Armour Piercing in Champions 6e

[Jhamin]

Re: Armour Piercing in Champions 6e

 

I've never seen Cap stop a runaway bus by standing in the road and letting it run into his shield. That's all I'm saying.

 

At the risk of going off topic, I think your point is a good one to look at from the other direction. As I see it this is an interesting case of pushing the suspension of disbelief to a degree that it breaks for some but not others. To wit:

 

We see Hulk punch a bus or a train & stop it cold all the time, and we see Cap's shield stop punches from the Hulk without a problem... so Bus < Hulk Punch < Cap's Shield.

 

But when Cap steps in front of a bus to stop it cold with his shield most folks immediately start thinking "but even if the shield can take it, wouldn't his legs break?" or something to that effect. Our minds reject the physics of it. Yet our minds don't register the impossibility of Cap stopping a can-crush-tank-armor Hulk Punch because our minds are used to the idea of one guy blocking another guy's punch and all the forces that would actually be involved are easier to let slide.

 

I think the "Jumping off a roof and landing on his shield" issue is exactly as impossible as him stopping a bus *or* stopping a punch with the force Hulk's punches must have. It just lays somewhere between the two in "believability" and therefore really bugs some folks and not others. Some folks can let the physics slide & not think about it too much while others have their suspension of disbelief broken immediately.

[dmjalund]

Re: Armour Piercing in Champions 6e

 

using the "falling on shield" as a model. If cap tried to use his shield to stop a bus, he would be propelled forward at the speed of the bus, just not damaged by the bus.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Armour Piercing in Champions 6e

 

using the "falling on shield" as a model. If cap tried to use his shield to stop a bus' date=' he would be propelled forward at the speed of the bus, just not damaged by the bus.[/quote']

 

This is true, although the way Cap's shield is supposed to work is by absorbing kinetic energy (of course if you absorb it, it has to go somewhere, either stored in the shield somehow, or shunted 'elsewhere') which is why "in theory" Cap can land on his shield at the end of a fall and not die.

 

If a bus hit the shield then, presumably, some or all of the kinetic energy would be absorbed by the shield, reducing the overall momentum of (Cap+bus), possibly to zero - but Jhamin makes an excellent point that it would be too much to swallow - it does not fir with our convept of Cap as he has developed over time.

 

In Hero you could potentially do it. The bus is an uncontrolled move through of a 35 STR object doing (say) 30mph, or 160 metres per turn. Assuming a bus is SPD 2, then it is doing 80 metres per phase.

 

Move through damage = 7 + (40/3) = 20d6

 

In Hero you take 20-2d6 KB, averages 26 metres.

 

If you are braced against that you would need 65 STR to succeed*. Cap doesn't have 65 STR, but Hulk does. Arguably either could survive the damage, but Cap would be knocked back (unless his shield included KB resistance - which it might) and Hulk wouldn't. Also Hulk is well over normal human mass and so will have some KB Resistance of his own.

 

Once more Hero triumphs in emulating the genre

 

 

 

*Of course STR is really a measure of how much force you can exert if properly braced. A bus hitting the Hulk on a horizontal surface would mean Hulk, even if he dug his toes into the concrete, would move because he would not be able to exert his full STR in that situation as he is not braced against something that can ithstand his full STR. Back to rubber physics...

[GAZZA]

Re: Armour Piercing in Champions 6e

 

Shifting series for a moment, I guess The Reflector from Wild Cards would need a lot of knockback resistance, which I hadn't considered before.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Armour Piercing in Champions 6e

 

using the "falling on shield" as a model. If cap tried to use his shield to stop a bus' date=' he would be propelled forward at the speed of the bus, just not damaged by the bus.[/quote']

 

Then why does the force of the Hulk's blows not knock him back, given he is delivering sufficient force to stop the bus, and even to send it hurtling in the other direction? If the force of the attack carried through the shield, shouldn't a punch from the Hulk landing on the shield shatter Cap's arms? This was used in an Avengers story some years back (the Wrecker injured Cap in this fashion) and widely criticized since there was no precedent for Cap being hurt by attacks deflected by his shield.

