]

My own thoughts on Nightcrawler

 

Originally posted by Trebuchet

It's important to recognize that there's a substantial difference between "being religious" like Nightcrawler and being "of a religion" like Thor or Hercules. With Nightcrawler, I think the comic writers mostly wanted to explore the dichotomy between his demonic looks and his faith. I also don't recall Nightcrawler as being particularly religious when he was first introduced in the 80's; his Catholicism was sort of mentioned in passing but wasn't a major issue.

 

While I agree about the dichotomy about his looks and faith, I recall quite a few good moments in the comics I read at that explored NC's religous side. (I thought he was introduced in the 70's myself-nitpick I know). Scenes I recall fondly were the X-Men battle against Dracula, where Kurt puts the hurt on Drac by taking two simple sticks and ramming them together in cross formation.

 

And the one where the Xmen are about to go into battle... Wolverine seeks out Nightcrawler, and finds him praying.

 

NIghtcrawler admits he is, and admits how oten times he seeks comfort from such. He then asks Wolverine if he believes, and if so in what? Wolverine's response is "Me? I believe in what I can touch, smell, taste." With an inference that there is nothing more beyond that.

 

Nightcrawler gives him a look of sympathy and says "ach, mein friend, I never realized how lonely you really were until now."

 

Wolverine scoffs, and goes "Who's lonely? I got you ain't I?"

 

And off they go.

 

I think the other purpose Nightcrawler had was to contrast was to Wolverine's cynicism and disabelief in things he could not sense, and in Storm's former 'goddess'hood.

 

Really, it depended on the writer , there were some that even had Nighcrawler's faith shattered later on, but I'd still put him as one of the first religious super heroes, and it never struck me as in a particularly 'bad' way

[GenreFiend]

Re: My own thoughts on Nightcrawler

 

Originally posted by Hermit

I'd still put him as one of the first religious super heroes, and it never struck me as in a particularly 'bad' way [/b]

 

I don't think you can qualify Nightcrawler as one of the first religious super-heroes. That's assuming that none of the Golden Age or earlier Silver Age heroes were religious. I think that NC was just one of the first ones where his religion was important to the story. In the 40's, it was just kind of assumed that most everybody was religious, and therefore it was just no big deal. But, when you're in Nightcrawler's situation, on a team like the X-Men (as opposed to, say, the JSA), then yeah, being devout makes you stand out from the crowd.

[starblaze]

Originally posted by OddHat

The Catholic church has been the center of several of my campaigns, and cults are favorite villain groups; wiccan and other pagan covens have played parts as well. There have been a few good and evil Jewish, Hindu, Shinto and Islamic groups as well. Plenty of Voodoo / ritual magic practitioners too. Magic is almost inseperable from religion after you get past the most surface level comic book or modern fantasy treatments of the subject; I can't imagine having a magic heavy campaign without religious themes.

 

As to current characters, one player is running a dimension hopping Jewish ex-atronaut, one is running a practitioner of Taoist magic, and I've had Catholic priests, Shinto priests and Rabbis in recent campaigns.

 

So a Priest, a Rabbi, and a Voodoo Hogun walk into a Viper nest...

LOL

[Hermit]

Re: Re: My own thoughts on Nightcrawler

 

Originally posted by GenreFiend

I don't think you can qualify Nightcrawler as one of the first religious super-heroes. That's assuming that none of the Golden Age or earlier Silver Age heroes were religious. I think that NC was just one of the first ones where his religion was important to the story. In the 40's, it was just kind of assumed that most everybody was religious, and therefore it was just no big deal.

 

I'm not sure. I'm no expert on golden age comics, but I don't recall much praying or going through any religious situations for many super heroes. Everyone was supposedly patriotic, but we were seeing super heroes carry the flag or salute was wide out in the open as well. I'm not saying they weren't religious, but it was very 'off panel' and therefore we never really will know. You can assume all day, but that's all it would be. With Nightcrawler, we 'knew'.

[Cybernaut]

Not necessarily game related, but I have been writing a couple of short stories about angels and demons masquerading as people in the modern world. I'm just now putting the polish on the second installment, titled "Vortex". Trebuchet's recently read the first story and said I had an interesting take on things, though I will hardly presume to say my works of fiction are completely consistent with traditional protrayal of such beings.

