Killing Damage in 6e

[ghost-angel]

Re: Killing Damage in 6e

 

Skipping posts, tossing in my few coins.

 

One of the things I like about the Hit Location being unchanged is that you get a reward for taking a substantial negative for called shots.

 

It would over complicate the system if there were two separate Hit Loc Charts based on trying to fit with the random "normal" of 1/2D6 StunX and one trying to actually provide a tangible benefit to called shots. Keeping them the same and at the established spread provides a reward and generally (as my experience is showing in the short time I've played 6E games using the Hit Location Chart) not disruptive.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Killing Damage in 6e

 

Or you could roll Strength in with Body; if strength isn't providing damage' date=' maybe body can provide lifting?[/quote']

 

I didn't say Str wouldn't provide damage, I said it could only add to damage. In order to do damage with your Str, you'd have to match it with an equal amount of HA or HKA (a sort of mini-doubling rule, but you could separately consider whether to cap damage added by other things like maneuvers, CSLs, etc.).

[Vondy]

Re: Killing Damage in 6e

 

Skipping posts, tossing in my few coins.

 

One of the things I like about the Hit Location being unchanged is that you get a reward for taking a substantial negative for called shots.

 

It also makes PSLS worth the points you sink into them.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Killing Damage in 6e

 

suggestion

HKA

STR does not add (-1/2)

STR adds up to half DCs (-1/4)

STR can double DCs (-0)

STR can Triple DCs (+1/4)

STR can add completely to DCs (+1/2)

 

That is not a bad idea' date=' except that with a 60 STR and a 1 pip KA, I can go from a 1/2d6 KA (5 pts) to a 4d6+1 KA (7pts) for the cost of 2 points, which is trivial.[/quote']

 

This highlights the issue. I would add, if we have the chart suggested, can I start at +0 for "STR does not add" and buy other attacks with "STR adds to an unlimited extent" for +1? That is, can my 55 STR Brick buy a Multipower with a 10 point pool, and 1 point slots of 1 pip HKA, STR adds unlimited (4d6 HKA w/ STR), 1d6 Flash, STR adds unlimited (12d6 w/ STR), 1/2d6 Drain PD, STR adds unlimited (6d6 w/ STR), 1d6 Blast, STR adds unlimited (12d6 w/ STR) and so on?

 

Can I use the same chart to have other abilities stack (eg. "Blast can double DC's, +1/2)?

 

In my view, adding DC's should be costed as added DC's, not as an advantage on the power added to, or the power which adds.

 

Or' date=' i think more to the point, "Is what the player asking for so full of cheese you'll never get the smell of limburger out of your living room". In the cited example, it's obvious the brick player is trying to play the system and is metagaming for all they're worth . . . in which case, they deserve to get smacked down for it.[/quote']

 

Is he also playing the system if he wants there to be objects on the battelfied for him to throw? The system says "STR can add DC's to a HKA to an unlimited extent". That means that, if said Brick wants a 4d6+1 HKA, he can buy a 1 pip HKA for 5 points, or he can buy a 1 pip RKA, No Range (-1/2) for 3 points, and +4d6 RKA, No Range (-1/2), Drained at the same rate STR is Drained (-1/4) for 34 points - total cost 37 points. I assume you would assert he should spend the extra 32 points.

 

But, if that is the case, why is it different if he has lower STR? If he has a STR of 30, and wants a 4d6 HKA, he would typically buy a 2d6 HKA for 30 points. Should he instesad be required to buy a 2d6 RKA, No Range (-1/2) for 20 points, and +2d6 RKA, No Range (-1/2), Drained at the same rate STR is Drained (-1/4) for 17 points - total cost 37 points? The difference is 5 points instead of 32, but the conceptual issue is unchanged.

 

What if the character is a weakling with 0 STR? Should he be allowed to buy a 4d6 RKA, No Range for 40 points, or is he required to spend 60 points on a 4d6 HKA?

 

At the end of the day, if we accept that +5 STR comes bundled with +1DC to HKA's, then I don't think we can complain that players make use of that functionality.

 

Looking back on 1e, when there was no limit to added DC's, most Bricks had a small (1d6) HKA and took advantage of this rule. But I have never seen an HKA based character have a 3d6 HKA and 15 STR, or a 2d6 HKA and a 45 STR. Are they also gaming the system under the 5e ruiles by keeping their HKA DC's equal to their STR and taking full advantage of the additions offered by that STR? Where some see "gaming the system", others see "efficient character design". The line between the two can be very hazy.

