Dark Sun profanating spell effect

[Doc]

Hi people,

 

I had already started a thread about this here: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/66735-Negative-side-effects-for-spell-casting , but I'm still looking for an appropriate way to build the defiling effect of arcane spellcasting from the old the Dark Sun campaign setting.

 

For people who might not be familiar with the setting, spellcaster use vital energy to fuel their spells. Spellcasters can basically be divided between two types: preservers and defilers. Defilers are beyond salvation; they cannot cast without the defiling effect. Preservers try not to do so, but are able to do so to boost their spells if needed (even though it has terrible moral effects on them).

 

So, I've been working on this for two weeks now and here's what I came to:

 

Transfer 1d6 (standard effect: 3 points) (BODY to END Reserve), Area Of Effect (5" Radius; +1), Variable Advantage (+1 Advantages; Limited Group of Advantages; Area of effect; +1 3/4) (60 Active Points); Conditional Power Power does not work in Ubiquitous Circumstances (affect vegetation only; -2), Lockout (-1/2), Linked (Magic VPP; -1/4) Cost 16 HP and 6 END to use

 

There are two rule tweaks I use here. First, I permit this power to be linked with a power framework (the magic VPP I use for arcane magic in my Dark Sun campaign). Second, the basic defiling radius will be 2". The number of END transfered to the END reserve representing magic points will be augmented for each additionnal hex of radius. The exact amount of points drained will ultimately depend on the spell the character wants to cast. As different kind of terrain have different END value for magic use, a Preserver character might want to slow his or her transfer in order not to kill the vegetation around.

 

A lot of options can modify this basic power. For instance, an arch defiler could buy back the "affect vegetation only" limitation, combined with a "Personal immunity". Some other feats of the D&D3.5 version can be simulated, for instance, by buying the "ranged" advantage.

 

It's probably not perfect and I'm still not sure if this makes sens within the rule system. What do you think about this?

 

Edit: Arggg... I made a mistake in the title of my thread and now, I cannot modify it... It sould be read "Dark Sun defiling spell effect"...

[JohnTaber]

Re: Dark Sun profanating spell effect

 

I am not familiar with Dark Sun but to me this seems like a Side Effect limitation with the effects you specify. I guess I don't see why anyone would pay for that effect. Maybe just add a Side Effect (Defiling) that has the effects given above. If a character has a spell with this limitation they can exceed some set point limit. For example, the campaign limit is 30 active points on spells without this limitation or 45 active points with it. Just thinkin' out loud...

[Old Man]

Re: Dark Sun profanating spell effect

 

What you have there with the Transfer is similar to what I came up with a while back. The main difference is that I didn't stack Variable Advantage on it--I'm not sure I see the need, and that's real expensive. I went with Variable Limitation instead, so that characters could control the rate of transfer with Delayed Effect or Extra Time or whatever. I also left the Transfer unhooked from any spells, so that the Preserver could spend time charging up, but had to spend phases doing so. I found it helped to prevent the Superhero Wizard effect.

 

It's worth paying for since it gives the mage a source of END other than his/her own; all Preservers and Defilers come with a hefty Soc Lim that would more than pay for it anyway. That said, I was really shooting for simplicity in my build, and the Side Effect approach has a lot of merit in that respect.

 

The hardest thing about setting this up is that in Hero terms, shrubbery has a constant BODY and no DEF, so a Transfer will kill it all regardless of how long you take to do it. As such the biggest difference between a Preserver and a Defiler was that the former either has a bigger AOE, or has to move around between Transfers.

[Doc]

Re: Dark Sun profanating spell effect

 

I guess I don't see why anyone would pay for that effect.

 

I thought about it too, but as defilers can augment their defiling capacities in order to harm their opponents simply by being casting (a "leech" in D&D term, wich can also affect animal and intelligent life) and can augment the power of their spell (as per metamagic feats in D&D terme) by defiling... Well, you need a certain knowledge of the setting, as I didn't specify those elements in my firts description.