[OddHat]

Originally posted by Cybernaut

Trebuchet's recently read the first story and said I had an interesting take on things, though I will hardly presume to say my works of fiction are completely consistent with traditional protrayal of such beings.

 

Nor should they have to be. That would make for some very odd fiction.

[Cybernaut]

Originally posted by OddHat

Nor should they have to be. That would make for some very odd fiction.

That's very true, though I do at least try to give my characters the kind of personalities and attitudes I believe they should logically have.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by zornwil

Hey, btw, Treb, what did you think of Ragman?

Who?

[Trebuchet]

Re: My own thoughts on Nightcrawler

 

Originally posted by Hermit

Really, it depended on the writer , there were some that even had Nighcrawler's faith shattered later on, but I'd still put him as one of the first religious super heroes, and it never struck me as in a particularly 'bad' way

NC's "nuttiness" wasn't portrayed in such light in the X-Men comics. As you pointed out, his faith was more low-key in the comics. Religion is usually subtle; it doesn't need to hit you between the eyes. But his portrayal in the X-Men 2 movie was a bit over the top. When he started mutilating himself, he departed Catholic doctrine (My Catholic girlfriend won't even have her ears pierced; and she was furious when her daughter did.) and came across as a nut. Don't get me wrong, Nightcrawler was by far the most three-dimensional and sympathetic character in either X-Men movie; vastly superior to the cardboard cutouts of Storm, Cyclops and Jean Grey.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

Who?

 

Jewish super-hero who's been around a bit now and again, I don't think he's been taken up by a writer in like 10 years though. Very religiously oriented story and his powers are based on some Jewish religious traits. I just wondered if you'd read him and what you'd thought given your comments.

 

Another one that comes to mind was Ostrander's version of Spectre, which dealt with the theological issues ignored in prior Spectre incarnations. Generally pretty good work.

[TheEmerged]

Re: Re: Re: My own thoughts on Nightcrawler

 

Originally posted by Hermit

I'm not sure. I'm no expert on golden age comics, but I don't recall much praying or going through any religious situations for many super heroes. Everyone was supposedly patriotic, but we were seeing super heroes carry the flag or salute was wide out in the open as well. I'm not saying they weren't religious, but it was very 'off panel' and therefore we never really will know. You can assume all day, but that's all it would be. With Nightcrawler, we 'knew'.

 

Is this the part of the script where I mention that Plastic Man had a basically religious origin during the VERY early part of the Golden Age? Granted the words "God" or "Jesus" aren't used, but it's the classic story of redemption... And I'm talking the original Jack Cole origin, not that stupid retrocon in which he flips a coin to decide whether he's a good guy or a villain.

[zornwil]

Re: Re: Re: Re: My own thoughts on Nightcrawler

 

Originally posted by TheEmerged

Is this the part of the script where I mention that Plastic Man had a basically religious origin during the VERY early part of the Golden Age? Granted the words "God" or "Jesus" aren't used, but it's the classic story of redemption... And I'm talking the original Jack Cole origin, not that stupid retrocon in which he flips a coin to decide whether he's a good guy or a villain.

 

But I think the point of this thread is overtly religious chaacters. The Golden Age didn't produce much, if any, in the way of that.

 

PM was in a religious hospital (or something similar) and "saw the light", but as you say it was presumed that people should do so then. It's not like he went out afterwards and said, "I'm going to do the Lord's work" and we saw that as a theme in the comic. Instead he became "a hero", doing "good".

[TheEmerged]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: My own thoughts on Nightcrawler

 

Originally posted by zornwil

But I think the point of this thread is overtly religious chaacters. The Golden Age didn't produce much, if any, in the way of that.

 

PM was in a religious hospital (or something similar) and "saw the light", but as you say it was presumed that people should do so then. It's not like he went out afterwards and said, "I'm going to do the Lord's work" and we saw that as a theme in the comic. Instead he became "a hero", doing "good".

 

He woke up in a monistary (spelling?). And I'll grant your point, which is why I admitted outright that it wasn't "really" a religious origin.