[JmOz]

Re: Killing Damage in 6e

 

Looking back on 1e' date=' when there was no limit to added DC's, most Bricks had a small (1d6) HKA and took advantage of this rule. But I have never seen an HKA based character have a 3d6 HKA and 15 STR, or a 2d6 HKA and a 45 STR. Are they also gaming the system under the 5e ruiles by keeping their HKA DC's equal to their STR and taking full advantage of the additions offered by that STR? Where some see "gaming the system", others see "efficient character design". The line between the two can be very hazy.[/quote']

 

Real easy to see the line: What I like and do is "efficient character design", what I don't like is "gaming the system" so easy...I like good, I dislike Bad

 

Only skimed thread, so if someone else said similar...

As for he micro HKA being abusive...I disagree, now that STR does not add to other characteristics seems like a very limited and simplified MP to me

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: Killing Damage in 6e

 

That is not a bad idea, except that with a 60 STR and a 1 pip KA, I can go from a 1/2d6 KA (5 pts) to a 4d6+1 KA (7pts) for the cost of 2 points, which is trivial.

 

Obviously STR was somewhat broken in 5e. Does STR cost too little still? I don't think so. 5 points will buy you 1 DC of Blast or 1 DC of punching damage. Blast has range, but STR gives you lifting and grabbing utility, so I think that is reasonably balanced. Ternaugh highlights the key problem which is real weapons differ from cinematic ones. Realistically it would be ridiculous to be able to kill someone with a toothpick, but in a supers game you could envision a Brick Trick of throwing the toothpick with such velocity it worked like a flechette round. And as pointed out earlier, from a cost perspective buying a small KA to get massively boosted by STR isn't much different from putting two big attacks in a Multipower. So really I think it is a matter of ruling it to match the realism level of your game.

 

Why are you comparing Blast with STR? Blast's no-range equivalent is HA which has the advantage that STR adds to it. It is worth 5-points per DC, but STR? It gives you everything HA does and then some, which is why they had to give HA a Hand-to-Hand lim even though it was already No Range. STR is still to cheap. If merely having an increased chance of going first is enough to push DEX's cost to 2 points then doing damage on top of the other abilities of STR is certainly enough for it to cost 2 points.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Killing Damage in 6e

 

Only skimed thread, so if someone else said similar...

As for he micro HKA being abusive...I disagree, now that STR does not add to other characteristics seems like a very limited and simplified MP to me

 

I did, but came to a slightly different conclusion. See post #30.

[Beast]

Re: Killing Damage in 6e

 

then you need to change the cost of Blast

the simple idea that 1 DC either Str and Blast cost 5 pts per die

Str has the advantage of also lifting and limited range(and that you can only do as much damage as the item has in def and body)

Blast has the advantage that you can use brace and set to offset range even more and you can use skill levels to bounce the attack or spread for more targets or OCV(both can use sweep at a cost of OCV)

 

Cost STR at 2 points per and get rid of the silly non-limiting lim on hand attacks(which is only there because STR is too cheap) and bingo! Problem solved. 60 STR will still add 12 DCs to a 1-pip HKA, since the rules state that each 5 points of STR equal a DC instead of each 5 character points, but the cost will be prohibitive enough that it's not abusive, and you'll no longer have to special case the END cost for STR in Heroic games.

 

PS. Although some people on this board have made the argument that INT & PRE are somehow worth half as much as DEX, I doubt anyone will make such an argument for STR.

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: Killing Damage in 6e

 

No, I'm afraid you have it wrong. The idea is that Blast and HA cost 5 points per DC, with the caveat that HA has a lim on it since otherwise it would cost as much as STR yet do less. Blast and HA are equivalent because while Blast is ranged, STR adds to HA damage. The same reason that a RKA costs the same as a HKA.

[Beast]

Re: Killing Damage in 6e

 

it is abusive in that you can give a brick a HKA for very little cost compared to other character arch types

And I love playing bricks

it is a cheesey way of gaming the rules

 

As for he micro HKA being abusive...I disagree, now that STR does not add to other characteristics seems like a very limited and simplified MP to me

[Beast]

Re: Killing Damage in 6e

 

STR has been in the rules longer than HA

whether ranged or not both should cost the same (and have in all 6 editions)

both have their own advantages to balance each other out as I noted earlier

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: Killing Damage in 6e

 

It can't be costed wrong because it's cost has been the same since 1st edition? I'm afraid that's a non-sequitur. And if 5 STR isn't really worth more than 5 points, then why doesn't HA cost 4 active points instead of 5? Surely it's because 1 DC of HtH damage is worth 5 points, and STR is simply throwing the real cost of HA off by being so cheap.