 

 

What you have there with the Transfer is similar to what I came up with a while back. The main difference is that I didn't stack Variable Advantage on it--I'm not sure I see the need' date=' and that's real expensive. I went with Variable Limitation instead, so that characters could control the rate of transfer with Delayed Effect or Extra Time or whatever. I also left the Transfer unhooked from any spells, so that the Preserver could spend time charging up, but had to spend phases doing so. I found it helped to prevent the Superhero Wizard effect.[/quote']

 

I'm definitely integrating the variable limitation to this; what a great idea.

 

The variable advantage was to permit a defiler to augment the quantity of points transfered (to represent a greater defiling radius for greater spells), even though I know that basic Hero rules don't permit a greater Point transfer.

 

I wouldn't let that power unhooked, though, as the preservation path is supposed to be something hard to follow. I'm affraid characters could just slowly build their power reserve as they go during days before having to use a spell. In the original Dark Sun setting, magic energy wasn't something one could store; you had to drain life energy on the spot while casting.

 

 

all Preservers and Defilers come with a hefty Soc Lim that would more than pay for it anyway. That said' date=' I was really shooting for simplicity in my build, and the Side Effect approach has a lot of merit in that respect.[/quote']

 

Indeed, such a limitation is mandatory, I think. Moreover, I'm aware of the complexity of what I'm trying to build, but I think this is just an element too central to the setting to be cast aside or modified. That's the reason I've been having headache for days now; what a dilema...

 

 

The hardest thing about setting this up is that in Hero terms' date=' shrubbery has a constant BODY and no DEF, so a Transfer will kill it all regardless of how long you take to do it. As such the biggest difference between a Preserver and a Defiler was that the former either has a bigger AOE, or has to move around between Transfers.[/quote']

 

Humm... Isn't there a return rate for plants, too? Maybe preservers would have to buy a "limitation" for a faster return rate to plants, allowing them to cast more often at the same place without becoming tainted by an act of defiling.

 

Thanks, Old Man, this is really interesting!

[Old Man]

Re: Dark Sun profanating spell effect

 

I thought about it too' date=' but as defilers can augment their defiling capacities in order to harm their opponents simply by being casting (a "leech" in D&D term, wich can also affect animal and intelligent life) and can augment the power of their spell (as per metamagic feats in D&D terme) by defiling... Well, you need a certain knowledge of the setting, as I didn't specify those elements in my firts description.[/quote']

 

That's true; I'd forgotten about the leech bit. I had handwaved the augmentation aspect by figuring that the defiler would have more END available for casting, and could thus cast higher AP spells.

 

 

 

 

I wouldn't let that power unhooked, though, as the preservation path is supposed to be something hard to follow. I'm affraid characters could just slowly build their power reserve as they go during days before having to use a spell. In the original Dark Sun setting, magic energy wasn't something one could store; you had to drain life energy on the spot while casting.

 

You are right, of course, but I bent that a bit so as to allow spellcasters a bit more flexibility in spell power. I sort of prevented the constant-charging effect by setting the fade on the END reserve pretty high, so it wouldn't last much more than a turn anyway. But the main factor was that it was something preservers generally wouldn't do. Of course defilers could, but that just makes them more dangerous. >

 

 

Indeed, such a limitation is mandatory, I think. Moreover, I'm aware of the complexity of what I'm trying to build, but I think this is just an element too central to the setting to be cast aside or modified. That's the reason I've been having headache for days now; what a dilema...

 

It certainly is, and I very nearly threw up my hands and just defined it as a side effect AE RKA versus plants. Would be a hell of a lot simpler, but like I said, I wanted to make preserver players think about their spellcasting as opposed to just being the party energy projector.

[Doc]

Re: Dark Sun profanating spell effect

 

You are right' date=' of course, but I bent that a bit so as to allow spellcasters a bit more flexibility in spell power. I sort of prevented the constant-charging effect by setting the fade on the END reserve pretty high, so it wouldn't last much more than a turn anyway. But the main factor was that it was something preservers generally wouldn't do. Of course defilers could, but that just makes them more dangerous. >[/quote']

 

Well, it's a question of taste, then, and I can't argue about that. I just don't share it.

