Superheat metal

[Nolgroth]

Re: Superheat metal

 

As an aside, I've halved the ED of Metal Armor. Cold, fire, and lightning are all going to quickly bypass the defense.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Superheat metal

 

If I were running a game I'd be extremely unlikely to give a character the benefit of ED granted by the metal armor that's currently heating up and doing damage to him in the first place.

 

That seems like an effect of the attack, not the defense, so I would be extremely unlikely to grant the advantage of bypassing that ED due to special effects, and instead require the attack to carry an extra costs for this benefit not shared by most other attacks. Now, I could see a case that this is a limitation of Real Armor, but that still gives this type of SFX a pretty big advantage over other SFX in bypassing those armor defenses. Should a character who defines his magical armor as having +1 PD and +1 ED vs magical attacks due to an anti-magic enchantment as bouncing your attack entirely because your attack is magic directly targeting the armor, or should he have to pay for this added benefit from his special effects?

 

Most metal armor also has some form of padding underneath - should the character get extra defenses because the heat isn't in direct contact with his flesh?

 

I thought you got the defense in following Segments until the cumulative damage total exceeds the defense?

 

Correct - with 12 defenses, it would take 4 iterations of your power (at 3 BOD standard effect) before the target starts taking BOD.

 

If you're treating real armor limitation as including a time requirement to put on or remove, I think the power as you describe (especially doing damage every segment) is a guaranteed death sentence for many characters, as it's going to take more than 30 seconds to divest of heavy metal armor. And, of course, the spellcaster's allies are probably at a substantial advantage if their opponents toss away their armor, shields, etc.

 

The only way I would allow a power of this nature is if it was designed in a fashion that it did not negate the effectiveness of any opponent relying on metal armor or weaponry (which would mean less damage, and slower applied), or if the game rarely featured such opposition.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Superheat metal

 

If you're treating real armor limitation as including a time requirement to put on or remove, I think the power as you describe (especially doing damage every segment) is a guaranteed death sentence for many characters, as it's going to take more than 30 seconds to divest of heavy metal armor. And, of course, the spellcaster's allies are probably at a substantial advantage if their opponents toss away their armor, shields, etc.

 

The only way I would allow a power of this nature is if it was designed in a fashion that it did not negate the effectiveness of any opponent relying on metal armor or weaponry (which would mean less damage, and slower applied), or if the game rarely featured such opposition.

 

That's a fair point. Perhaps I should tone it down by removing the AoE, so that only one target can be chosen at a time.

 

However- is it a power that negates the effectiveness of an opponent relying on metal armor so objectionable, as long as sufficient points are paid for it? That is the point of Advantage of Armor Piercing, after all.

[casualplayer]

Re: Superheat metal

 

Sounds to me like a tiny RKA (1 pip or 1/2,) Area Effect, Continuous that only affects those in possession of metal touching flesh and Triggered by those who don't relinquish that metal. Sucks to be those strapped into their metal. Pick up something metal in the radius and trigger the spell. I would say mail might still scorch someone through padding but thick leather, like a smith's apron, should be sufficient protection against this, if I were a GM approving the spell.

 

Or I suppose you could use the Covered rules where everyone in the radius is assumed to have been "hit" but is only damaged if they satisfy the requirements of having metal touching flesh.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Superheat metal

 

Very interesting. Hm.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Superheat metal

 

That's a fair point. Perhaps I should tone it down by removing the AoE, so that only one target can be chosen at a time.

 

However- is it a power that negates the effectiveness of an opponent relying on metal armor so objectionable, as long as sufficient points are paid for it? That is the point of Advantage of Armor Piercing, after all.

 

Emphasis added.

 

Well, the first step to me is that this indicates the power should be expensive. If you want it to ignore metal armor, pay the points to make it ignore metal armor. I'll also note that you weren't the one suggesting that ignoring metal armor just be a free benefit of the power.

 

The second step is whether such a power will be unbalancing in the game. As a GM, I would certainly reject a power that would be unbalancing in my game, but I'd have to be running or playing in the specific game to decide whether your proposed power would, in fact, be unbalancing.

[Roth]

Re: Superheat metal

 

The effect you are going for is to get people to drop their metal weapons and to take the time to get out of their armour, if they can. You aren't really trying to damage them, just keep them occupied with getting rid of the heated metal, so what about the following?

