Definitional Points for a Champions campaign

[Epiphanis]

Re: Definitional Points for a Champions campaign

 

What I'm curious about, is why all the ground rules? What are you trying to accomplish? I get limiting attack powers and CV's, I even get CvK's, but skills, talents and perks? "filler" powers? Maybe if you let us behind the curtain so-to-speak it would make more sense.

 

A very fair question. When I started my last HERO campaign last year (which was the first I'd been in since 4th Edition) my only up-front limitation was a 12 DC cap on any attack powers. The submitted builds I got, retrospectively, were largely based around "exploits" that gave too much of an edge. In my naivete I approved some builds that I probably shouldn't have. I found that the ones that I did catch would often produce undesired debate/arguments when I asked for them to be changed.

 

The conclusion that I reached was that the point buy system the HERO operates under had traded away game balance for extreme versatility. As I started pulling apart the rules I began trying to house rule a systematic way to restore balance up front. I started with a piecemeal way of plugging specific exploits, but there were always more that I missed, and trying to catalog them quickly became too complex. So now I'm trying to develop a relatively simple set of rules that would circumvent the majority of overly-efficient exploits while maintaining a reasonable if decreased amount of flexibility.

[Checkmate]

Re: Definitional Points for a Champions campaign

 

A very fair question. When I started my last HERO campaign last year (which was the first I'd been in since 4th Edition) my only up-front limitation was a 12 DC cap on any attack powers. The submitted builds I got, retrospectively, were largely based around "exploits" that gave too much of an edge. In my naivete I approved some builds that I probably shouldn't have. I found that the ones that I did catch would often produce undesired debate/arguments when I asked for them to be changed.

 

The conclusion that I reached was that the point buy system the HERO operates under had traded away game balance for extreme versatility. As I started pulling apart the rules I began trying to house rule a systematic way to restore balance up front. I started with a piecemeal way of plugging specific exploits, but there were always more that I missed, and trying to catalog them quickly became too complex. So now I'm trying to develop a relatively simple set of rules that would circumvent the majority of overly-efficient exploits while maintaining a reasonable if decreased amount of flexibility.

I understand what you're trying to do, I'm not the guy to help you . I don't agree with it, and don't think it's going to solve your problems. The rest of post goes into the why's for my opinion, feel free to ignore if your mind is made up

 

The reason a lot of people play HERO is for its versatility, but artificially limiting that, is counter to the games core.

 

I think the real problem is the players you have. I would highly recommend trading them out, but here's your real problem: Exploiters are ALWAYS going to find the exploits. There is no real way to stop that, all your restrictive house rules are going to accomplish is limiting the people that don't exploit.

 

If you can't get new players, or make them see how damaging it is to a game, use it against them. Give all the villains the exact same builds. When you mop the floor with the PC's just smile and thank them for all the "cool" ideas. Then ask if they want to re-think their builds or continue to have the same exploits used against them.

[sinanju]

Re: Definitional Points for a Champions campaign

 

I understand what you're trying to do, I'm not the guy to help you . I don't agree with it, and don't think it's going to solve your problems. The rest of post goes into the why's for my opinion, feel free to ignore if your mind is made up

 

The reason a lot of people play HERO is for its versatility, but artificially limiting that, is counter to the games core.

 

I think the real problem is the players you have. I would highly recommend trading them out, but here's your real problem: Exploiters are ALWAYS going to find the exploits. There is no real way to stop that, all your restrictive house rules are going to accomplish is limiting the people that don't exploit.

 

If you can't get new players, or make them see how damaging it is to a game, use it against them. Give all the villains the exact same builds. When you mop the floor with the PC's just smile and thank them for all the "cool" ideas. Then ask if they want to re-think their builds or continue to have the same exploits used against them.

 

Alternatively, veto builds that strike you as exploitive--and if things slip past you, insist that they be changed. I spent many years happily playing with a roomful of rules-lawyering powergamers, taking turns being GM in various campaigns. We all learned to pat the players on the head ("Yes, you're very clever--but you can't play that in my game"), but firmly refuse to let unbalancing builds go. We also learned to be calm--but firm--when we discovered we'd overlooked something and required the player to fix it or play a new character. (Of course, as we were all rules-lawyering powergamers, we all also knew that the GM can win any ****ing contest the players care to start--he's not limited by build points. So we took GMs' suggestions seriously.)