 

 

like I said' date=' I wanted to make preserver players think about their spellcasting as opposed to just being the party energy projector.[/quote']

 

Indeed. Preserving and defiling in my sens should be two ways of doing the same thing. I don't want preserver characters to simply be energy projectors either, neither do I want defilers to be "special" energy projectors. Both preservers and defilers share something they have in common; they just manage it differently.

 

 

I'm still not totally satisfied with this, eventhough I went a long way since the first time I tried to build this two years ago and just now with your interesting inputs, Old Man. It still lacks something to make it more easily tweakable by defilers, more easily adaptable to their options.

 

That's the first time I'm not able to really build something in Hero system. Does it only require a little more work, or did we just touch the limit of the system? But, in some way, that's a very interesting challenge to take, and I'm still willing to work on this! How about you?

[Doc]

Re: Dark Sun profanating spell effect

 

Hey, I got an idea. It's not really worked out yet, so any comment is more than welcomed.

 

We could just invent a new advantage for an erea of effect transfer, an advantage that would cumulate the transfered points. Normally, if you transfer 10 points from a AoE containing, let's say, 5 targets, each and every of those 5 targets lose 10 points (for a total of 50), but you only get 10. This new advantage would allow you to receive the 50 points by Transfer.

 

It would allow preservers to take a larger AoE in order to get enough points to fuel their spells, but without hurting much of the vegetation (each and every "vegetation hex" taking only a small amount of damage, while the cumulated points would be enough for the preservers).

 

Defilers could choose not to buy this advantage to represent the fact that it is easier not to force oneself to be careful with his or her surroundings.

 

What do you think about it, people? What would be the cost of such an advantage?

[Tasha]

Re: Dark Sun profanating spell effect

 

Perhaps the way to do it is to say that Defiler magic has a x point Side Effect that does a AOE body Drain only vs Living matter. That gives the Defilers a reason to have the scorched earth ability.

 

Both Preservers and Defilers could have an ability that was a targeted Transfer to Endurance battery (or in 6e a Body drain linked to an Aid vs Endurance). I say both because preservers are only CHOOSING to not to drain the life around them to fuel their magic. This would allow them to refill their endurance battery by defiling the land around them. Perhaps Preservers could use it on themselves, fueling their magic with their own life energies.

[Old Man]

Re: Dark Sun profanating spell effect

 

That's the first time I'm not able to really build something in Hero system. Does it only require a little more work, or did we just touch the limit of the system? But, in some way, that's a very interesting challenge to take, and I'm still willing to work on this! How about you?

 

I don't really think this is a limit of the system so much as a limit to how much complexity I'm willing to put up with. There are lots of variables--the power of the spell is limited to the availability of living things to suck power from, and the rate of suck can be controlled by the caster, as can the power of the spell. To do this "right", spellcasters would have to buy their spells at the maximum possible AP on the off chance they're casting in a rain forest, and then usually cast at a level lower than that. Then each spell would have to be linked to its own transfer power, whose own power and rate is controllable by the caster. At this point I'm already not wanting to put up with this when playing at 2 A.M.

 

The only real system limit, I think, is the granularity of the BODY of vegetation. I don't know what the BODY of a scrawny desert shrub is but it can't be any higher than 3, and even that seems like a stretch. So there's a real fine line between preservation and defiling here.

 

r

We could just invent a new advantage for an erea of effect transfer, an advantage that would cumulate the transfered points. Normally, if you transfer 10 points from a AoE containing, let's say, 5 targets, each and every of those 5 targets lose 10 points (for a total of 50), but you only get 10. This new advantage would allow you to receive the 50 points by Transfer.

 

It would allow preservers to take a larger AoE in order to get enough points to fuel their spells, but without hurting much of the vegetation (each and every "vegetation hex" taking only a small amount of damage, while the cumulated points would be enough for the preservers).

 

Defilers could choose not to buy this advantage to represent the fact that it is easier not to force oneself to be careful with his or her surroundings.

 

What do you think about it, people? What would be the cost of such an advantage?