[Beast]

Re: Killing Damage in 6e

 

did you think that maybe the cost of HA is wrong?(it has a 4 REAL point cost)

also you have said nothing about the advantages that both have to balance each other out

if you go on the model of HA you which is really Blast with 0 range which is a -1/2 limitation

 

It can't be costed wrong because it's cost has been the same since 1st edition? I'm afraid that's a non-sequitur. And if 5 STR isn't really worth more than 5 points' date=' then why doesn't HA cost 4 active points instead of 5? Surely it's because 1 DC of HtH damage is worth 5 points, and STR is simply throwing the real cost of HA off by being so cheap.[/quote']

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: Killing Damage in 6e

 

It is not Blast with No Range, because STR adds to HA damage. Lifting, grabbing, and throwing are worth more than the advantages Blast get, but STR adding to damage is. This is obviously true since HKAs cost as much as RKA. If HA were a Blast with No Range -1/2, then HKA would be a RKA with No Range -1/2, but neither of them are.

[Beast]

Re: Killing Damage in 6e

 

that is your opinion

I feel the advantages balance out and the all editions of the rules agree with me

 

the big thing is Str in how much you can lift does have a factor in how hard you can hit

you over complicate the game if you make lifting Str a separate things from damage Str

 

What is the worth of lifting alone compared to say clinging and remember Clinging is only to hold on not lift

 

 

It is not Blast with No Range' date=' because STR adds to HA damage. Lifting, grabbing, and throwing are worth more than the advantages Blast get, but STR adding to damage [i']is[/i]. This is obviously true since HKAs cost as much as RKA. If HA were a Blast with No Range -1/2, then HKA would be a RKA with No Range -1/2, but neither of them are.

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: Killing Damage in 6e

 

that is your opinion

I feel the advantages balance out and the all editions of the rules agree with me

 

the big thing is Str in how much you can lift does have a factor in how hard you can hit

you over complicate the game if you make lifting Str a separate things from damage Str

 

What is the worth of lifting alone compared to say clinging and remember Clinging is only to hold on not lift

 

When did I say I wanted to split it? I just want the cost of STR to reflect it.

 

Also, the cost of clinging depends on how hard you want to cling and how high your normal STR is, so I could really only compare them on a case by case basis. However, when I cost STR at 2-points I make Only to Lift a -1 lim, not sure how much that helps you though.

[Beast]

Re: Killing Damage in 6e

 

by wanting 2 different costs for Str and Blast

1 dc in each needs to cost the same or you nerf 1 archtype over and others

 

When did I say I wanted to split it? I just want the cost of STR to reflect it.

 

Also, the cost of clinging depends on how hard you want to cling and how high your normal STR is, so I could really only compare them on a case by case basis. However, when I cost STR at 2-points I make Only to Lift a -1 lim, not sure how much that helps you though.

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: Killing Damage in 6e

 

by wanting 2 different costs for Str and Blast

1 dc in each needs to cost the same or you nerf 1 archtype over and others

 

I've already stated that I don't believe Blast is STRs ranged counterpart, and I can build effective and fun Bricks with STR costed at two points, so I don't agree that it nerfs bricks. Unless that wasn't the archetype you meant.

[Beast]

Re: Killing Damage in 6e

 

build a brick with your Str cost and say adding in 1/2 end cost

then build a energy projector with just 1 blast at 1/2 end cost

 

now comes the fun part

give each of them the same stats,def,cv skills,etc..

see who runs out of points first

 

never said you could not build a fun character

but if you want to take that kind of handicap be my guest

 

and solve the problem of "well bricks start out with 10 pts more in their power set"

have all characters start with zero strength

 

 

I've already stated that I don't believe Blast is STRs ranged counterpart' date=' and I can build effective and fun Bricks with STR costed at two points, so I don't agree that it nerfs bricks. Unless that wasn't the archetype you meant.[/quote']

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Killing Damage in 6e

 

Why are you comparing Blast with STR? Blast's no-range equivalent is HA which has the advantage that STR adds to it. It is worth 5-points per DC' date=' but STR? It gives you everything HA does and then some, which is why they had to give HA a Hand-to-Hand lim even though it was already No Range. STR is still to cheap. If merely having an increased chance of going first is enough to push DEX's cost to 2 points then doing damage on top of the other abilities of STR is certainly enough for it to cost 2 points.[/quote']

 

I compare Blast to STR because HA is just limited STR. Also, as noted earlier, the "advantage" that HA has of getting boosted by STR isn't really an advantage on HA, it is an advantage on STR. Maybe you could look at it like this: Blast = STR, Ranged (+½), Base STR doesn't add (-¼), Only for damage (-¼). Six of one, half a dozen of the other, unless you quibble about the limitation values; in any event it isn't way off the mark.