 

Heated Metal (Compound Power) (177 Active, 41 Real)

Part 1: Transform, Major: 6d6 (Standard effect 18 Points)(Metalled up Person to non Metalled up person, Heals: Waiting till Metal Armour, Weapons etc cool down and put them back on)(90 Active Points); OAF (-1/2), No Range (-1/2), RSR (-1/2), Limited Power: Doesn't affect those without Metal on their Bodies(-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4)

 

Part 2: Entangle 7d6, 7 Def (70 Active Points) (Takes no Damage from attacks (+1/4);OAF (-1/2), No Range (-1/2), RSR (-1/2), Limited Power: Doesn't affect those without Metal on their Bodies(-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4), Does Not Prevent Use of Accessible Foci(-1), Limited Power: Entagle Ends as soon as Metal is off Body(-1/2)

 

Reasoning: You are forcing people to remove their armour and throw down weapons and rip other metal bits off their bodies. Essentially transforming them into Non Metalled People. As well all they are going to do for a few minutes is stand there and get the metal away from them, immobilizing them for the most part. As nothing actually confines them, they can still use OAFs and IAFs in order to get rid of said metal. You could make the Entagle NND, I suppose, as a variant and rule that any power def also stops the entagle from working. Not sure if they should be linked in the fashion of the actual limitation or not.

 

The above was done using 5E rules, so season to taste.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Superheat metal

 

Area Of Effect: Surface' date=' with or without Radius (single piece of metal vs all metal in an area) plus Damage Over Time (end condition being: letting go of the metal) would probably cover everything nicely.[/quote']

 

How's this?

 

30 Heat Metal (Inductive Magnetism): Blast 1d6, Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4), Constant (+1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Sticky (+1/2), Indirect (Source Point can vary from use to use, path is from Source Point to target; +1/2), Attack Versus Alternate Defense (Life Support Extreme Heat; +1), Invisible Power Effects (Fully Invisible; +1), Area Of Effect Accurate (32m Radius; +1 1/4), Selective (+1/4), Damage Over Time (33-64 damage increments, damage occurs every Segment, can be negated by ending contact with the "affected" metal; +5 1/4) (60 Active Points); Limited Power Only vs. Targets Touching Metal (-1)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Superheat metal

 

You missed "does BOD", HM. Other than that, looks very thorough.

 

However, I question whether the limitation is appropriate when the same condition applies for ending the damage over time.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Superheat metal

 

You missed "does BOD", HM. Other than that, looks very thorough.

 

However, I question whether the limitation is appropriate when the same condition applies for ending the damage over time.

 

I considered adding "Does Body" and figured it would be easy enough to add as a Linked ability that doesn't kick in until after X seconds.

Something that may not be obvious but Damage Over Time does not require the Constant and Uncontrolled Advantages, those are 'extra' in this build.

They allow the character attacking with this ability to pump enough extra END into it at the beginning so that it increases by +1d6/segment on the attacker's Phases.

DOT alone lets the attack eventually do 60d6 in the course of a minute. I believe the normal rules for taking stun damage after being knocked out would cause the attack to eventually inflict Body Damage via 'cooking' very quickly.

 

re: Limitations

One determines who can be targeted to begin with, the other is the end condition. One doesn't have to match the other.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Superheat metal

 

So did useable against others go away in 6th because I didn't see anyone mention that.

 

I was thinking a smallish energy blast (2 or 3d6) with damage sheild, useable against others at range etc. If that's not too expensive add a change environment effect that provides a combat value penalty (or general action penalty) to all those affected until they are no longer in contact with the offending metal.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Superheat metal

 

So did useable against others go away in 6th because I didn't see anyone mention that.

 

I was thinking a smallish energy blast (2 or 3d6) with damage sheild, useable against others at range etc. If that's not too expensive add a change environment effect that provides a combat value penalty (or general action penalty) to all those affected until they are no longer in contact with the offending metal.

 

Damage Shield got folded into AOE as an option called Surface. Sticky already does what I believe you are getting at as well.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Superheat metal

 

I believe the normal rules for taking stun damage after being knocked out would cause the attack to eventually inflict Body Damage via 'cooking' very quickly.

 

Cite, please. The only rules I am aware of are that more STUN makes it take longer to wake up (down to GM's option).

 

 

One determines who can be targeted to begin with' date=' the other is the end condition. One doesn't have to match the other.[/quote']

 

Actually, that raises an interesting point. Under your model, a character who was not an initial target can pick up the super-hot sword dropped by his teammate and use it himself. This seems to again support use of AoE - Surface on all metal objects in proximity to the power's target area.

 

Change Environment could be used to impose an Ego roll on any target (or drop held metal) and one or more STUN per phase on any target remaining in contact with such metal. I don't recall a combat effect allowing CE to inflict BOD, but there should probably be one (APG?)

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Superheat metal

 

Cite, please. The only rules I am aware of are that more STUN makes it take longer to wake up (down to GM's option).