 

I'd call that similar to the Cumulative advantage that's available to Transform, so it'd be a +1. Which seems fine to me given that you're talking about an expensive power (Transfer) with an expensive advantage (AOE) already, plus Variable Advantage if you're going that route.

 

Perhaps the way to do it is to say that Defiler magic has a x point Side Effect that does a AOE body Drain only vs Living matter. That gives the Defilers a reason to have the scorched earth ability.

 

Both Preservers and Defilers could have an ability that was a targeted Transfer to Endurance battery (or in 6e a Body drain linked to an Aid vs Endurance). I say both because preservers are only CHOOSING to not to drain the life around them to fuel their magic. This would allow them to refill their endurance battery by defiling the land around them. Perhaps Preservers could use it on themselves, fueling their magic with their own life energies.

 

That's similar to what I'd come up with, only without the drain. I dunno, on the one hand it simplifies things some, on the other hand preservers and defilers are supposed to be the same type of wizard, just that the defiler doesn't bother to control his transfer.

 

I'm actually tempted to just throw all my prior work out the window and go with a Side Effect that's defined to be proportional to the amount of END being expended, then buy the power itself at 0 end. Just forget about all the END stuff and kill plants based on the AP of what is being cast. But then the caster would still have to be able to control the power and AOE of the RKA in the side effect... oh forget it, this isn't any simpler than the transfer method.

[Doc]

Re: Dark Sun profanating spell effect

 

Perhaps the way to do it is to say that Defiler magic has a x point Side Effect that does a AOE body Drain only vs Living matter. That gives the Defilers a reason to have the scorched earth ability.

 

Both Preservers and Defilers could have an ability that was a targeted Transfer to Endurance battery (or in 6e a Body drain linked to an Aid vs Endurance). I say both because preservers are only CHOOSING to not to drain the life around them to fuel their magic. This would allow them to refill their endurance battery by defiling the land around them. Perhaps Preservers could use it on themselves, fueling their magic with their own life energies.

 

Thanks for your input, Tasha, but, in addition to what Old Man already said, cannibilizing one's own life force to fuel spell has always been a defiler's trait in the original Dark Sun setting.

 

 

I don't really think this is a limit of the system so much as a limit to how much complexity I'm willing to put up with. (...) At this point I'm already not wanting to put up with this when playing at 2 A.M.

 

Well, to me, this is sort of a limit...

 

 

The only real system limit' date=' I think, is the granularity of the BODY of vegetation. I don't know what the BODY of a scrawny desert shrub is but it can't be any higher than 3, and even that seems like a stretch. So there's a real fine line between preservation and defiling here.[/quote']

 

Yes, but I like it this way. Preserving should be a hard way to go. Moreover, is the BODY of a hex of vegetation so low? Maybe in a shrub plain or the Ringing Mountains, but not necessarily in the forests on their other side... After all, a square meter of forest contains quite a lot of biomass. The original D&D rules included a quantitative table for spellpower available in each terrain type.

 

 

 

I'd call that similar to the Cumulative advantage that's available to Transform' date=' so it'd be a +1. Which seems fine to me given that you're talking about an expensive power (Transfer) with an expensive advantage (AOE) already, plus Variable Advantage if you're going that route.[/quote']

 

Thanks! This way, Preservers are free to pay for a more extended AoE in order to do little dommage to each hex they target while amassing enough life force to fuel their spell.

 

 

That's similar to what I'd come up with' date=' only without the drain. I dunno, on the one hand it simplifies things some, on the other hand preservers and defilers are supposed to be the same type of wizard, just that the defiler doesn't bother to control his transfer.[/quote']

 

That's all the dilemma we're facing, right now...

 

The hole question is how to give defilers a capacity to defile in proportion to the power of the spells they cast, while, at the same time, imposing a toil on preservers who wish not to taint themselves.

 

I think I got something for the preservers' side of the dilemma with the cumulative advantage and, even though it's not really a simple solution, it satisfies me. I'd like to find something for the defilers' side as well...

