Brittlizing an Engine

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Brittlizing an Engine

 

What would be the right HERO mechanic to build an effect that removes the air from tires (possibly at Range) without physically slashing or otherwise permanently damaging them?

 

Keep in mind that driving on flat tires is usually far more damaging to the tire than whatever caused the loss in air pressure.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Brittlizing an Engine

 

What would be the right HERO mechanic to build an effect that removes the air from tires (possibly at Range) without physically slashing or otherwise permanently damaging them?

 

Keep in mind that driving on flat tires is usually far more damaging to the tire than whatever caused the loss in air pressure.

 

Without getting into the special effect of how the air gets removed, the first thing that comes to mind would be a minor Transform: inflated tire to flat tire; reversed by re-inflating the tire.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Brittlizing an Engine

 

They run a higher risk of blowout if they take damage. For example' date=' one might reasonably rule that slowly running over the curb causes 1 BOD damage. A normal tire would be unaffected, but with 0 DEF, the tire is sufficiently fragile to blow out.[/quote']IMO, it's also reasonable to rule that an internal combustion engine is doing 1-2 BODY damage to itself every Phase, which is reduced by its DEF. So Draining all the DEF would cause the engine to tear itself apart, unless someone turns it off.

 

That interpretation is subject to the game and genre, but in a Supers game against a normal car (not bought with Character Points), that's what I'd rule.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Brittlizing an Engine

 

What would be the right HERO mechanic to build an effect that removes the air from tires (possibly at Range) without physically slashing or otherwise permanently damaging them?

 

Keep in mind that driving on flat tires is usually far more damaging to the tire than whatever caused the loss in air pressure.

 

If I wanted the effect to be that the tires take damage over time, one approach would be an Uncontrolled Continuous attack that works only when the vehicle is moving, with the shutoff condition being reinflation of the tires.

 

To turn the question around, what Hero rules exist for targeting the tires specifically, rather than the vehicle as a whole, and for damaging only the tires, not the entire vehicle? Maybe there's something in TuV on this. My general experience is that Hero doesn't fine tune damage based on location that much.

[yamamura]

Re: Brittlizing an Engine

 

-7 to hit and 2 Def with 2 BODY iirc from the Ultimate Vehicle.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Brittlizing an Engine

 

-7 to hit and 2 Def with 2 BODY iirc from the Ultimate Vehicle.

 

But what happens when they're damaged/destroyed? Presumably, there are rules in that regard or there would be no point in having the hit locations.

 

In any case, if you want to destroy the tires, a 1.5d6 Defense Drain (standard effect) plus a 1/2 d6 KA (only when vehicle moving; tires only; DoT 2 increments) would blow the tires out in one hit. That's not a ton of AP.

 

[ASIDE: That -7 looked steep until I considered the usual DCV levels of a vehicle...]

[baronspam]

Re: Brittlizing an Engine

 

A major concept of hero power design is that you can't get major mechanical elements out of a power by "special effect" without paying points for them. A drain on pd doesn't drain body or cause body damage unless you pay the points for that. Even if it "makes sense" that the target would be loosing body, that means the power you have in mind is mechanically more effective than just a pd drain, and you have to pay points to drain the body or add a killing attack to it.

 

In short, there is no such thing as a free lunch. If you want to do the body damage pay the ponts to drain the body or make the killing attack. Otherwise, its is sort of like saying that if my force bolt has a special effect that is should do extra knockback, i should get the extra knockback without paying for it. Yes, it "makes sense', but I have to pay for the mechanical effects of that power.

[archermoo]

Re: Brittlizing an Engine

 

In each example I put forth if no attempt is made to actually use it for its intended purpose nothing gets destroyed.

Example: the car engine and tires will be fine when the Drain fades. they only suffer damage if used while the Drain is active.

 

And if you are the Ref and wish to declare that in your world a car engine does {x} amount of damage to itself by simply being used, that is entirely up to you. However short of such a declaration simply draining the PD and/or ED from something doesn't make it start taking damage.

 

Which goes back to one of the fundamental parts of Hero that even veterans can lose track of sometimes. In Hero you are buying discrete mechanics. When you buy a 12d6 Blast, you are buying a way of doing damage to a single target. The fact that the SFX are of a jet of flame doesn't change that, and even though a number of other effects of being hit by a jet of flame might make sense logically (being blinded by the light, having your belongings/clothing set on fire, etc), you don't get those effects unless either you buy it as part of your power or the target has taken it as a complication.