 

Actually, that raises an interesting point. Under your model, a character who was not an initial target can pick up the super-hot sword dropped by his teammate and use it himself. This seems to again support use of AoE - Surface on all metal objects in proximity to the power's target area.

 

Change Environment could be used to impose an Ego roll on any target (or drop held metal) and one or more STUN per phase on any target remaining in contact with such metal. I don't recall a combat effect allowing CE to inflict BOD, but there should probably be one (APG?)

 

- I was incorrectly remembering the chocking rules. Anyway I still think the Body component should be a separate build. To incorporate it in the current build would be far too effective (a character could easily end up taking 3-4 body before they even get a Phase to act)

 

- Uh, no

The build is simulating a special effect. The special effect is making metal hot. Dropping the metal does NOT end the effect on the metal, just on the character that was holding it. Since HERO combat effects are primarily intended to target characters, that's the tack I took in this construction. The Sticky Advantage represents that another character who wasn't in the initial AOE who either attempts to help an affected character get out of the affected metal (ie; like taking off armor) also takes damage from the metal during the process.

 

- I am very hesitant to skip physical effects and go directly to mental ones in a case like this because it then becomes hard to account for targets that are immune to heat (ie; Life Support)

It's essentially the same arguments voiced in this thread about near-immunity to bullets:

Cover Fire ability. Comments?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Superheat metal

 

- I was incorrectly remembering the chocking rules. Anyway I still think the Body component should be a separate build. To incorporate it in the current build would be far too effective (a character could easily end up taking 3-4 body before they even get a Phase to act)

 

I have no issue with the BOD aspect being a separate ability. That said, the same target takes 3 or 4d6 STUN damage before getting a phase to act, which is also pretty debilitating.

 

- Uh, no

The build is simulating a special effect. The special effect is making metal hot. Dropping the metal does NOT end the effect on the metal, just on the character that was holding it. Since HERO combat effects are primarily intended to target characters, that's the tack I took in this construction. The Sticky Advantage represents that another character who wasn't in the initial AOE who either attempts to help an affected character get out of the affected metal (ie; like taking off armor) also takes damage from the metal during the process.

 

According to the limitation (applied at a significant -1 level), a character who was not holding metal could not be targeted by the attack. Now, the Sticky aspect is an interesting one - that would seem to mean that the attack also affects anyone coming in contact with one of the initial targets, heating any metal in their possession as well. Would that include an opponent striking someone already superheated? The Uncontrolled Constant would also seem to indicate the effect remains to "attack" anyone entering the area of effect as well.

 

It seems like AoE Surface on all metal surfaces in the area (or all selected metal surfaces in the area) requires a lot less interpretation (and possibly handwaving) of the RAW mechanics, but I haven't dug through the books to satisfy myself that this is correct.

 

- I am very hesitant to skip physical effects and go directly to mental ones in a case like this because it then becomes hard to account for targets that are immune to heat (ie; Life Support)

It's essentially the same arguments voiced in this thread about near-immunity to bullets:

Cover Fire ability. Comments?

 

Change Environment to superheat metal seems like an effect which is obviously subject to Life Support resulting in immunity to all effects. Life Support provides immunity from the environment, whether natural or changed through CE.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Superheat metal

 

...

According to the limitation (applied at a significant -1 level), a character who was not holding metal could not be targeted by the attack. Now, the Sticky aspect is an interesting one - that would seem to mean that the attack also affects anyone coming in contact with one of the initial targets, heating any metal in their possession as well. Would that include an opponent striking someone already superheated? The Uncontrolled Constant would also seem to indicate the effect remains to "attack" anyone entering the area of effect as well.

 

The Uncontrolled Constant is in there just to allow the user of the ability to decide how 'Hot' they want to make the metal (how much END do they initially pump into the effect at the beginning). I chose it over the 'handwave' method suggested under 'Damage Over Time' as a way of having the effect grow with time. If they just put in the minimum '3 END' then it just does 1d6 per segment. If they put in 12 END it does 1d6/segment until their next Phase where it starts doing 2d6, 3d6 on the next Phase and finally 4d6 on the next Phase until the 60 segments/seconds are up (with the damage tapering off in the reverse order at the end).

