Custom Limitation

[Fearghus]

My current campaign is in 5ER and since this question is specifically about this campaign I am interested in answers that apply mainly to 5th ed, but if a 6th discussion breaks out I am interested in that too even though it may not help my immediate situation.

 

OK so here is what my player wants to do.

 

He is a mentalist and wants to build a transfer of ego. the idea is that anyone with a high ego is too easily making the break out rolls and my player is whining about it (but that is a whole other story)...

 

He is also whining that Transfer is overpriced and has come up with an idea for a custom limitation he wants to apply to make the cost more reasonable. Basically the limitation would be something like "only drains ego down to 10"

 

I wasn't thinking that I would give that a very high value since the "limitation" is the make it not work against the people it would least effect. If you have an ego of 10 then you already know a mentalist is going to mess you up, so making the power not work against characters like that is just point stacking in my opinion.

 

So... What would you value such a limitation at?

 

As I am sure you can tell by the tone of this post I am not really excited about this power. mainly because I think transfer is expensive for a reason. It both weakens your opponent and strengthens your character at the same time. Combine that with the idea that you limit the power by making it so that it only affects opponents you are likely to use the power against and not against the people you are not likely to use it against isn't really a limitation at all.

 

Anyway I appreciate any input you guys will have. I hope (as you normally do) you shed light on this situation and allow me to make a good decision for my game.

 

Thanks in advance.

[pinecone]

Re: Custom Limitation

 

My current campaign is in 5ER and since this question is specifically about this campaign I am interested in answers that apply mainly to 5th ed, but if a 6th discussion breaks out I am interested in that too even though it may not help my immediate situation.

 

OK so here is what my player wants to do.

 

He is a mentalist and wants to build a transfer of ego. the idea is that anyone with a high ego is too easily making the break out rolls and my player is whining about it (but that is a whole other story)...

 

He is also whining that Transfer is overpriced and has come up with an idea for a custom limitation he wants to apply to make the cost more reasonable. Basically the limitation would be something like "only drains ego down to 10"

 

I wasn't thinking that I would give that a very high value since the "limitation" is the make it not work against the people it would least effect. If you have an ego of 10 then you already know a mentalist is going to mess you up, so making the power not work against characters like that is just point stacking in my opinion.

 

So... What would you value such a limitation at?

 

As I am sure you can tell by the tone of this post I am not really excited about this power. mainly because I think transfer is expensive for a reason. It both weakens your opponent and strengthens your character at the same time. Combine that with the idea that you limit the power by making it so that it only affects opponents you are likely to use the power against and not against the people you are not likely to use it against isn't really a limitation at all.

 

Anyway I appreciate any input you guys will have. I hope (as you normally do) you shed light on this situation and allow me to make a good decision for my game.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

I'm not seeing this as much of a lim...maybe -1/4? Perhaps he'd be happy with a supress or dispell? Heck if transfer is "too expensive" why not drain...it's 50% cheaper, right?

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Custom Limitation

 

I don't think this would be much of a limitation at all. Maybe 1/4.

[Ice9]

Re: Custom Limitation

 

I'd agree - it's worth some limitation, because he can't totally shut down people with it, but not very much.

 

Since more Ego isn't going to make his mental powers any stronger, he could use a Drain just as effectively. Or for that matter, Change Environment to penalize Ego rolls.

Also, is he trying to go straight to +30 control? That's going to be difficult without a big lead on the target. If he has mental illusions, he can achieve similar results much more easily; it just takes a bit longer. For instance:

* Mind Control: Attack your friend - +30 required

* Mental Illusions: That's not your friend, it's a zombie - +10 required

* Mind Control: Attack the zombie! - +10, or maybe even +0.

[dmjalund]

Re: Custom Limitation

 

the limitation (because its Transfer) is that he can only "power up" if he can access a High EGO individual

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Custom Limitation

 

He is a mentalist and wants to build a transfer of ego. the idea is that anyone with a high ego is too easily making the break out rolls and my player is whining about it (but that is a whole other story)...

 

He is also whining that Transfer is overpriced and has come up with an idea for a custom limitation he wants to apply to make the cost more reasonable. Basically the limitation would be something like "only drains ego down to 10"

 

I wasn't thinking that I would give that a very high value since the "limitation" is the make it not work against the people it would least effect. If you have an ego of 10 then you already know a mentalist is going to mess you up, so making the power not work against characters like that is just point stacking in my opinion.

 

Let's think about how effective the power could be without the limitation. I'm assuming a 60 AP power (4d6 of 5e Transfer), so an average of 14 character points, or 7 Ego. Against a target with a 10 Ego, and assuming no limitation, two hits means the target can no longer take any actions of his own volition without rolling an 8- roll every phase (as he's at -4 EGO). Another two attacks once any target hits 10 EGO has the same result. And he can push them further down the chain.