[azrad]

Re: Dark Sun profanating spell effect

 

I am not familiar with Dark Sun but to me this seems like a Side Effect limitation with the effects you specify. I guess I don't see why anyone would pay for that effect. Maybe just add a Side Effect (Defiling) that has the effects given above. If a character has a spell with this limitation they can exceed some set point limit. For example' date=' the campaign limit is 30 active points on spells without this limitation or 45 active points with it. Just thinkin' out loud...[/quote']

This is how I would do it. The real advantage of being a Defiler in the game was they advanced levels much faster than a preserver. Since Hero works on a very different system this would be hard to model but relaxing the active point limits on their spells seems like a good way. Just make sure npc's hunt them down like dogs for ruining the environment!

[Doc]

Re: Dark Sun profanating spell effect

 

This is how I would do it. The real advantage of being a Defiler in the game was they advanced levels much faster than a preserver. Since Hero works on a very different system this would be hard to model but relaxing the active point limits on their spells seems like a good way. Just make sure npc's hunt them down like dogs for ruining the environment!

 

Indeed, this was the way it was in AD&D 2nd ed, but things changed a lot in the 3.5 ed (you can find it there: http://www.athas.org ).

 

In that version, as every classes had the same progression pace, defilers could for instance use their defiling as attacks against their opponents or enhance their spell capabilites by augmenting their defiling radius. I found that more interesting and I'd like to find a way to reproduce this in Hero.

[JohnTaber]

Re: Dark Sun profanating spell effect

 

What about letting defilers buy an Aid spell with a Side Effect (Defiles)? If you want to get fancy you could even put a Trigger on the Aid so it happens really fast. You could also give this to everyone as a campaign rule. Just some thoughts...

[Old Man]

Re: Dark Sun profanating spell effect

 

Indeed, this was the way it was in AD&D 2nd ed, but things changed a lot in the 3.5 ed (you can find it there: http://www.athas.org ).

 

In that version, as every classes had the same progression pace, defilers could for instance use their defiling as attacks against their opponents or enhance their spell capabilites by augmenting their defiling radius. I found that more interesting and I'd like to find a way to reproduce this in Hero.

 

Oh, I see. I only ever played under 2nd ed., that's why I was unaware of some of these new defiler tricks. Very interesting, and it pretty much forces us to use variable advantage.

[AlHazred]

Re: Dark Sun profanating spell effect

 

It depends entirely on how you see it for your campaign. The simplest way is simply as a flavor of spellcaster -- defilers take a big Social Complication, while Preservers take a smaller one. This more-or-less exactly duplicates the original AD&D 2nd edition way of doing it -- in that game, defilers had a more rapid XP advancement. In Hero, since everyone starts with the same points, defilers would need to take fewer Complications of other kinds to pay for their powers, since the Soc Comp is so huge. You could also houserule that defilers are allowed 10 or 15 points more than other PCs, but the extra points must be spent only on magic spells and powers.

 

The more complicated version from 3.5E D&D, it seems that preservers don't kill plants, while defilers do. It just now occured to me that you're using 5E to do it, so I'm going to have to reconsider what I was going to say here.

[AlHazred]

Re: Dark Sun profanating spell effect

 

Looking over the freely available 3.5 conversion online, I see this as characteristic of defilers/preservers:

1) Athasian wizards drain energy from the surrounding soil. The method used labels wizards as defilers or preservers. Preservers have the self–control to gather energy without destroying plants. Those who do not' date=' or who feel no remorse about the damage caused, become defilers. Defilers leave behind sterile soil and infertile ash when they cast spells.[/quote']So far, so good. From this description, preservers are normal wizards. They cast and leave no visible trace. It might be appropriate to have a Life Sense Group in Dark Sun, in which case wizards' spells must select Life Sense Group as one of the three groups in which they are visible. This would allow someone with the proper magics/training to tell a preserver was there, but not a casual observer.

