Populating and fleshing out Saltmarsh

[azato]

Re: Populating and fleshing out Saltmarsh

 

Ok....next point of business. Lets suppose the "nation" to the south (Sea Princes) is very good a sailing, and has a higher caliber navy then does Keoland. Keoland has a some major towns and a city on the coast so trade and materials going through these ports is vital for them economically. Would the risk for Keoland be better mitigated if their ships did not sail far from shore (I mean a reasonable distance) where their navy could better protect and be protected?

[Susano]

Re: Populating and fleshing out Saltmarsh

 

Depends. Do the Sea Princess survive off of piracy? How well do Keoland navigate? If the risk of pirates it high and navigation poor, they may sail always in sight of land and come ashore every night. Of course, if pirates like to lurk along the shore that might drive them further out. And if things are that bad, then Keoland might sail in convoys with a few warships along for protection.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Populating and fleshing out Saltmarsh

 

Ok....next point of business. Lets suppose the "nation" to the south (Sea Princes) is very good a sailing' date=' and has a higher caliber navy then does Keoland. Keoland has a some major towns and a city on the coast so trade and materials going through these ports is vital for them economically. Would the risk for Keoland be better mitigated if their ships did not sail far from shore (I mean a reasonable distance) where their navy could better protect and be protected?[/quote']

 

If these nations are at war, then the Keoland ships would probably stick close enough to shore that they can run in to where a coastal fortress can provide covering fire. They may even be built lighter so that they can run into shallower waters.

 

If they are not at war, and even to a lesser extent if they are, the Sea Princes probably have interests reaching farther out than just their neighbor. Throughout their tumultuous history, England has generally had a better quality navy than France, but they had to protect ports and shipping lanes all over the world. France at times had more ships, and sometimes had better ships, but their crews couldn't match the Brits...their primary strength lay in being less spread around. If England had been as concentrated into a few areas, they would not have had the trouble from France that they did.

 

I suppose what I'm getting at here is that, regardless of whether the Sea Princes have better sailors, better ships, or more ships, if 10% of their navy is all they can bring to bear against the entirety of Keoland's navy, due to 90% of the navy being tied up elsewhere, then Keoland isn't at any major disadvantage locally.

[azato]

Re: Populating and fleshing out Saltmarsh

 

Piracy is one avenue. While my knowledge of history is not the best, I imagine it is not unlike Spain, Portugal or England during various time periods. I have not given the princes their due as far as research and development. But here is how I think it goes....Their homeland provides a good deal deal of wealth on its own. THere may be some issues with sufficient population or perhaps natural barriers that may make commerce via road between regions within the country somewhat difficult.

Money made to maritime activities would probably be the following (from highest to lowest in generating cash).

1. Trade

2. "Protection" (they would "escort" the ships from other nations for their safety)

3. Smuggling

4. Piracy

[azato]

Re: Populating and fleshing out Saltmarsh

 

Thanks, Captain O...perfect.

[Susano]

Re: Populating and fleshing out Saltmarsh

 

Piracy is one avenue. While my knowledge of history is not the best, I imagine it is not unlike Spain, Portugal or England during various time periods. I have not given the princes their due as far as research and development. But here is how I think it goes....Their homeland provides a good deal deal of wealth on its own. THere may be some issues with sufficient population or perhaps natural barriers that may make commerce via road between regions within the country somewhat difficult.

Money made to maritime activities would probably be the following (from highest to lowest in generating cash).

1. Trade

2. "Protection" (they would "escort" the ships from other nations for their safety)

3. Smuggling

4. Piracy

 

Spain and Portugal became rich via exploiting colonies. England (and France) wanted to cripple Spain, hence the privateers. So, if the Sea Princes are that good, then trade, exploration, and the ability to open new markets will bring them far more wealth than extortion schemes, smuggling (why smuggle if you're the only guy who can get the stuff?), or stealing goods from people who don't have the cool stuff you do.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Populating and fleshing out Saltmarsh

 

Spain and Portugal became rich via exploiting colonies. England (and France) wanted to cripple Spain' date=' hence the privateers. So, if the Sea Princes are that good, then trade, exploration, and the ability to open new markets will bring them far more wealth than extortion schemes, smuggling (why smuggle if you're the only guy who can get the stuff?), or stealing goods from people who don't have the cool stuff you do.[/quote']

 

Good points. For that matter, when England was on top, they were much more into trade and shutting down piracy than they had been when Spain was #1.