 

Anyway, it sure seems like you are attempting to interpret special effect from mechanics. I thought HERO worked the other way around?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Superheat metal

 

The Uncontrolled Constant is in there just to allow the user of the ability to decide how 'Hot' they want to make the metal (how much END do they initially pump into the effect at the beginning). I chose it over the 'handwave' method suggested under 'Damage Over Time' as a way of having the effect grow with time. If they just put in the minimum '3 END' then it just does 1d6 per segment. If they put in 12 END it does 1d6/segment until their next Phase where it starts doing 2d6' date=' 3d6 on the next Phase and finally 4d6 on the next Phase until the 60 segments/seconds are up (with the damage tapering off in the reverse order at the end).[/quote']

 

While I like the effect, is it achieved by the chosen mechanic? If the character defined the power as "supercharging the air such that metal in the area heats up, with metal brought into the area while the effect is still active", his power would heat up the metal of anyone in the area, causing it to do damage over time, and putting 12 END into it would have that effect happen four times to anyone staying in the area, and have it affect anyone entering the area as well, with anyone leaving the area taking no further additional attacks (but still taking the DoT of those attacks which went off while he was in the area).

 

If the character can't affect anyone new entering the area, why should he pay the same price as one who can? I'll answer my own question - perhaps that is the agreed tradeoff for the additional DoT attacks still working even if an initial target leaves the area.

 

I'd be leery of the effect, because it is a rapidly escalating AVAD attack. But, if I'm OK with the effect itself, the mechanics seem a reasonable way of achieving it. I would likely require the damage build slower than every segment, but that assumes I am not prepared to allow an attack which is basically auto-loss for anyone relying on metal equipment. As well, the D&D model doesn't incapacitate its targets all that quickly, so if that's the source, I find the "feel" of the spell is offf.

 

However, I also continue to believe AoE Surface is a preferable means of achieving the objective. It was build with "Superman heats the thug's gun so it is too hot to hold" in mind, and that's the same effect we're looking for here.

 

That brings me back to the CE Ego Roll mechanic, although an alternative would be the flinching rules (I think they're still around). Heroes are made of sterner stuff. and can fight through the pain, but mugs would need an Ego roll after taking damage from the heat or drop their weapons. A bit of a gimme, as IIRC BOD damage makes one flinch, but metal - armed or armored mugs aren't going to be a threat against this spell anyway. In fact, once the spell is cast, I'd be inclined to declare many combats over. "With the ongoing damage from their armor, and the pain forcing them to drop their swords, the guards are quickly defeated". Even without that Continuous, a 3 SPD guard is taking, on average, 14 STUN between each of his phases. Having allowed such a power, I should simply acknowledge that such encounters are meant to be readily dismissed and move on.

 

Anyway' date=' it sure seems like you are attempting to interpret special effect from mechanics. I thought HERO worked the other way around? [/quote']

 

Hero doesn't give you free mechanics because your special effects would justify it. You reason out the appropriate mechanics based on the effects which should arise from the SFX.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Superheat metal

 

Just so you know, the inspiration of this power comes from the LoTR movie where Gandalf the White makes Aragorn drop his sword by heating it (the group doesn't know it's Gandalf and where at the point of attacking).

 

I thought it was neat, and was wondering if I could make it even better. I might try to keep it but tone it down to affect less targets. Perhaps just ONE target.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Superheat metal

 

Seems to me that the effect there is closer to a Change Environment (to force dropping the sword) than a damaging effect. Aragorn certainly didn't seem to suffer any lasting harm, but he got rid of the sword pretty quick. I might be inclined to go with a Change Environment (Ego roll at whatever penalty you feel appropriate to drop any metal held/scramble out of any metal worn) with a Linked attack that functions only if the target does not get rid of all metal worn.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Superheat metal

 

Damage Shield got folded into AOE as an option called Surface. Sticky already does what I believe you are getting at as well.

 

Really? Well I'm always gonna call it Damage Shield, because A: Its much easier than AoE: Surface (and less confusing). And B: Damage Shield sound about a billion times cooler than AoE: Surface. WTF?

[rjcurrie]

Re: Superheat metal

 

And the rules still call it a Damage Shield. It's just bought and costed as a subset of AoE: Surface.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Superheat metal

 

I prefer the Damage Shield being the description of the power, rather than the mechanic, such as Electrical Damage Shield 8d6 Blast (+1/4), AoE Surface (self; +1/4 IIRC) [60 AP] No Range (-1/2) 40 Real Points

[casualplayer]

Re: Superheat metal

 

Should have just renamed Area Effect as Damage Field, with the field area determined by the specifics of the Advantage. Damage Shield sounds like something that protects.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Superheat metal

 

Should have just renamed Area Effect as Damage Field' date=' with the field area determined by the specifics of the Advantage. Damage Shield sounds like something that protects.[/quote']

 

Healing, 2d6, Damage Field....

 

Nope, I think Area of Effect is the better choice.

[dmjalund]

Re: Superheat metal

 

Healing, 2d6, Damage Field....

 

Nope, I think Area of Effect is the better choice.

lets compromise and call it Field Effect