2) Defilers leave behind an ashen circle when casting spells. The radius is 5 ft. x spell slot level expended (a 0‐level spell defiles a single 5‐ft. square occupied by the caster)... Defiler's ash is black and totally devoid of life‐giving properties. It is the telltale sign of wizardry. Nothing grows in a defiled area for years. Even if the defiler's ash moves with the wind' date=' the ground remains a lifeless scar. A defiler cannot preserve, but a preserver can defile if desperate.[/quote']So, this is a Side Effect that defilers are required to take on each spell they know, since it's an obvious result of their specific powers and can't be mistaken for anything else. Right now, it's a Minor SE which "only affects the environment near the character" and "occurs automatically whenever Power is used", worth -0 -- essentially a special effect of using magic powers. The radius of effect is close to 2m per level of the spell so, if we assume about 10 Active Points (APs) per spell level in most of the spells, then it's about 1/5 the APs in meters or 1/10 the APs in Inches.

3) Creatures except the defiler caught within the defiling radius at casting time experience pain and suffer a –1 penalty to all attack rolls' date=' weapon damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks for 1 round.[/quote']This is a more substantive effect, akin to the propellers of airplanes doing damage to those who wander within. As a Major SE which "only affects the environment near the character" and "occurs automatically whenever Power is used", it's worth -1/2. I wouldn't bother making it a Linked Power, because it's fairly minor penalty and will be associated with every spell the defiler casts. In Hero terms, I could define that one of two ways.

 

1. If I'm trying to copy the D&D system, then it's a penalty to OCV, DCV, OMCV, DMCV, Characteristic Rolls and Skill Rolls for one Phase. You could also reduce damage rolls by 1 BODY.
   
2. If I'm going by the fact that it "causes pain," then I could see a very small Blast AVAD AE, probably a max of 1d3 or 1d6 (if it's High Fantasy). This is much easier to implement, and won't stop anyone for long -- since defilers in Dark Sun tend to be killed by mobs of angry people blaming them for the desertification of the world, it's going to be much more of a penalty than a useful combat effect, especially since frequently the defiler's allies will be in the radius.
   

4) Plant creatures also suffer 2 hp damage x spell slot level expended (a 0‐level spell inflicts 1 hp damage).

This is part of the Major SE above. It's pretty minor (the most plant creatures could lose is 18 hp -- enough to kill shrubs' date=' but relatively inconsequential to a Shambling Mound or the like). Most PCs will have 18 or more hp when they reach 3rd-5th level, or about Competent Normal equivalent in Hero. I would model this part of the SE as a Drain BODY 1 pip (for spells of 10 APs or less), 1/2d6 (for 11-40 APs), 1d6 (for 41-70 APs), 1d6+1 (for 71-90 APs) or 1+1/2d6 (for 91+ APs) -- it's reasonably close and dramatically displays for the really powerful magic.

5) A defiler cannot preserve, but a preserver can defile if desperate. When defiling, a wizard can extend the casting time of her spells to 1 round and gain a +1 bonus to caster level. Her defiling radius increases by 5 ft. Spells with a normal casting time of 1 round or longer require an extra round to be cast in this manner. Experienced defilers often increase their spellcasting power further through Raze feats.

This is best reflected as a Talent wizards are required to take.

2...Enhanced Defilement: Aid 1d6, all Magic Powers one at a time (+1/2) (9 Active Points); One Use At A Time (-1), Only to Aid Self (-1), Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2), Side Effects, occurs automatically whenever Power is used (only affects the environment near the character; defiling radius increases by 2 meters; -0)...END=1

[Old Man]

Re: Dark Sun profanating spell effect

 

Probably the biggest difference between our two approaches is that I'm trying to develop the Hero mechanics from the backstory and you're deriving them from the D&D mechanics. It seems to me that Hero is actually better able to put mechanics to the backstory preserver/defiler concept than D&D can. In particular, the D&D mechanics described above do not vary according to the availability of vegetation, which the literature suggests they ought to do.

 

That said, what you have come up with there would work pretty well. One of the problems I have with the variable advantage Transfer build is that, though it's closer to how I think preserver magic ought to play out, it's a pain to have to play. I could go either way at this point.

