Mega-scaled space combat & OCV

[Xavier Onassiss]

I'm working on space combat rules for my Star Hero setting, and it's pretty much all at 'mega-scale' ranges. In fact, everything's mega-scaled: the weapon ranges, the sensors, and the movement. And it all works pretty well, from a number-crunching standpoint.

 

The problem is that mega-scale movement in Hero is considered to be 'noncombat' movement by definition, which results in an OCV of 0, and 1/2 DCV for all spacecraft! I think the DCV issue is solved by just using velocity-based DCV, but what about the OCV?

 

The simplest fix (I think) is just to ignore this rule, and give the spacecraft their normal OCV, because they're designed for combat at these speeds. But what other ways could this be fixed?

 

Don't look at me,

Xavier Onassiss

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Mega-scaled space combat & OCV

 

I forget...is it permissible under the rules to apply Combat Skill Levels to that 0 OCV, or is it 0 no matter what?

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Mega-scaled space combat & OCV

 

Dunno what the official rules are, but I just used the "How much is an inch, how long is a turn?" stuff for my space combat.

 

CV gets really messed up with Megascale since the Size Level is going to adjust the DCV down. I basically just ruled that an inch in space combat was roughly 10 kilometers, gave all my short range weapons a max range of 10km (ie could only attack ships in their own hex, or the next hex over), etc. Used the dogfighting rules, and made my own custom Martial Maneuvers for things like jinking or pulling emmelman's which would adjust CV, and set "tail." IE, a "Sideways S" could tail / break tail if you won the roll that round, and provide +1 OCV / +2 DCV or whatever - I'll dig it up. Naturally, big ships couldn't use them, only for fighters, but that was mostly what I needed the rules for - there might be 60 fighters darting about that 10km hex.

 

I'd say that when moving at the rediculous speeds necessary for space flight to be practical, then yes, 0 OCV, but adjusted by CSL's and whatnot. Again, your DCV's will likely be in the negatives for any decently sized ship, even with CSL's.

 

HERO... really doesn't do ship-to-ship combat well. Let me rephrase that, it does it very, very well... if you really sink some time into it. But it doesn't do it fast. Or easily.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Mega-scaled space combat & OCV

 

I've realized that using mega-scaled hexes, and five-minute turns (as well as segmented movement and cumulative acceleration!), I don't really need to mega-scale movement powers for spacecraft at all. Over the course of a turn, they're going to achieve 'mega-velocity' on their own as a matter of course. (It all adds up: five minutes at 1G equals 3km/sec!) So I'm eliminating the problem with the assumption that spacecraft are moving at their 'combat speed' by default. They get their combat OCV, and their velocity-based DCV.

 

However, I'm not out of the woods yet. The next question is: what modifiers apply to velocity-based DCV? Is it treated the same as normal DCV for modifiers? What about conditions that halve DCV... do they also apply to velocity-based DCV?

 

 

Don't look at me,

Xavier Onassiss

[dmjalund]

Re: Mega-scaled space combat & OCV

 

IMHO you should be looking at relative velocities - if you are within combat velocity of each other, you get your normal CV, regardless of any "absolute speed"

[megaplayboy]

Re: Mega-scaled space combat & OCV

 

10km per hex for transorbital combat is probably a good starting point, since escape velocity from earth's orbit is about 11.2 km/sec. Star Fleet Battles sets the max combat range at about 1 light second, and 1 hex = 10,000 km. A lot of room between the two benchmarks.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Mega-scaled space combat & OCV

 

For purposes of the campaign I'm working on, most spacecraft will have high-tech torch drives. (High-G thrust for hours, possibly days.) I'm using 1000km hexes and five-minute turns, so one turn at one G gives a delta-V of one hex/turn. (Note this is an approximation.) On this scale, one hex per turn is 3.33km/second! That gives a velocity-based DCV of 23. It goes up from there.

 

As far as 'relative velocity' is concerned, if you're expressing all spacecraft speeds on the same scale, then one hex/turn is the smallest difference in velocity they can have, and you're still looking at DCV 23. Unless they match vectors exactly, in which case I guess it's back to the base DCV.

