Mental Defense and Power Defense both as figured characteristics

[SkyKnight]

I have several times seen the suggestion for a house rule to make mental defense a figured characteristic. In other words, all characters would start with EGO/5 points of Mental Defense for free.

 

The idea sort of interests me, so I started thinking, what about Power Defense? Would would happen if you gave everyone Power Defense equal to BODY/5?

 

Both could be treated the same way as PD and ED, with a normal characteristic maximum of 8 and costing 1 cp per point to increase. I suppose the Age disadvantage would increase the maximum for Mental Defense, and probably decrease the maximum for Power Defense.

 

What do you think, assembled Herodom?

 

SkyKnight

[JohnOSpencer]

I like the idea of figured Power Defense(and Mental Defense). Body/5 sounds good to me. I would not let heroic characters buy it up, though. And Maximum doesn't matter in superheroic.

 

John Spencer

[Jeff]

I've seen Mental Defense as a figured characteristic for house rules often enough. I don't recall seeing a rationale for it though, and none spring to mind. Me, I like it that having any Mental Defense (or Power Defense) at all is something distinctive, and Power Defense seems too exotic to me to be appropriately based on a characteristic.

[CrosshairCollie]

I would probably base Power Defense off of Constitution, myself ... for 'hardy sorts' who can weather/shrug off that sort of thing.

[JohnOSpencer]

Originally posted by CrosshairCollie

I would probably base Power Defense off of Constitution, myself ... for 'hardy sorts' who can weather/shrug off that sort of thing.

 

Con is already effective enough for the points. Time for Body to be worth something more.

 

John Spencer

[TheEmerged]

Originally posted by Jeff

I've seen Mental Defense as a figured characteristic for house rules often enough. I don't recall seeing a rationale for it though, and none spring to mind. Me, I like it that having any Mental Defense (or Power Defense) at all is something distinctive, and Power Defense seems too exotic to me to be appropriately based on a characteristic.

 

Rational is pretty simple, actually -- it's already true but for a technicality.

 

When you buy that first point of MD as a power, you get EGO/5 points of it "for free". In effect, you already had it but couldn't use it.

 

Speaking as a GM that has done this with EGO for a long time, I find that it helps to mitigate some of the problems with ECV powers in the first place. This is especially true since 5th Edition made the earlier option from "Ultimate Mentalist" regarding Cumulative for mental powers official.

 

As for Power Defense -- well, I've experimented with giving PC's a set amount of Flash Defense equal to their INT/5 to reflect the ability to sense the nature of the attack and take appropriate measures (covering ears, holding nose, averting eyes, etc). I *wanted* to do this with Power Defense as well but couldn't find an appropriate ability to attach it too -- and BODY doesn't work for me because it's already tied to STUN.

[Jeff]

Originally posted by TheEmerged

Rational is pretty simple, actually -- it's already true but for a technicality.

 

When you buy that first point of MD as a power, you get EGO/5 points of it "for free". In effect, you already had it but couldn't use it.

Okay. I'd take that as a very good reason for keep minimum costs for Mental Defense. I hadn't gotten out of the habit of assuming them.

Speaking as a GM that has done this with EGO for a long time, I find that it helps to mitigate some of the problems with ECV powers in the first place. This is especially true since 5th Edition made the earlier option from "Ultimate Mentalist" regarding Cumulative for mental powers official.

With little mental powers going past no defenses to build up to a decisive effect with a few repeated applications? Hmm. I can see that, but then, I think that cat gets out of the bag various ways already and I haven't come across it more than theoretically.

 

I'm a lot more worried about that with Transform.

[SkyKnight]

Also, CON determines Energy Defense. The way I'm looking at it, BODY represents how much alteration your body can take before it gives up and you die. A high BODY score might give you some resistance to tampering. Realistically, a normal human could only get 4 points of Power Defense through high stats, and almost nobody every buys their BODY up that high anyway. It's just a little perk to those who buy up their little respeced fourth physical characteristic.

 

Originally posted by JohnOSpencer

Con is already effective enough for the points. Time for Body to be worth something more.

 

John Spencer

[TheEmerged]

Originally posted by Jeff

Okay. I'd take that as a very good reason for keep minimum costs for Mental Defense. I hadn't gotten out of the habit of assuming them.

 

I'd argue against the minimum cap for MD myself. To me, this is something a person can develop at least a little of without a whole lot of training -- and that's beside the Cumulative problem.

 

With little mental powers going past no defenses to build up to a decisive effect with a few repeated applications? Hmm. I can see that, but then, I think that cat gets out of the bag various ways already and I haven't come across it more than theoretically.

 

I'm a lot more worried about that with Transform.

 

In the slightly over 12 years I played 4th Edition, I never saw a single player build a Transform without Cumulative (it wasn't automatic under 4th Edition). Ever. Transform above the 5 pts per d6 level is simply to expensive to be useful if it isn't cumulative, in my experience-based opinion.

 

As for low-dice Cumulative mental powers, HERO has always been slightly imbalanced in the area of "low base cost, highly advantaged" powers (insert "Destroy the world for 35 points" joke here) so it shouldn't be a surprise that this is true of Mental Powers as well. Especially in lower-point superheroic campaigns or most NCM-default campaigns, Cumulative not only allows powers to be effective without becoming too costly while simultaneously fitting several genre bits. However they quickly become unbalanced -- to the point that you end up having to give almost every NPC mental defense anyway.