 

In reality, a shield is not used to absorb blows, but to deflect them, redirecting, rather than absorbing, much of the energy. But that is not how Cap's shield has historically been depicted in the comics - he directly blocks the force of the incoming attack, rather than deflecting it elsewhere. The attacker's fist, or energy meam, or what have you, hits the shield dead on, and stops. It seems we can accept that when the force being absorbed is similarly unrealistic, but not when the force being absorbed is realistic.

[GAZZA]

Re: Armour Piercing in Champions 6e

 

Is the shield just some super hard material, or is it a material that has some sort of kinetic energy negation power? The former would suggest, in Champions terms, that it would have no effect on knockback, but if I understand you generally speaking Cap is not thrown back when the Hulk hits him?

 

Possibly that's because it's a Block, I suppose, but then (again, in Hero terms) the defence of the shield is irrelevant (assuming it's an Unbreakable Focus).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Armour Piercing in Champions 6e

 

According to THIS:

 

• The shield is composed of the most durable known substance in the mainstream Marvel Universe. Despite numerous attempts, the Vibranium-Steel alloy has never been duplicated. The shield is not only nearly indestructible, but it absorbs a great deal of kinetic energy from impacts because of its Vibranium component. That is why the Hulk can pound it while Cap is holding it, without simply sending him into the ground or the air. Cap has also used the shield to cushion the force of impact when dropped from a high altitude by standing on the shield.
  
• The shield is in shape of a concave disc. The shield's shape makes it a superb throwing weapon, as it can cut through the air with minimal wind resistence. It is also able to bounce off solid objects, such as walls and floors, when struck on its edge, and can be ricocheted off of multiple surfaces. It can be caught after a single throw when angled properly. Edges are quite sharp, and never seem to dull.
  

[Jhamin]

Re: Armour Piercing in Champions 6e

 

According to THIS:

 

• The shield is composed of the most durable known substance in the mainstream Marvel Universe. Despite numerous attempts, the Vibranium-Steel alloy has never been duplicated. The shield is not only nearly indestructible, but it absorbs a great deal of kinetic energy from impacts because of its Vibranium component. That is why the Hulk can pound it while Cap is holding it, without simply sending him into the ground or the air. Cap has also used the shield to cushion the force of impact when dropped from a high altitude by standing on the shield.
  
• The shield is in shape of a concave disc. The shield's shape makes it a superb throwing weapon, as it can cut through the air with minimal wind resistence. It is also able to bounce off solid objects, such as walls and floors, when struck on its edge, and can be ricocheted off of multiple surfaces. It can be caught after a single throw when angled properly. Edges are quite sharp, and never seem to dull.
  

 

And of course these are mutually exclusive.

 

If the shield can absorb kinetic energy, you can't ricochet it. Things bounce because they absorb and then release the kinetic energy they incur when hitting an object. If Cap's shield just plain absorbs the energy without reflecting then when thrown against a solid surface it should just drop to the ground after it absorbs and negates all the energy it incurred hitting the object. There would be nothing left to propel it in another direction.

 

If it *did* absorb & then release the kinetic energy then when Hulk punches the shield a percentage of that force should be reflected back into Hulk's fist. We have never been given any indication that happens. (The Hulk would probably be fine, but if kinetic force is reflected guys like Batrok should have bones shatter when they kick the shield)

 

Once again, the reader *expects* the shield to bounce, so it does.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Armour Piercing in Champions 6e

 

Entangles are for the most part ordinary objects' date=' except for the double cost to Drain and Aid them in 6E.[/quote']

There's no double cost. Normal Body, PD, and ED effectively cost 2 points for purposes of Adjusting them too; they are considered defensive powers. That should be true of characters, Entangles, Barriers, and even, "normal objects." Draining Body is draining Body, and Steve's answer only confirms that from my perspective.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Armour Piercing in Champions 6e

 

It's comic book physics, guys. It doesn't have to make sense.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Armour Piercing in Champions 6e

 

This may or may not have been mentioned and may or may not be pertinent to where the thread has gone vs. where it started:

 

An AP attack is less effective against hardened defenses than a non-AP attack.