 

If all he wants to do is reduce the target's breakout rolls, there are less expensive options. An EGO drain has the same cost as a Transfer with a -1/2 limitation. Does the character really need to pump up his own EGO (most mentalists already have a pretty good Ego)? A Change Environment could reduce Breakout rolls, and would manifest with an area of effect. For 40 points, I bet he could reduce breakout rolls for all opponents within reasonable combat range significantly. Extra dice of mental attacks "only to reduce breakout roll" would also be quite effective in this regard. Why not slap the Ultimate Mentalist -1/2 limitation that makes the power effective only against classes of mind (a limitation all his powers imposing breakout rolls likely already possesses).

 

The other question I would have to ask, outside costing the power, is whether the player has a legitimate grievance arising from breakout rolls. How often does he get a significant result in combat? Are the assigned levels of effect, combined with breakout rolls, making the character's attack powers markedly less useful than his teammates' Punches, Blasts and NND's? Often, the mentalist finds their more subtle powers are useless because the GM rarely or never allows them to have a significant impact, so they end up using nothing but Ego Attacks, since only direct STUN damage has any real impact on their opponents.

 

If the GM is not comfortable with Mind Control, Mental Illusions, etc., then prohibit them, but too often the GM allows the power, then uses in-game judgments like making every effect that goes beyond "hit me as hard as you can" a +30 effect, buys mental defense for every significant NPC and/or buys up Ego to enhance breakout rolls for everybody. In my view, allowing a player to spend 60 points on 12d6 Mind Control is contracting with the player that those 60 points will have as much in-game balance as a 60 STR or a 12d6 Blast. Is the player getting that value for his points, or is combat for him a series of "I rolled X effect" "Not enough" "I rolled Y effect" "It works - oh, he made his breakout roll"?

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Custom Limitation

 

I might allow a -¼ limitation for this, but the description of the power sounds like the player wants the limitation to save points, not because it inherently represents how the power really works, so before I would give any limitation the player would have to be able to explain to me why the mentalist can Transfer high EGOs but not low ones.

[Tasha]

Re: Custom Limitation

 

Perhaps he should work on his finesse, Going for +20 and +30 rolls guarantees easy break outs. Going for +10 or ego +0 is much harder.

 

The Limit is cheese, but isn't figured on how much more powerful it makes a character. It is figured on how much it limits the power. As we learned in this post http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/83750-Not-Usable-Without-Ultraviolet-Light....?p=2121042#post2121042. A limit that limits the power 1/4 of the time is worth a -1/4 limit, one that limits the power by 1/3 is worth -1/2, and one that limits the power half the time is worth a -1.

 

Most NPC's combatants don't bother to have more than 10 Ego, though that number can get higher in games with PC Mentalists. So I would say that it would be worth no more than a -1/2 limit as it would shut down the power only 1/3 of the time and doesn't allow the PC to totally 0 out a target's ego. If the VAST majority of like point combatants have ego 10, then it might be worth a -1, but probably not.

 

The character might be better off buying a couple of dice of effect with -1/2 only to make break out rolls worse.

[Fearghus]

Re: Custom Limitation

 

OK alot of people are asking about background on the player. I have suggested some of the fixes that you have suggested here to the player. Basically he is used to playing a blaster so if his powers aren't working he is thinking they aren't powerful enough. He tends to go strait for the gusto with his mental powers mind control with a command like "attack your friends" and is disappointed when even mooks occasionally get the break out roll, and because there are 2 mentalists in the group MOST of my major bad guys have good egos to help them defend against that double assault mental attacks they are gonna get. So the player we are talking about does a mind control command on the main villain ordering him to basically foil his own plot, and the player is surprised when the villain fairly routinely passes the break out roll of it. I have suggested that if he give a command like "run away" he will be much more effective. I like the change environment idea... I might suggest that to him.

 

Thanks for all the replies

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Custom Limitation

 

Here's an alternative idea for your player if he is looking to boost his power.

 

Let him buy extra dice of Mind Control, or use an Aid, with the limitation it requires a Telepathy attack at EGO+10 or better to represent the idea he has scanned his opponent's mind and found some weakness to exploit. He might actually have to make the Telepathy attack, or you could just treat is as a Required Roll that goes off automatically with the power (but he wouldn't gain any actual info in that case).

 

If he doesn't have Telepathy, he could base the skill roll on SS: Psychology or Power Skill: Mentalist Tricks, or a PER with Mental Senses, or whatever is appropriate. He might even say that the extra dice only work on second and subsequent attacks on the same target, the idea here being that the first attack let him size up the opponent's mind so subsequent attacks can be better.