Definitional Points for a Champions campaign

[Alverant]

Re: Definitional Points for a Champions campaign

 

I'm not really interested in debating the moral issues of requiring a Code versus Killing (although if locking down 20 of the 75 complication points raises mechanical problem I'm unaware of I'd appreciate a heads up). As a GM' date=' I could require that all the PCs be mutants, or teenage high school students, or normal costumed vigilantes with no actual superpowers, and nobody would bat an eye about it. Yet somehow a mandate that the PCs not be killers requires justification? It's a parameter of the campaign. If you can't have fun playing a character who doesn't kill, this just isn't a game for you.[/quote']

 

Well it's a difference between WHAT you play and HOW you play. A campaign around high school mutants is different than requiring a psych lim at the total level. Players don't like to be bound in that way. It restricts their role playing ability. But it's your campaign. If you're going to have the CvK, then you should make some decisions about mental powers and how advantages affect AP totals. And don't forget unusual powers too. Since mental attacks don't usually do Body, they would work will in your campaign. Same with drains and NNDs. I don't know your players but I wouldn't be surprised if you had more than one mentalist and one who specialized in support (drains CVs, heals, barrier, etc) and few frontline combatants.

[assault]

Re: Definitional Points for a Champions campaign

 

I don't know your players but I wouldn't be surprised if you had more than one mentalist and one who specialized in support (drains CVs' date=' heals, barrier, etc) and few frontline combatants.[/quote']

 

I'd be rather surprised by such an extreme reaction, but I admit my own character would have non-lethal options.

 

I think what people are trying to get at is that they don't want their characters to be messed over beyond a certain point.

 

Complications are, or should be, things that players want to affect their characters. Mandatory complications are things that they may not want to affect their character so strongly. (Obviously there is a certain level of acceptance in their willingness to play in the game in the first place.)

[Alverant]

Re: Definitional Points for a Champions campaign

 

I'd be rather surprised by such an extreme reaction' date=' but I admit my own character would have non-lethal options.[/quote']

Key word is "options". My armored hero character has an AVLD Power Defense stun cannon and an overpowered meson cannon (RKA).

 

I don't know if I'd call it an "extreme" reaction, but in my current campaign one of the players talked about making a utility character who didn't do damage (or much damage) but would assist other characters in combat. I could see doing that as a change of pace and seeing what you can do with the system.

 

I should also point out in that campaign our first kill was by someone who had CvK total. She used her flash power against a Viper helicopter pilot and he crashed into a building. To this day (almost eight years later) she insists that it wasn't her fault.

[LA Singletary]

Re: Definitional Points for a Champions campaign

 

So am I to understand that meaning of the following is that a character can have attacks far in excess of 60 AP if I limit my SPD to 5 and total defenses to 30 character points?

 

 

3. Purchases are limited as follows.

 

a. Any number of Attack Powers may be purchased, but any individual Attack Power (not Power Framework) is subject to a limitation of a maximum of 60 Active Points (APs). Note that with HTH and HKA powers, APs invested in STR are counted together with those of the power towards this maximum. [Limited: reduce to maximum 40 AP/Attack Power.]

 

b. SPD is subject to a maximum value of 9. [Limited: reduce to maximum value of 5]

 

c. Defense Powers: This category includes all Powers ending in “Defense” as well as Damage Reduction, Damage Negation, Invisibility and Desolidification. Total Character Points spent on such is limited to 40 Character Points. [Limited: reduce to maximum 30 Character Points]

 

4. With respect to the limitations set forth for the three categories in #3 above, the player may ignore one of the three at the cost of accepting the limited version given in brackets for the other two.

[Epiphanis]

Re: Definitional Points for a Champions campaign

 

So am I to understand that meaning of the following is that a character can have attacks far in excess of 60 AP if I limit my SPD to 5 and total defenses to 30 character points?

 

Yes, although judging from feedback I will be adjusting the figures, particularly SPD. The idea would be to create a "glass cannon" with great offense but pathetic defense. A simple exploit in the Hero point system without definitional points would be to build a single overwhelmingly powerful attack and dump all the rest of your character points into defense. Do you think this solution is too unbalanced?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Definitional Points for a Champions campaign

 

How would your system deal with characters that don't have static power levels (some attacks and defense or bonus to either in a Multipower or VPP)?