 

And if you want to delve into things that would make sense from a real world POV, freezing objects to the point of making them brittle actually can permanently weaken them. So it would make just as much sense to say that something drained in that fashion permanently loses some amount of its PD and/or ED as it would to say that it should start to take damage simply from being used while it has reduced PD and/or ED. Giving either or both of those effects to objects that you feel it would make sense for as part of the implied "real {x}" complication that real things have would be perfectly reasonable. But it certainly isn't part of the RAW.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Brittlizing an Engine

 

So what happens if a character uses a PD Drain vs. a plane of glass in a window on a windy day?

 

By all the RAW arguments everybody keeps throwing around (incorrectly imo) it sounds like the window would NOT get damaged by the wind even though it has reduced defenses.

 

This is not a custom campaign setting issue anymore than the write ups for vehicles and guns are. This is a fundamental definition of what 'real world' effects actually means. It's no different than the drowning rules, but a lot of people seem think it is for some reason.

[Egyptoid]

Re: Brittlizing an Engine

 

what rules exist for say, a fuel leak on said car to asplode, and the fire hurt people?

 

if there are hazards that can cause damage, for which no points were paid, then . . .

[archermoo]

Re: Brittlizing an Engine

 

So what happens if a character uses a PD Drain vs. a plane of glass in a window on a windy day?

 

By all the RAW arguments everybody keeps throwing around (incorrectly imo) it sounds like the window would NOT get damaged by the wind even though it has reduced defenses.

 

This is not a custom campaign setting issue anymore than the write ups for vehicles and guns are. This is a fundamental definition of what 'real world' effects actually means. It's no different than the drowning rules, but a lot of people seem think it is for some reason.

 

what rules exist for say, a fuel leak on said car to asplode, and the fire hurt people?

 

if there are hazards that can cause damage, for which no points were paid, then . . .

 

Determining the effect of things like this is what Refs are for.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Brittlizing an Engine

 

So what happens if a character uses a PD Drain vs. a plane of glass in a window on a windy day?

 

By all the RAW arguments everybody keeps throwing around (incorrectly imo) it sounds like the window would NOT get damaged by the wind even though it has reduced defenses.

 

Even if it was Drained to 0 PD, it would still have its BODY, which the wind would need to overcome.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Brittlizing an Engine

 

Even if it was Drained to 0 PD' date=' it would still have its BODY, which the wind would need to overcome.[/quote']

 

Please explain what you mean by 'overcome'? It sounds like you are implying BODY is its own defense.

 

I'm no expert on word meaning/history but WINDow sure sounds like it comes from something meant to keep out the WIND. Wind exerts force (ask any architect of a highrise, accounting for wind is much harder than accounting for gravity).

 

Going back to a specific special effect example....

 

The classic 'dip a rose into a vat of liquid nitrogen and it breaks apart at a touch' seems to fit the HERO mechanic Drain PD quite well as the rose would basically return to normal once it gradually warmed back up to room temp.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Brittlizing an Engine

 

Please explain what you mean by 'overcome'? It sounds like you are implying BODY is its own defense.

 

The glass still has its 1 BODY (2 if it's reinforced). Wind will still need to do that BODY to break the glass.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Brittlizing an Engine

 

Please explain what you mean by 'overcome'? It sounds like you are implying BODY is its own defense.

 

I'm no expert on word meaning/history but WINDow sure sounds like it comes from something meant to keep out the WIND. Wind exerts force (ask any architect of a highrise, accounting for wind is much harder than accounting for gravity).

 

Going back to a specific special effect example....

 

The classic 'dip a rose into a vat of liquid nitrogen and it breaks apart at a touch' seems to fit the HERO mechanic Drain PD quite well as the rose would basically return to normal once it gradually warmed back up to room temp.

 

The Nitrogen also has a linked RKA that only works against objects that it has brought down to 0 DEF.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Brittlizing an Engine

 

The Nitrogen also has a linked RKA that only works against objects that it has brought down to 0 DEF.

 

So the Linked RKA only works if the object is later hit by something else? That makes no sense.

If the object is handled carefully (no damage is done to it while frozen by the nitrogen) it will return to normal. Why is a linked RKA necessary?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Brittlizing an Engine

 

The glass still has its 1 BODY (2 if it's reinforced). Wind will still need to do that BODY to break the glass.