[OddHat]

A slightly different take:

 

I've never been able to wrap my head around just what the heck "Power Defense" was meant to be other than a gamism. PD and ED make some sense; resistance to impacts and crushing, resistance to burning. Mental Defense makes some sense; resistance to "psychic powers." Power Defense might make sense as a sort of "supernatural resistance" except that there are many non-supernatural special effect attacks that go against power defense (true of the others as well, but less so). So, other than a rules artifact, what the heck is it?

 

In some campaigns I've merged Mental and Power defense, charged 2 points per point for "Psychic Shields," and given the new defense a base value of Ego/10 (rounded up). Transformation attacks that were not clearly psychic or supernatural in nature (blinding acid splash to the eyes, mind controlling drugs) were instead applied against the hardened version of whatever conventional defense seemed appropriate by special effect (a hardened FF or hardened Flash Defense eye coverings will stop the acid, the mind control drug is an NND vs Resistant PD, appropriate LS or non-human physiology) at no charge.

 

In my current campaign I'm playing with very few house rules, mainly because my current players aren't yet familliar enough with the system to deal with a lot of changes.

[BNakagawa]

Occasionally, GMs will only allow power defense to apply to one sfx group or the other. Only vs magic or only vs drugs or diseases. Makes a certain amount of sense.

 

I do like the idea of mental defense being a figured stat. Ego attack is way too powerful for the points, its about time the field got leveled a bit.

 

$0.02

[dugfromthearth]

defenses

 

I too never understood power defense. I don't use it. Anything that goes against power defense I make into an NND.

 

A basic problem with mental defense is that GM's require some explanation for why you have it. Mental powers are incredibly effective. This is only offset by having cheap mental defense. But then characters are not allowed to buy it. Which makes mental powers overpowered. It would be like not allowing characters to buy up ED - everyone would use energy attacks.

 

While I like the idea of inherent mental defense, it does run the risk of affecting NND's. Same with inherent flash defense (which I wouldn't use). If the defense against some NND's is mental or flash defense and everyone has them, that causes an obvious problem.

[JmOz]

The solution to the NND is to set a break point, instead of being immune if you have Mental defense, you are immune if you have 5 points (or ten) or more.

 

As a GM I would allow this (I use MD as a figured) 5 points would be the +1/2 NND (For a common defense), and 10 for the +1

[dugfromthearth]

that is forbidden

 

setting an amount of a defense is either against the rules or something the rules say you are not supposed to do.

 

I do it.

 

But I believe the rules say not to.

[Jeff]

Re: that is forbidden

 

Originally posted by dugfromthearth

setting an amount of a defense is either against the rules or something the rules say you are not supposed to do.

 

I do it.

 

But I believe the rules say not to.

They do. But if you're going to make Mental and/or Power Defense a figures characteristic, they become a normal defense, so that restriction would no longer be appropriate.

[TheEmerged]

Re: that is forbidden

 

Originally posted by dugfromthearth

setting an amount of a defense is either against the rules or something the rules say you are not supposed to do.

 

I do it.

 

But I believe the rules say not to.

 

/humor on

 

Dude, this is HERO. Anytime the rules tell you not to do something, it should be read "without the proper advantages and/or adders".

 

 

/humor off

[dugfromthearth]

I agree

 

you are correct of course

 

I just like to be explicit when I suggest something that goes against the rules.

 

I do lots of things that are against the rules or change the rules, but I want to be clear when I am explaining the rules and when I am making them up.

 

although I suppose the way I do things I should say that assume I am making it up unless I explicitly state I am following the rules. Since more often than not I am making it up.

[zornwil]

LIke so many others, I have MD = EGO/5, and all characters have that.

 

I changed Power Defense (an odious construct in my mind but it covers a vague area to begin with) to Supernatural Defense and made that INT/5. Rationale: powers which have no Physical, Energy, or Mental basis seem to fall into Supernatural (generally). When I see an inexplicable drain or transfer in comics, it seems to be magical (or, you could say, magic is a misunderstood energy, different enough that our physics rules for energy don't apply). I felt more often than not, by default, powers against Pow Def could (again, by default) change to Supernatural Defense.

 

I based SD on INT for two reasons: first, magical people usually depend on INT; second, it really seems to me that more often than not in the comics, the super-intelligent either deny magic so strongly that it works for them, or they intuitively grasp defending against it. I've seen Richards and Batman both be unusually resistant to magical stuff. So I like this linkage.

 

Is it perfect? No. I'm not ready to suggest it be adopted as a standard rule. But I like it enough to keep using it, and players seem to grasp it pretty well. I've added, naturally enough, a Supernatural Blast and Based on Supernatural as a power and advantage, respectively, but that's where I'm least satisfied at this point. I can never get the costing to an ideal level, but I do find it's worked well in either encouraging magic (make it cheaper) or discouraging magic (make it more expensive0. But I haven't hit the "just right" button, and re discouraging, well, then people just use Energy Blasts and say they are magic manifested as real-world energy - which is okay if that's what it is, but dilutes some cooler magical stuff.

 

But re Power Defense, I find this works well as a replacement.