The main issue being that they can hit the attack and defense caps but not at the same time.

[Epiphanis]

Re: Definitional Points for a Champions campaign

 

How would your system deal with characters that don't have static power levels (some attacks and defense or bonus to either in a Multipower or VPP)?

The main issue being that they can hit the attack and defense caps but not at the same time.

 

The caps chosen at the start remain in place; you can't take a power in a framework that would push you over the limit. I may raise the limit incrementally with experience.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Definitional Points for a Champions campaign

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]37606[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]37609[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]37607[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]37610[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]37608[/ATTACH]

The caps chosen at the start remain in place; you can't take a power in a framework that would push you over the limit. I may raise the limit incrementally with experience.

 

So this group would not fit under your cap then eh?

(Note DEX, SPD, END, STUN and base Defenses as well as Defenses that can be increased and their END cost)

[Fireg0lem]

Re: Definitional Points for a Champions campaign

 

I'm working on the assumption that 60 AP is mathematically the exact same thing as 12 DC' date=' as the 6th Ed rules define a DC as equal to AP/5 (6th Ed, Vol. 2, p. 97), counting APs from all advantages, not just damage-increasing ones. I think you are advocating dice of damage based cap (i.e., 12d6 for standard damage, 4d6 for killing) but I'm not sure this is what you mean. Could you clarify?[/quote']

 

No, you only count DC-increasing advantages when determining DCs (hence the name ) See 6e2 p97, but read the section "Damage Classes of Advantaged Powers."

 

Incidentally, I note the one thing you have no restrictions on is CVs.

[LA Singletary]

Re: Definitional Points for a Champions campaign

 

No, you only count DC-increasing advantages when determining DCs (hence the name ) See 6e2 p97, but read the section "Damage Classes of Advantaged Powers."

 

Incidentally, I note the one thing you have no restrictions on is CVs.

 

I too noticed that there is no limit on CVs. And was it stated previously in this thread that Non-resistant PD & ED were not subject to the 40 point defensive cap? (I was not sure if I read that correctly)

 

Based on the 60 AP rule, does this mean that I could achieve a 70 STR (14d6) ie base 10 + 60 points of STR?

 

If the bit about Strength were true, my leaning would be to take the unlimited defense with the 40 AP Attack power Limits and the 5 SPD. Crank up to a 50 STR with loads of Defense and play a more classic brick. I have always favored survivability over raw power.

 

I am very curious to see what you work out.

[Epiphanis]

Re: Definitional Points for a Champions campaign

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]37606[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]37609[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]37607[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]37610[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]37608[/ATTACH]

 

So this group would not fit under your cap then eh?

(Note DEX, SPD, END, STUN and base Defenses as well as Defenses that can be increased and their END cost)

 

No way.

[Epiphanis]

Re: Definitional Points for a Champions campaign

 

No, you only count DC-increasing advantages when determining DCs (hence the name ) See 6e2 p97, but read the section "Damage Classes of Advantaged Powers."

 

Incidentally, I note the one thing you have no restrictions on is CVs.

 

You are right, and I'm embarassed I got that wrong even after looking up the rule.

[Epiphanis]

Re: Definitional Points for a Champions campaign

 

I am very curious to see what you work out.

 

So am I. Its the last thing to do before recruiting and I can't quite work out the house rules to my satisfaction. There is a lot of fuzzy logic and judgment calls in the Hero System.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Definitional Points for a Champions campaign

 

No way.

 

 

You are very likely going end up with players more worried about building to the caps than building to their character concept.

 

 

Hard caps aren't even as hard as you might think....

 

How will you handle damage from Martial Maneuvers?

Say you have a martial artist character with a 20 STR, +4 Martial Damage Classes and an Offensive Strike (+4 DC).

Is he at the cap?

 

What about a brick with a 60 STR or an Energy Projector with a 12d6 Blast?

Are they at the cap?

The free Haymaker maneuver allow both to do 16d6 without pushing.

(the martial artist gets no benefit from the maneuver as it can't be combined with the Offensive Strike).