[csyphrett]

Re: Definitional Points for a Champions campaign

 

You could build the characters yourself to your own specifications. It still won't stop a good tactical guy from doing things you don't want him to do.

CES

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Definitional Points for a Champions campaign

 

Not trying to shift your position, as you've made it clear, but this thread has caused me to clarify my mental position on the CVK issue and I thought it worth posting.

 

I've come to realize that I don't like mandatory CVK's because I want characters to have their own motivations, as I mentioned before, but additionally, the reason why making them mandatory sticks in my craw is this: They are an artifact of nothing more than oppressive fear driven politics and the era in which the manipulators of mass society scapegoated comics to further their own agenda. Validating the assault on the comics industry during the McCarthy/HUAC era would be as vile to me as validating "Separate but Equal", "Women are frail and fragile flowers" or "The Patriot Act is for our own good" in a game.

 

That said, it's still your game, I just thought I'd explain myself.

 

 

Oh, and to the current topic, I'm with Sinaju. No complicated scheme will prevent exploiting the system. That has to evolve with the increased understanding of the rules and metarules, specifically just because you CAN break the game doesn't mean you SHOULD. Until this fact sinks in, I'd go with something similar to the "One person cuts the cake, the other chooses" solution... perhaps tell 'em outright that you'll allow a certain level of powergaming builds as long as they aren't abusive, but you reserve the right to VETO and REPLACE any power that proves abusive, even after play begins.

 

Pure toolkit pointbuy systems require a measure of self control among the players, at least to a common denominator level.

[Matt Holck]

Re: Definitional Points for a Champions campaign

 

well (speaking of common denominators)

limitations are limited to -1 in one of the games I play in

 

I think I want a 40 base point denominator with any expenditure beyond at times two cost

nnd and avld 30 base points

 

Well it's a difference between WHAT you play and HOW you play. A campaign around high school mutants is different than requiring a psych lim at the total level. Players don't like to be bound in that way. It restricts their role playing ability. But it's your campaign. If you're going to have the CvK' date=' then you should make some decisions about mental powers and how advantages affect AP totals. And don't forget unusual powers too. Since mental attacks don't usually do Body, they would work will in your campaign. Same with drains and NNDs. I don't know your players but I wouldn't be surprised if you had more than one mentalist and one who specialized in support (drains CVs, heals, barrier, etc) and few frontline combatants.[/quote']

 

 

having a strong code versus kill can also add to role playing

in a heavy combat game

a character takes and debates actions based on that code

[Epiphanis]

Re: Definitional Points for a Champions campaign

 

Validating the assault on the comics industry during the McCarthy/HUAC era would be as vile to me as validating "Separate but Equal", "Women are frail and fragile flowers" or "The Patriot Act is for our own good" in a game. [...] That said, it's still your game, I just thought I'd explain myself.

 

Thanks for sharing that explanation! See, before I just thought you didn't want to play a game run in my style because you wouldn't find it fun. Now you've made clear that it is also morally repugnant and you find me vile and reactionary. So glad we avoided that little misunderstanding!

[Matt Holck]

Re: Definitional Points for a Champions campaign

 

Don't Panic

the repugnancy gene has been isolated

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Definitional Points for a Champions campaign

 

Thanks for sharing that explanation! See' date=' before I just thought you didn't want to play a game run in my style because you wouldn't find it fun. Now you've made clear that it is also morally repugnant and you find me vile and reactionary. So glad we avoided that little misunderstanding![/quote']

 

Honestly, I'm lamenting the fact that the damage done by the assault on the comics industry is so deep that even it's fans don't see it. Don't take it personal, it's just lasting signs of old damage to geekdom.

[Matt Holck]

Re: Definitional Points for a Champions campaign

 

well

my 2 champions binders some 20 years of history were stolen from my car

shortly after I quit my military research job