 

It is however an element I wish DC would play up a bit more -- it's more interesting than the "Horny Jim Carrey on Speed" take Grant Morrison brought to the character (and led to the atrocious "Dark Nut" issue). There were times during the Morrison JLA that I thought it was going to happen -- especially when he started pairing Zauriel and Plaz (it's a natural pairing; the angel and the redeemed) in dialog.

 

One of the fanfic projects I hope to actually write someday is "The Real Origin of a Plastic Man", rectifying the two conflicting origins and addressing this very element. Even if the plot ends on a punchline and is Hallmarky by my standards, I happen to think it works -- but perhaps I'm overly fond of the title

[zornwil]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: My own thoughts on Nightcrawler

 

Originally posted by TheEmerged

He woke up in a monistary (spelling?). And I'll grant your point, which is why I admitted outright that it wasn't "really" a religious origin.

 

It is however an element I wish DC would play up a bit more -- it's more interesting than the "Horny Jim Carrey on Speed" take Grant Morrison brought to the character (and led to the atrocious "Dark Nut" issue). There were times during the Morrison JLA that I thought it was going to happen -- especially when he started pairing Zauriel and Plaz (it's a natural pairing; the angel and the redeemed) in dialog.

 

One of the fanfic projects I hope to actually write someday is "The Real Origin of a Plastic Man", rectifying the two conflicting origins and addressing this very element. Even if the plot ends on a punchline and is Hallmarky by my standards, I happen to think it works -- but perhaps I'm overly fond of the title

 

I do agree with you, they should emphasize this more in the character. I think it got buried partly because in the Golden Age it was too "heavy" to go there (just because the medium was seen as light entertainment, obviously in that day and age in "adult" fiction it would have been done), then the tide of history has ignored that, perhaps unfortunately as a "convenience" of Golden Age story-telling, rather than recognizing that the character had a genuine ephiphany.

 

Good luck with the project, I hope you do it, you should post a link on these boards when you do.

[GenreFiend]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: My own thoughts on Nightcrawler

 

Originally posted by TheEmerged

There were times during the Morrison JLA that I thought it was going to happen -- especially when he started pairing Zauriel and Plaz (it's a natural pairing; the angel and the redeemed) in dialog.

 

I always wanted to see more interaction between Zauriel and the Huntress. I mean, she's a Roman Catholic (although she has slipped a good bit, but she still wore a cross as part of her costume at the time), and he was an honest-to-God (no pun intended) Angel! What does that do to her head? Especially since at the same time both Orion and Barda were on the team, with Orion constantly proclaiming his own godhood.I would have loved to see some deep conversation between the Angel and the Believer concerning the New God.

[TheEmerged]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: My own thoughts on Nightcrawler

 

Originally posted by GenreFiend

I always wanted to see more interaction between Zauriel and the Huntress. I mean, she's a Roman Catholic (although she has slipped a good bit, but she still wore a cross as part of her costume at the time), and he was an honest-to-God (no pun intended) Angel! What does that do to her head? Especially since at the same time both Orion and Barda were on the team, with Orion constantly proclaiming his own godhood.I would have loved to see some deep conversation between the Angel and the Believer concerning the New God.

 

The closest I ever saw them come to the possible Huntress/Zauriel possibilities occured during the "Foreign Bodies" one-shot (I *think* that was the name). Then again, that writer seemed to be quite fond of Zauriel -- if nothing else the writer had Z's character and power level closer to what I feel they should be than anything else I've seen. The throwaway statement during the "Amazo" issue of JLA that implied Zauriel's armor is tougher than Superman is the only "mainline" reference to this (often, one-shots are considered non-continuity).

[Sapphire_Steel]

An interesting post,

I have in my time tried to play various religons and non religions. I have done New age, Jewish, eastern schoolsof thought such as Shinto, and devout Catholic.

 

I think the key here is to not let it be the sole defining point to your character. I mean in the examples you mentioned such as Kitty or ben, they are not religious cyphers.. those can be a bit on the annoying side, remeber just because a person is religious does not mean that is their sole defining point.

 

Keeping it subtle or more realistic, tends to make it more believeable. Also on that note i tend to study some of the religion Im going to play to add to it, thats not needed of course and is just something I enjoy doing.