[LA Singletary]

Re: Definitional Points for a Champions campaign

 

I suppose it breaks down to roles.

 

I mean some teams seem tactically sound while others just don't. I am thinking of the following combat roles:

 

Brick (Thing, Hulk, Colossus etc..)

Melee Combat Specialist (Wolverine, Spider-Man, Batman etc)

Blasters/Ranged Combat Specialist (Human Torch, Cyclops, Green Arrow)

Wizards/Utility Specialist (Green Lantern, Dr. Strange/Fate, Forge)

Defensive Specialist (Invisible Woman, Justice, Green Lantern,)

Speedster (Flash, Nova, Quicksilver etc..)

 

This does not cover the other roles associated with most super hero teams

 

Leader

Scientist

Diplomat

Detective

Infiltrator

Techie

 

 

While you are tempering your rules remember that character concept should win out. Every player wants their character to perform adequately in their chosen niche.

[Epiphanis]

Re: Definitional Points for a Champions campaign

 

You are very likely going end up with players more worried about building to the caps than building to their character concept.

 

They will do that regardless, because that is what gamers do. It is exactly what you did in building your 400 pt JLers. I don't even remotely consider it a failing that a new PC wouldn't be able to do everything that Superman can do.

[LA Singletary]

Re: Definitional Points for a Champions campaign

 

They will do that regardless' date=' because that is what gamers do. It is exactly what you did in building your 400 pt JLers. I don't even remotely consider it a failing that a new PC wouldn't be able to do everything that Superman can do.[/quote']

 

I agree 100%. Gamers are minmaxers by nature. Good gamers minmax to a concept, while creating a character that is as entertaining to their GM and fellow players as it is to them. The hope is that the good gamers will strive for concept and style over mechanics..ie character before powers.

 

Bring on the next round of revisions.

[Epiphanis]

Re: Definitional Points for a Champions campaign

 

I've revised my rules. Here is the second draft, up for commentary:

1. The PC must be built with 400 standard character points with 75 matching Complications.

2. All expenditures are subject to a “standard cap”. Except for a single exception, no individual characteristic, power, skill, perk or talent may be purchased above this maxima point.

a. All Attack Powers (6E1 144) except the STR characteristic have a standard cap of 60 Active Points (APs).

b. All other individual powers, skills, talents, perks, and characteristics have a standard cap of 30 APs.

3. Each PC may select one (and ONLY one) characteristic or power (but not skill, perk or talent) and make it the exception to the standard cap. For this exception:

a. The characteristic or power may be bought up to the “hard cap” of 75 APs invested. This hard cap applies to both Attack Powers and the general category of all other powers and characteristics.

b. Although the power or characteristic may be purchased above its standard cap point, the Real Point cost of the power for each AP above that point is doubled. Thus, using this exception to purchase an unmodified characteristic would cost 30 Real Points for the first 30 APs and 90 Real Points for the next 45 APs. For example, it would be possible to buy the maximum possible unmodified SPD of 9 for an investment of 110 character points.

4. For purposes of calculating APs spent:

a. The APs purchased for all “compound” powers (6E1 119) are totaled; the total may not exceed the lowest of the limitations applicable to any component power.

b. The APs for all Linked powers (6E1 383) have the APs of their respective greater powers added to them. If the APs of the greater power already reach the limit for the Linked power, the Linked power may not be purchased.

c. STR is treated as a characteristic, not an attack power, and so its standard limit is at a 30 AP investment (a value of 40 STR if unadvantaged). This calculation is unaffected by the purchase of HTH or HKA Powers.

d. However, both HTH and HKA Attack Powers add the APs invested in STR, plus 10 (for the free starting value of STR). Thus a character with unadvantaged 40 STR could normally purchase only 20 APs of either a HTH or an HKA power. A character having used an exception to purchase more than 50 APs of STR (e.g., an unadvantaged STR of 60 or more) cannot purchase any HTH or HKA powers.