[Doc]

Re: Dark Sun profanating spell effect

 

What about letting defilers buy an Aid spell with a Side Effect (Defiles)? If you want to get fancy you could even put a Trigger on the Aid so it happens really fast. You could also give this to everyone as a campaign rule. Just some thoughts...

 

It sure is interesting; thanks for the input.

 

 

Looking over the freely available 3.5 conversion online, I see this as characteristic of defilers/preservers:

 

So far, so good. From this description, preservers are normal wizards. They cast and leave no visible trace. It might be appropriate to have a Life Sense Group in Dark Sun, in which case wizards' spells must select Life Sense Group as one of the three groups in which they are visible. This would allow someone with the proper magics/training to tell a preserver was there, but not a casual observer.

 

So, this is a Side Effect that defilers are required to take on each spell they know, since it's an obvious result of their specific powers and can't be mistaken for anything else. Right now, it's a Minor SE which "only affects the environment near the character" and "occurs automatically whenever Power is used", worth -0 -- essentially a special effect of using magic powers. The radius of effect is close to 2m per level of the spell so, if we assume about 10 Active Points (APs) per spell level in most of the spells, then it's about 1/5 the APs in meters or 1/10 the APs in Inches.

 

This is a more substantive effect, akin to the propellers of airplanes doing damage to those who wander within. As a Major SE which "only affects the environment near the character" and "occurs automatically whenever Power is used", it's worth -1/2. I wouldn't bother making it a Linked Power, because it's fairly minor penalty and will be associated with every spell the defiler casts. In Hero terms, I could define that one of two ways.

 

 

1. If I'm trying to copy the D&D system, then it's a penalty to OCV, DCV, OMCV, DMCV, Characteristic Rolls and Skill Rolls for one Phase. You could also reduce damage rolls by 1 BODY.
   
2. If I'm going by the fact that it "causes pain," then I could see a very small Blast AVAD AE, probably a max of 1d3 or 1d6 (if it's High Fantasy). This is much easier to implement, and won't stop anyone for long -- since defilers in Dark Sun tend to be killed by mobs of angry people blaming them for the desertification of the world, it's going to be much more of a penalty than a useful combat effect, especially since frequently the defiler's allies will be in the radius.
   

 

This is part of the Major SE above. It's pretty minor (the most plant creatures could lose is 18 hp -- enough to kill shrubs, but relatively inconsequential to a Shambling Mound or the like). Most PCs will have 18 or more hp when they reach 3rd-5th level, or about Competent Normal equivalent in Hero. I would model this part of the SE as a Drain BODY 1 pip (for spells of 10 APs or less), 1/2d6 (for 11-40 APs), 1d6 (for 41-70 APs), 1d6+1 (for 71-90 APs) or 1+1/2d6 (for 91+ APs) -- it's reasonably close and dramatically displays for the really powerful magic.

 

This is best reflected as a Talent wizards are required to take.

 

Wow! You came with it so easily! I'm definitely adopting this method.

 

As for the choice between the D&D and Hero options of the pain effect, I'll go with the second, the Hero option. I'm trying to reproduce the Dark Sun campaign setting feeling but not the (horribly) flawed D&D rules...

 

 

In particular' date=' the D&D mechanics described above do not vary according to the availability of vegetation, which the literature suggests they ought to do.[/quote']

 

I'll just adjust the special effect (defiling)'s radius with the terrain type. In a forest, the defiled zone would be one hex only, in a shrub plain, I don't know, something like one or two hexes radius, more in a boulder field... Arcane spellcasting won't work either in the Dead Land, where there is no life at all.

 

 

One of the problems I have with the variable advantage Transfer build is that' date=' though it's closer to how I think preserver magic ought to play out, it's a pain to have to play.[/quote']

 

That's the reason why I'm adopting the AlHazred method right now. Simplicity is the rule for game rules...

 

 

Thanks again, everybody!

 

 

Edit: Ho, and I forgot... I'll have defilers and preservers take the same social limitation, as in the setting, most people are ignorant of the difference between the two; it's arcane magic that is hated, not only defiling.