 

I could just impose the half DCV modifer for being in zero-gravity on all spacecraft, then the velocity-based DCV progression I'm working with would start at 12, and only go up half as quickly. Then things become much more manageable.

 

Don't look at me,

Xavier Onassiss

[dmjalund]

Re: Mega-scaled space combat & OCV

 

Targeting PSLs to negate velocity based CV mods (simple predictive algorithms)

[megaplayboy]

Re: Mega-scaled space combat & OCV

 

One key thing to consider here is acceleration/deceleration. Humans, wearing G-suits, suitably reclined and carefully trained, can handle, at most, about 10 G's of steady combat acceleration/deceleration. That's only about 100m/sec^2. If your scale was 1km per hex, that'd mean ships could only accelerate or decelerate by 1 hex per segment, per turn. At higher scales, ships would essentially have to declare their direction and velocity, and that would be that, even course changes would likely consist of one 60 degree turn per turn or minute.

In order to overcome that, you have to come up with a rubber science explanation--"inertial field stabilizers", artificial gravity on-ship--to justify faster ship acceleration/deceleration. Otherwise you wind up with a situation where ships slow down dramatically(and the scale drops to, say, 100meters per hex) in order to have the archetypal fire and maneuver style ship to ship combat.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Mega-scaled space combat & OCV

 

I think the necessity of "inertial dampeners" is beyond the scope of this thread

 

But yeah, you are going to have targetting computers.

 

So, two thoughts:

 

Don't use Velocity Based DCV, and don't use the 0 OCV for non-com movement. Assume the targetting computers sort out the complex math, and everyone gets their own (or their ship's) OCV/DCV. Simpler, if not exactly satisfying.

 

Or, use Velocity based DCV, don't hit them with 0 OCV, adjust by ship size and other factors (which there aren't many in space), set your hex size and use range penalties as normal, etc. Then see what type of targetting computer (PSL) is needed to even them out.

 

You'll likely have to theorycraft both ways until you find a happy medium where the target's DCV is generally in range with the attacker's OCV, and you have the level of complexity / realism / awesome you desire.

[Cancer]

Re: Mega-scaled space combat & OCV

 

Out of curiosity, is your space combat usually or always on a flat map, or is the 3-D nature of the environment exploited?

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Mega-scaled space combat & OCV

 

@ Kraven Kor: We're pretty much on the same page here. I think that 'happy medium' is going to involve halving the velocity-based DCV; this actually yields results that look playable across the whole range of velocities I expect to see. The DCV's will match up with the OCV's of attacking craft rather well, without huge bonuses from targeting computers, skill levels, etc. This will help keep the numbers involved in space combat smaller and easier to manage, which is one of my design goals.

 

@ megaplayboy: How to cope with high acceleration would be a good topic for another thread. Aside from artificial gravity (which doesn't exist in my campaign) there are a lot of interesting SF sources about how to deal with extreme G's. The Forever War, anyone?

 

Don't look at me,

Xavier Onassiss

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Mega-scaled space combat & OCV

 

Out of curiosity' date=' is your space combat usually or always on a flat map, or is the 3-D nature of the environment exploited?[/quote']

 

You might have meant this for the OP but I'll answer as well. I use a hex map only to keep track of distance and kind of who is close to who. I also kind of use a scaling system since sometimes combat range is in the tens of thousands of kilometers using delayed-effect for weapons - you fire a missile that flies at speed X it might take a few turns - even time-adjusted turns - to reach the target. So if something is in the next hex, it is 10km. If it is 5 hexes out, that might mean 50km, it might mean 5,000km.

 

But this most recent campaign has seen no space combat yet. I'll have / need more info if we get back to that point.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Mega-scaled space combat & OCV

 

Out of curiosity' date=' is your space combat usually or always on a flat map, or is the 3-D nature of the environment exploited?[/quote']

 

For the moment, I'm working on 2-D rules, and trying to make them easy to use. If I see a 3-D system that doesn't add too much complexity, I'll adapt it later on.

 

 

Don't look at me,

Xavier Onassiss