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: Populating and fleshing out Saltmarsh

 

The problem with piracy is that it tends to be defined top down. The captain of a merchant ship coming back from Newfoundland with a load of cod who makes landfall at Gibraltar, who knows that the price of cod at Sallee is high, and that the excise there is low will feel differently. It's your cod. Why not sell it where it will bring a good price?

Of course, once you get back to Bristol, you'll face difficult questions from the tax man. The obvious answer is that you didn't sell your cargo: the pirates took it. Sale, a fortified suburb of Rabat, is notorious as a "pirate republic." But calling it that was in the interests of many people. After all, the scheme relies on not bringing your profits home in a fat bag of gold that the taxman can find. So what if the next ship in from Sallee happens to offer you an incredibly sweet deal on its cargo? Wow. What a crazy coincidence.

If the government decides that in order to stamp out this kind of crap, it will obviously ban pirate ships from Sallee? That means that instead ships will come to port from Naples, or Villefranche, or Philadelphia, instead.

At one level, it is just a matter of putting a different name on the bow and flying a different flag, well, these things are easy to do at sea. The Romans, who tried to control the Mediterranean by taking over its entire shore, still were constantlly defeated by this sort of thing, and talked about a "corrupting sea."

Which is incredibly misleading. This is a racket that, to work well, requires collusion by the owners, persons on shore with the influence and means to avoid the surveillance of the state. The English couldn't control "piracy" from their shores because the Admirals who were supposed to control it always turned out to be pirate. It's not the sea that "corrupts" the soul, but the fact that the people who carry on trade from the ports of one nation to another just don't feel very patriotic once you start levying excise taxes on the waterfront.

William Penn's grandfather was a Bristol man with a reputation of being able to get good deals trading with Sallee. Henry Mainwaring was a notorious pirate who recruited pirates on the Newfoundland banks to take fishing boats and bring them into the various pirate ports. Then he got a pardon, took William Penn's son on board as a follower, and Daddy Penn ended up a distinguished British admiral and confidant to the King.* William used that influence to gain Pennsylvania, and, sure enough, pirates were soon finding refuge in Philadelphia, while the Barbary Coast was becoming the major source of horses and mules for the expansion of the Pennsylvanian economy. It's a multigenerational weave of families making their fortunes from the "corrupting sea," in opposition to the state.

So what does that mean in practice? First, control of the shore: here's how the Romans tried to deal with this problem along the coast of the Fens: The Saxon Shore. Of course, there are some who argue that the forts of the Saxon shore are a defence against invaders, rather than an attempt to control coastwise traffic. I'm unconvinced. If you asked the crews of the fishing boats and coastwise traders of Roman Britain who the "pirates" were, I suspect that they'd point to the Roman fort on the shore.

And here is where we reach the limits of this kind of control. (Also this.) Once the tide suddenly puts a sandbank underneath your keel in a gathering storm, and the lifeboats are launched from the shore, all the kings and princes in the world can't put the tax return back together again.

 

Oh, and it was apparently Charles Kingsburgy, Hereward, Last of the English, not Scott.

 

 

* (Okay, I made up the part where there's a proven connection between Mainwaring and the Penns. It makes a better story, and draws in the connection via Morocco and Newfoundland.)

[Markdoc]

Re: Populating and fleshing out Saltmarsh

 

Ok....next point of business. Lets suppose the "nation" to the south (Sea Princes) is very good a sailing' date=' and has a higher caliber navy then does Keoland. Keoland has a some major towns and a city on the coast so trade and materials going through these ports is vital for them economically. Would the risk for Keoland be better mitigated if their ships did not sail far from shore (I mean a reasonable distance) where their navy could better protect and be protected?[/quote']

 

Depending on how "authentically medieval" you want to be, most cultures were not that good at open-water sailing, so trade routes tended to hug the coast. A few simple navigations spells could easily change that though. The reason that's important is that during the "golden age of piracy" pirates and privateers tended to hang about near the ports or known "choke points" like straits looking for prey. Finding a couple of ships in the vasty ocean blue without magic or technological help is damn near impossible. Even if you can find them, catching them is pretty hard when you both move at similar speed, if they are more than a few hours sail away - that already puts them over the horizon.