[Doc]

Re: Dark Sun profanating spell effect

 

Humm... On second thought, I thnik I'll go with the D&D option for the pain effect. The reason is that defilers are more than often lone vilains; they usually don't have minions, unless they can create undead (wich is not necessarily the case).

 

The D&D pain effect )penalty to OCV, DCV, OMCV, DMCV, Characteristic Rolls and Skill Rolls for one Phase, and I'll had the BDOY damage reduction too) grants them an advantage when fighting groups of opponents alone.

 

I'm also considering imposing an small extra time limitation on preserver casting, even though that wasn't included in the original D&D rules. As I often stated here, preserving should be a hard path to go.

 

What do you think about it, people?

[AlHazred]

Re: Dark Sun profanating spell effect

 

I have two problems with Transfer:

 

1. It's extra work. You have to roll an extra bit and then propagate the Characteristic/Power change to the character live; this is suboptimal. When I've used it, I usually use Standard Effect just to make it less painful.
   
2. Usually, the Characteristic or Power being siphoned off doesn't match the cost of whatever it is you are powering up. If I Transfer BODY (a 1-for-2-point Characteristic) into END (a 2-for-1-point Figured Characteristic), I'm going to get 4 END for each point of BODY I take. If I Transfer the BODY into an END Reserve instead (a 5-for-1-point Power), I'm going to get 10 END for each point of BODY (although, I seem to remember a rule that it only goes at the 4 END per point rate).
   

Since I usually am using Hero to model something described, I don't worry too much about the exact number of points being taken/increased -- I just go with the effect and try to massage it into what I want. Occasionally, it works out really elegantly, but I try not to force it.

[AlHazred]

Re: Dark Sun profanating spell effect

 

The D&D pain effect )penalty to OCV' date=' DCV, OMCV, DMCV, Characteristic Rolls and Skill Rolls for one Phase, and I'll had the BDOY damage reduction too) grants them an advantage when fighting groups of opponents alone.[/quote']Ah, but! It all depends on whether you want them to get an advantage or not. Since this is a Limitation, I wasn't concerned with giving them a tactical advantage. You could go either way, of course, but a SE Limitation should never provide an advantage with no shortfall.

I'm also considering imposing an small extra time limitation on preserver casting' date=' even though that wasn't included in the original D&D rules. As I often stated here, preserving should be a hard path to go.[/quote']In the 3E conversion, they make that an option that adds +1 caster level. The 2-point Talent should make it a real advantage to do so, if you don't care that you're advancing the desertification of Athas.

[Doc]

Re: Dark Sun profanating spell effect

 

Ah' date=' but! It all depends on whether you want them to get an advantage or not. Since this is a Limitation, I wasn't concerned with giving them a tactical advantage. You could go either way, of course, but a SE Limitation should never provide an advantage with no shortfall.[/quote']

 

Humm... Indeed. I may have defilers pay for this effect in particular, then. But how would you do that? Drain cannot target OCV, DCV or damages directly... Drain STR and DEX? But then, it doesn't necessarily lower OCV and DCV by one... How can a defiler pay for this effect?

[AlHazred]

Re: Dark Sun profanating spell effect

 

In 5E, there are two ways to apply OCV or DCV penalties to another character: with Negative Levels, or with Change Environment. Since we're going with an Area Effect here, the latter seems to be the best bet. CE (-1 OCV & -1 DCV) costs 15 points -- 5 points each for the -1 OCV and DCV, and 5 points for the Multiple Combat Effects Adder. Increasing the radius ups the cost as normal. Spice and season to taste.

[Doc]

Re: Dark Sun profanating spell effect

 

Simple and effective. Sold. Thanks!

[Fenixcrest]

Re: Dark Sun profanating spell effect

 

I do something like this with druids in the game I'm running. They all share a fairly large "regional" regenerating END reserve that changes randomly from phase to phase to reflect other druidic activity in the area, and if it ever hits zero then it's bad news for everybody as the region becomes basically a magical deadzone for anywhere from days to weeks, causing things like crop failure and mass exodus of wild animals and other things that druids would have been trying to avoid in the first place.