 

Sure, and your point is??

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Brittlizing an Engine

 

Sure' date=' and your point is??[/quote']

 

The point is that a standard PD drain doesn't do body damage. Never has, never will.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Brittlizing an Engine

 

So what happens if a character uses a PD Drain vs. a plane of glass in a window on a windy day?

 

By all the RAW arguments everybody keeps throwing around (incorrectly imo) it sounds like the window would NOT get damaged by the wind even though it has reduced defenses.

 

Sure' date=' and your point is??[/quote']

 

Unless the wind does damage, the glass will not break. If I drain a human being's PD and ED down to 0, and send him off to the store on the same windy day, will he die? Not unless the wind does damage. I could certainly accept that a sufficiently strong wind causes damage to an object or person resisting it, but absent such damage, having no defenses does not result in damage being inflicted.

 

Let's proceed on that riff. MassiveMan is a giant of a man - over 8 feet tall. He has extra PD and ED as part of his massiveness. Drain-O comes along and Drains all of Massive Man's PD. Should he now start taking damage as his weakened body is no longer capable of supporting his exceptional mass? Or do I have to buy an attack that does damage in order in inflict damage?

 

If the effect of the power should "logically" cause damage, then the build for the power should LOGICALLY include a mechanic that inflicts damage. You don't get freebies in Hero, you pay for the logical effects of your powers.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Brittlizing an Engine

 

So the Linked RKA only works if the object is later hit by something else? That makes no sense.

If the object is handled carefully (no damage is done to it while frozen by the nitrogen) it will return to normal. Why is a linked RKA necessary?

 

So, which is it? Are we discussing 'it got so cold it fell apart' or not? If we are, then there needs to be a damage-causing power involved somewhere. It's that simple.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Brittlizing an Engine

 

The point is that a standard PD drain doesn't do body damage. Never has' date=' never will.[/quote']

 

Guess what? I have NEVER said that it would. But naturally occurring effects (like strong winds on tall buildings) would.

 

I think folks are having a disconnect on the math consequences of having 0 PD (like the rose in nitrogen example). 0 PD means almost ANY application of force will do BODY to the object. To argue otherwise is silly imo.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Brittlizing an Engine

 

So' date=' which is it? Are we discussing 'it got so cold it fell apart' or not? If we are, then there needs to be a damage-causing power involved somewhere. It's that simple.[/quote']

 

No it's not.

[archermoo]

Re: Brittlizing an Engine

 

This is not a custom campaign setting issue anymore than the write ups for vehicles and guns are. This is a fundamental definition of what 'real world' effects actually means. It's no different than the drowning rules, but a lot of people seem think it is for some reason.

 

Oh, and of note as I missed this before: The write ups of vehicles and guns are absolutely a campaign setting issue. The writeups that are included in the rules are examples of vehicles and weapons that can be built using the rules. A battle axe doing 2d6KA with a standard Stun multiple and a Strength minimum of 13 isn't an integral part of the rules. It is just an example of how a battle axe can be built, and specifically how one is built at the power level used in at least most of the settings that the folx at Hero write.

 

If you want to say that in your campaigns internal combustion engines do damage to themselves just by running, but that normally the PD or ED of the engine stops that damage from actually doing any BODY to the engine, that is certainly up to you. But it isn't part of the rules as written.

[archermoo]

Re: Brittlizing an Engine

 

Guess what? I have NEVER said that it would. But naturally occurring effects (like strong winds on tall buildings) would.

 

I think folks are having a disconnect on the math consequences of having 0 PD (like the rose in nitrogen example). 0 PD means almost ANY application of force will do BODY to the object. To argue otherwise is silly imo.

 

No, having a 0 PD means that any attack that does at least one BODY will do BODY to the object. Someone with a 5 STR could punch an object with a 0 PD and have a 1 in 6 chance of doing no BODY to it.

 

To argue that forces that don't do at least 1 BODY worth of damage will do BODY damage to objects with 0 PD is silly imo.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Brittlizing an Engine

 

Guess what? I have NEVER said that it would. But naturally occurring effects (like strong winds on tall buildings) would.

 

I think folks are having a disconnect on the math consequences of having 0 PD (like the rose in nitrogen example). 0 PD means almost ANY application of force will do BODY to the object. To argue otherwise is silly imo.

 

Not all applications of force cause damage.