 

However .... look at the map. The coastline basically runs north-south. There are no choke points apart from one: the strait between Baymouth and Monmurg. And that's right next to the Sea Princes' capital. I'm guessing they own that stretch of water. They also own Torvin, so effectively they control trade into the Javan river. Borders are not marked, but I'm guessing the river and swamps are it. Anyway, if the Sea Princes have a better fleet, in this situation, I'm guessing they pwnz0r Keoland at sea, since the strategic situation favours them. That really leaves only two options, realistically:

 

1. Most of the merchants who trade with the southern towns are warranted by the Sea Princes, so the southerners dominate the trade. Trade in Keoland probably travels down that conveniently located major road and the towns and cities serve as meeting points where Keoland merchants meet and trade with Sea Princes ship captains. It means they are market towns. Keoland may not even have a big navy - but if that's the case, the coastal towns are probably well fortified and protected by small fleets of galleys or longships - which are more reliable along the coast and carry more men for their size than carracks or cogs, but which are not as suitable for long voyages or cargo. There's probably a line of beacons along the coast to warn of pirates or raiders and there's also probably a lively smuggling trade across the swamp and river by small merchants who want to avoid paying market fees to Keoland and shipping taxes to the Sea Princes. For Keoland, building a large navy and convoying ships to the Hold of the Sea Princes seems like a losing proposition. Not only are they outmatched at sea, but they have to sail directly to their rival's strongholds, making intercepting their ships trivial should it come to hostilities, and subjecting their ships to taxation. They might do it anyway: kings and nobles have traditionally hated being dependent on their neighbours, but economic pressures would probably push them towards the option above.

 

2. Keoland has lots of trees. The Hold of the Sea Princes does not. In terms of ship-building power, that gives Keoland an edge. If they exploit this, you might end up in a situation where Keoland has far more ships, but the Sea Princes have better ships. In that case Keoland would have a more even share of the trade - maybe even dominating it, but their ships probably sail in convoys and piracy likely becomes a major problem for ships in small numbers. In this situation, relationships between Keoland and the Sea Princes is likely to be tense, even hostile ("Why can't you do something about those damn pirates!" ) but the action in terms of the towns means that goods flow into the Keoland ports, are stored (that means big warehouse districts) until a trade fleet assembles to sail southwards. The biggest markets, in this scenario probably move largely to Monmurg, with agents from the hold living in Keoland to do business.

 

Last point - there's a town called Winward, in the Sea Princes' Hold, and its location, facing the coast suggests the prevailing wind is off the land. That means Winward - smack in the middle of a dangerous sailing coast, and to a lesser extent Baymouth and Seaton, both with dangerous windward stretches of coast nearby, are probably not ideal trade ports. Seaton's not too badly off, but Saltmarsh might serve Seaton as an alternate port when the winds are strong: goods are off-loaded there and trundled down the road to Seaton. That means hostelries and stables for the trade and probably also hostlers to service wagons and animals. Anyway you slice it Monmurg looks like the trade capital of the area and the place to go for adventurers seeking strange tales from foreign parts or a quick ship out of Dodge. I'm guessing a lot of trade actually goes straight up the coast to Sanduchar and Gradsul from Monmurg and vice versa.

 

I dunno what you have thought of as far as technology and culture goes, but I am looking at Keoland and the Hold and noticing some distinct contrasts. Keoland has major roads and lots of towns and villages. The hold has only minor roads and few towns and villages, but two cities, almost all on the coast. The middle of the country looks pretty empty. That suggests to me that that the hinterland of Keoland is more developed and more populated: that means farming, mining, lumber, manufactured goods, etc and also that internally, it's relatively well-organised: major roads don't survive if there's no trade and if there's no law and order you don't get trade. The Hold by contrast has a fairly concentrated population - and no major roads. If they survive on fishing, trade and piracy, you might want to consider what the people at Westkeep do for a living. The name suggests a fortified place, but there must be something there to make a city and to warrant one of the Hold's only two minor roads. If the marshes of Hool have that bayou feeling you suggest then I'm thinking the Hold is the Texas coast - scrubby pine woods, sandy soils, small families of independant small holders and nomadic herders, inland, fishermen on the coast. It suggests that economically trade is important to them too, but it looks like it all goes by sea. In that case Westkeep is the "inland capital" where local people come to trade for manufactured goods for fish and salt brought up from the coast, in return offering cheeses, meat, wool, wood products from the swamp, etc. It also serves the Princes as a military base to keep control of those damned independant smallholders and nomads. Last of all, I noted above that Keoland has plenty of forest. The Hold doesn't. If there's one thing that sea-faring nations need it's wood and lots of it. There's a useful trade good right there.

 

cheers, Mark

[azato]

Re: Populating and fleshing out Saltmarsh

 

You guys are awesome.

[Susano]

Re: Populating and fleshing out Saltmarsh

 

I'm pretty sure there's nothing Markdoc doesn't know.