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: Killing Damage in 6e

 

Well, I see the base cost for HA as Blast, STR Adds to Damage +1/2, No Range -1/2 because that's the way killing attacks are priced, but if the other way works for you I'm certainly not going to stop you from playing that way.

 

EDIT: Or the base cost for Blast could be HA, Ranged +1/2, STR Doesn't Add to Damage -1/2. Either way I think the base attack powers should cost 5-points per DC. Of course, I've had to spend over an hour with a player explaining why he couldn't put HtH Attack -1/4 on his HKA.

[Improbable]

Re: Killing Damage in 6e

 

that is your opinion

I feel the advantages balance out and the all editions of the rules agree with me

 

Once upon a time, all of the primitives agreed that The World was flat. That didn't make The World flat. Your argument fails. Use logic, man!

[prestidigitator]

Re: Killing Damage in 6e

 

IMO HA and Blast should merge just like HKA and RKA merged, and Str should only add to the HA and HKA versions, doing no damage completely by itself. 1d6 HA should be an Everyman ability. giving 2d6 hand-to-hand damage once Str has been added (and limiting to double the base attack, at least when considering th addition of Str alone).

 

Throwing and wielding objects can easily work with that: we just consider objects to provide their own HA (with Range Based on Strength in the right circumstances). When the damage an object will provide exceeds any other HA the character might have, it becomes worth it to pick up the object and use it as a weapon (adding Str to it's HA instead of your own). In fact, if your Str dice outweigh your own HA dice, picking up objects might be a good regular practice.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Killing Damage in 6e

 

Why are you comparing Blast with STR? Blast's no-range equivalent is HA which has the advantage that STR adds to it. It is worth 5-points per DC' date=' but STR? It gives you everything HA does and then some, which is why they had to give HA a Hand-to-Hand lim even though it was already No Range. STR is still to cheap. If merely having an increased chance of going first is enough to push DEX's cost to 2 points then doing damage on top of the other abilities of STR is certainly enough for it to cost 2 points.[/quote']

 

This depends on what one considers a Hand Attack to be. It should not be a Blast that STR adds to. STR does not add to Blasts. There is no mechanic to permit STR to add to a Blast. Blasts can be spread, but Hand Attacks cannot. A Hand Attack is STR that does nothing but HTH damage, not a Blast with no range that cannot be spread and is augmented by, or augments, STR.

 

In my view, there should be two levels of HA. At -1/4, it is "STR that does not lift", but has all of the other benefits of STR (Grabs, Shoves, etc.). At -1/2, it does only direct damage.

 

Well' date=' I see the base cost for HA as Blast, STR Adds to Damage +1/2, No Range -1/2 because that's the way killing attacks are priced, but if the other way works for you I'm certainly not going to stop you from playing that way.[/quote']

 

RKA's can be spread and HKA's cannot.

 

The solution for KA's is to eliminate HKA's entirely. You buy a Killing Attack for 15 points per 1d6, and it is Ranged. If you make it No Range, it costs 10 points per 1d6. STR does not add to either, just like it does not add to Blasts, Entangles, Drains or Ego Blasts. Eliminate the orphan mechanic of "STR adds to KA's" and everything else falls into place much better.

[Beast]

Re: Killing Damage in 6e

 

the base premis is that 1 DC either ranged or hand to hand is worth 5 pts

if you make Str cost more than Blast ,then you have nerfed Str and made Brick types cost more than any other archtypes to do the same job

 

where is the logic in that

 

it was a few of those primitives that went out and proved the world was not flat

in this case it is we are dealing in what 1 man(Steve Long)has defined how the physics of the Hero System work

if you want to change how it works in your game,be my guest and do so (I will most likely not be playing in your game)

I feel 2 pts per pt of Str is unfair

I would sell back the base str and just buy TK with fine manipulation for 10 pts more and then go with no range on it and get on with building my Brick

 

your dealing in the real world

get real this is fantasy

 

Once upon a time' date=' all of the primitives agreed that The World was flat. That didn't make The World flat. Your argument fails. Use logic, man![/quote']