e. For purposes of determining the AP limits, APs purchased for the characteristic Endurance and the power Endurance Reserve are added together and subject to the limits of the characteristic. Thus, a character could retain the 20 “free points” of END and purchase a 30 AP Endurance Reserve; or could buy 30 AP of END (a total of 170 END with the free points) and no Endurance Reserve; or invest a total of 30 APs in a combination of END and Endurance Reserve.

f. For purposes of determining AP limits, the APs of all defensive powers (or portions of defensive powers) applicable to a particular category of damage (physical, energy and mental) are totaled together, including the PD and ED characteristics for physical and mental damage respectively. Thus, the APs purchased for PD are added to those purchased for Resistant Damage, Damage Negation and Damage Reduction to the extent each applies to physical damage; likewise the APs purchased for ED would be added to the APs of those three powers as applied to energy damage. A PC adhering to the standard cap could buy 30 APs of Resistant Protection for each of physical and energy damage, but could not use all 60 APs for one or the other. Likewise, a PC who purchases a full 30 APs of PD could not purchase any Resistant Protection, Damage Negation or Damage Reduction that is applicable to physical damage. A PC may use his one exception to apply a hard cap of 75 APs which may be distributed between the different defensive powers applied to a single category of damage, but only the first 30 APs purchased are at their normal cost; the next 45 cost double Real Points.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]37701[/ATTACH]

[LA Singletary]

Re: Definitional Points for a Champions campaign

 

So any more details on the game itself? I know it is not quite January 2011 yet but I thought I might ask anyways.

 

Thank you,

 

LA Singletary

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: Definitional Points for a Champions campaign

 

I would regard mandatory major Psychological Complications (not just CvK) as a dealbreaker for participating in a campaign. Standard limits on the tangible character build, or GM approval to make sure that character concept fits the tone of the campaign, sure. But this smacks of the GM handing me a script telling me what my character will do and say, and being someone else's puppet has absolutely no appeal. Write fiction if you want to have that level of control over all the characters in a story.

[Epiphanis]

Re: Definitional Points for a Champions campaign

 

So any more details on the game itself? I know it is not quite January 2011 yet but I thought I might ask anyways.

 

Thank you,

 

LA Singletary

 

I'm working on a website which will post soon. In a nutshell: 400 point standard superheroic campaign, based in Millenium City/Champions Universe. Intentionally a very 'vanilla' superhero team premise with no particular apparent hook; diverse origins and powers encouraged.

[Epiphanis]

Re: Definitional Points for a Champions campaign

 

I would regard mandatory major Psychological Complications (not just CvK) as a dealbreaker for participating in a campaign.

 

Hey, I didn't even include that in this revised post! Okay, the requirement is still in existence, I just didn't want to get into another debate about it; I'm far more interested in the mechanical aspects of my limitations system than in engaging in pointless argument about my stance regarding Code versus Killing. To paraphrase what I've already said: I already know it will be a dealbreaker for a lot of potential players, and that's completely golden to me. If after some recruitment too few people seem willing to abide by my campaign parameters, I can and will GM something else entirely.

[Tech]

Re: Definitional Points for a Champions campaign

 

To me, the 20 pt CvK is fine. A lot of you don't like it/are cautious and that's okay. He's staying with it and that's what he wants his campaign to have. It's not wrong, anymore than saying he wants the play baseball and others saying he should play basketball.

 

The campaign limits to me are secondary to me, Epiphanis. If I were to join your campaign as a player, the first thing I'd want to know is what the campaign is like: what the world is like and are there any changes to history... is history even the same? That sort of thing. Is it Golden Age, Silver Age and so on. After finding out that stuff, then I'd be interested in what the campaign limits are and work within those. So, what is the campaign like? I'm curious.

[Epiphanis]

Re: Definitional Points for a Champions campaign

 

DeadlyUematsu is starting his own campaign using Maptool that is similar to what I want to do. Rather than divide my time, I've decided to join his campaign as a player rather than run my own for the time being. After that has resolved I'll start working on The Fellowship again.

[Checkmate]

Re: Definitional Points for a Champions campaign

 

What I'm curious about, is why all the ground rules? What are you trying to accomplish? I get limiting attack powers and CV's, I even get CvK's, but skills, talents and perks? "filler" powers? Maybe if you let us behind the curtain so-to-speak it would make more sense.