[azato]

Re: Populating and fleshing out Saltmarsh

 

Either he started life with more character points or he spent them more wisely than the rest of us.

 

I'm pretty sure there's nothing Markdoc doesn't know.

[Old Man]

Re: Populating and fleshing out Saltmarsh

 

The former. Not only does he know everything, he had points left over to spend on Hero.

[Markdoc]

Re: Populating and fleshing out Saltmarsh

 

The former. Not only does he know everything' date=' he had points left over to spend on Hero.[/quote']

 

And we haven't even discussed the points I spent on wealth, getting to be a world-class scientist or highly decorated special forces veteran!*

 

Seriously, though, I have a couple of advantages over your average fantasy geek - living in Europe and having friends who are medieval history professors means that I get to do stuff that I used to dream about when I lived in the US or New Zealand. I've held some of our oldest copies of Icelandic sagas in my hands, have access to many original medieval manuscripts and gotten to do fun things like load and fire full size medieval siege engines, sail in medieval ships and visit medieval towns (I'm going to Syria next month and you can bet trips to Krak de Chevaliers, Saone, the citadel at Aleppo, the old souks, the dead cities, etc are on the agenda). One of the lawyers I work with is part of a crew that has sailed a recreated viking longship to Norway, Scotland and Ireland - and back: they're talking about a voyage to Iceland next year. I've learned a lot just talking with him. I've worked with a research team recreating early dark ages iron-smelting towers (at Lejre), and held/worn genuine medieval weapons and armor. And I work in some of the world's least developed countries where a lot of this stuff is done on a regular basis - I've watched a swordsmith making steel and swords (for use, not recreations) the old-fashioned way in Harrar, seen people who rely on oxen and home-made plows for their living, visited working medieval-style tanneries or medieval style markets where animals are butchered right in front of the stalls. I've seen sword-armed warriors collecting salt from salt pans the old fashioned way (with hands and sticks) and then transporting it to market by camel caravan. I've watched old ladies collecting firewood and then walking it huge distances on their backs to sell for a few pennies. I've watched witchdoctors treat patients (and had to clean up their messes - I hate those guys). All that gives you perspectives you can't get out of books - but at the same time, it lets you see stuff in books - especially contemporary accounts - that wouldn't necessarily be obvious: in many cases, they are not named because at the time it was assumed "Everybody knows that".

 

Also, as any player can tell you, you need to travel and get out where things are a bit rough if you want to earn some XP!

 

Anyway, thanks, guys - it's nice to be appreciated.

 

Cheers, Mark

 

*OK, I made that last bit up

[Vondy]

Re: Populating and fleshing out Saltmarsh

 

30 miles a day? In a swamp?

 

If they've built foot-bridges or raised roman style highways its possible.

 

Or if they've got good waterways like the bayous.

[Vondy]

Re: Populating and fleshing out Saltmarsh

 

Seriously, though, I have a couple of advantages over your average fantasy geek - living in Europe and having friends who are medieval history professors means that I get to do stuff that I used to dream about....

 

I feel the same way about living in Israel, though its more geared to classical and archeological history than medieval history. We do have great crusader fortresses, but are roman era and temple era ruins are astounding. I think this affects my gaming/writing endeavors. And Israeli culture is fairly egalitarian/friendly. If you have the barest of pretexts or acquaintance you can usu. call someone - be they a member of knesset or university professor - and get them talking about their subject. My job often gives me a fairly solid pretext. We have a show dedicated to history-archeology of Israel and the Levant. Its allowed me to meet people I can contact. Let alone the hosts, one of whom is a historian and one of whom is an archeologist. I've gotten to know several museum curators and professors as a result.

[Alcamtar]

Re: Populating and fleshing out Saltmarsh

 

What are your thoughts???

My overwhelming thought is... I love that map!!

Where'd it come from? Is it online somewhere, or from a published product?

[azato]

Re: Populating and fleshing out Saltmarsh

 

http://www.oerthjournal.com/webz/Southern%20Keoland.gif

 

If you think that map is cool, check out the others at

http://www.canonfire.com/cfnew//modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=viewdownload&cid=4

 

 

http://ghmaps.net/

 

 

My overwhelming thought is... I love that map!!

Where'd it come from? Is it online somewhere, or from a published product?

[Hierax]

Re: Populating and fleshing out Saltmarsh

 

Saltmarsh Area Map:

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]35138[/ATTACH]

[Alcamtar]

Re: Populating and fleshing out Saltmarsh

 

thanks!