 

If you have a 10d6 normal attack, that is say 35 STUN, 10 BODY on average. Versus DEF 20 hardened defenses, 15 stun gets through. An AP attack of the same Active Points would be 8d6; 28 STUN, 8 BODY on average - versus DEF 20 hardened... 8 STUN.

 

I think that alone pretty well balances AP but could definitely be wrong.

[randian]

Re: Armour Piercing in Champions 6e

 

There's no double cost. Normal Body' date=' PD, and ED effectively cost 2 points for purposes of Adjusting them too; they are considered defensive powers.[/quote']

Then the passage in the description of Entangle is entirely redundant and unnecessary. Don't forget I specifically asked Steve if that passage was a redundant restatement of the "double cost for defensive characteristics" rule. He could have said "yes" and be done with it. Instead, his non-response leads me to conclude that said passage should be read to have an effect, namely that Entangle BODY is double cost before adjustment. You will note that no such passage is in the Barrier section of the rulebook.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Armour Piercing in Champions 6e

 

Then the passage in the description of Entangle is entirely redundant and unnecessary. Don't forget I specifically asked Steve if that passage was a redundant restatement of the "double cost for defensive characteristics" rule. He could have said "yes" and be done with it. Instead' date=' his non-response leads me to conclude that said passage should be read to have an effect, namely that Entangle BODY is double cost before adjustment. You will note that no such passage is in the Barrier section of the rulebook.[/quote']

Personally I think it has to do with the difference between the cost of Entangle and the cost of Body/PD/ED. It costs 5 points to add (an average of) 1 Body to an Entangle, and 5 points to add +1 rPD, +1 rED. Those are different from the normal costs of Body and rPD/rED. (And it isn't necessarily obvious that you can adjust an Entangle power use/instance's Body, rPD, and rED without mucking with the original power.) Note also that Barrier has the standard cost for Body and rPD/rED. I guess I would expect the Adjustment cost for rPD/rED to be 3 (double the usual 3/2 cost) instead of 2 (double the usual Non-Resistant PD/ED Characteristic cost of 1) though.

[GAZZA]

Re: Armour Piercing in Champions 6e

 

Then the passage in the description of Entangle is entirely redundant and unnecessary. Don't forget I specifically asked Steve if that passage was a redundant restatement of the "double cost for defensive characteristics" rule. He could have said "yes" and be done with it. Instead' date=' his non-response leads me to conclude that said passage should be read to have an effect, namely that Entangle BODY is double cost before adjustment. You will note that no such passage is in the Barrier section of the rulebook.[/quote']

Non-response seems to be the standard from Steve; it's why I pretty much ask my questions here instead.

[GAZZA]

Re: Armour Piercing in Champions 6e

 

This may or may not have been mentioned and may or may not be pertinent to where the thread has gone vs. where it started:

An AP attack is less effective against hardened defenses than a non-AP attack.

I think that alone pretty well balances AP but could definitely be wrong.

Yeah, I mentioned this a while back - my point was that the cheap cost of AP should imply a lot more hardened defences now, and I was asking if that tended to be the case (I don't have any of the new enemies books).

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Armour Piercing in Champions 6e

 

Personally I think it has to do with the difference between the cost of Entangle and the cost of Body/PD/ED. It costs 5 points to add (an average of) 1 Body to an Entangle' date=' and 5 points to add +1 rPD, +1 rED. Those are different from the normal costs of Body and rPD/rED. ([i']And[/i] it isn't necessarily obvious that you can adjust an Entangle power use/instance's Body, rPD, and rED without mucking with the original power.) Note also that Barrier has the standard cost for Body and rPD/rED. I guess I would expect the Adjustment cost for rPD/rED to be 3 (double the usual 3/2 cost) instead of 2 (double the usual Non-Resistant PD/ED Characteristic cost of 1) though.

 

it seems I can't spread Rep from my phone, so quoted for truth and thank you for pointing out what should have been obvious.