Superpowers and Ethics

[Christopher]

Re: Superpowers and Ethics

 

Page 195 of Champions Powers' date=' Environmental Mayhem.[/quote']

All I see is "damn hard to track back". You are still the source of this, no matter if uncontrolled or unconcious. So your are still responsible for the damage caused.

[Clonus]

Re: Superpowers and Ethics

 

That may be true' date=' but we weren't debating the cost effectiveness of powers vs skills.[/quote']

 

I think it has a bearing on the issue, because the gist of the argument is that because mind control can be distorted into something that works just like persuasion except more expensively, that therefore means it's fine to use mind control to push around everyone.

[Christopher]

Re: Superpowers and Ethics

 

I think it has a bearing on the issue' date=' because the gist of the argument is that because mind control can be distorted into something that works just like persuasion except more expensively, that therefore means it's fine to use mind control to push around everyone.[/quote']

That's another good point. In Standart Superhero your skills are limited to 13- as start value. your powers are limited to 80. So there is an important balacing decision.

Why should you be able to get something as legal and ethical as an 13- Persuasion, but with the Power of a 80 AP MC?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Superpowers and Ethics

 

So I could use this power to convince an entire town that I'm their leader' date=' and it would not be viewed as an attack/illegal in and off itself? If I don't use them for anything criminal, nobody can legally stop me?[/quote']

 

Given the SFX of the power, I would say it is more appropriately used to convince the town leaders and populace that your ideas should be implemented, and/or to convince the townsfolk that you should be elected as their leader. Giving advice or running for office are hardly criminal activities, now are they?

 

All I see is "damn hard to track back". You are still the source of this' date=' no matter if uncontrolled or unconcious. So your are still responsible for the damage caused.[/quote']

 

By virtue of the effect, crazy luck is the source of the power. If you want a power that has a more obvious cause, but even less connection to the character, I can define my character as a Prophet of the Lord (many will see the source of this, I suspect). Because he is a Prophet, an Archangel is assigned to look out for him. Anyone who dares threaten harm to the Prophet will be set upon by the Archangel. This is simply a Blast with a self-resetting Trigger, Indirect and a few other modifiers to have the Archangel smite any offender. The character lacks any control. The source of the attack is the Archangel.

 

The player has set up the attack. It's on the character sheet. But abilities on the character sheet need not be abilities the character personally manifests.

 

That's another good point. In Standart Superhero your skills are limited to 13- as start value. your powers are limited to 80. So there is an important balacing decision.

Why should you be able to get something as legal and ethical as an 13- Persuasion, but with the Power of a 80 AP MC?

 

First off, what are characteristics limited to in Standard Supers? A 23 PRE gets me a 14- Persuasion roll, so I find it hard to consider skills as limited to 13-.

 

Second, the suggested point totals are about balance, not about legality and ethics. I can build Margarita Man well within 80 AP. He sits on the beach using his Invisible mental powers through his Invisible mind scan. He doesn't care about the ethics of the power. [Margarita Man is easy to find with a search, so I won't bore the reader once more with his hypothetical power builds. No sane GM would allow him.]

[Christopher]

Re: Superpowers and Ethics

 

Given the SFX of the power' date=' I would say it is more appropriately used to convince the town leaders and populace that your ideas should be implemented, and/or to convince the townsfolk that you should be elected as their leader. Giving advice or running for office are hardly criminal activities, now are they?[/quote']

Since when does the SFX restrict me from archieving an EGO+30 Result?

 

Environmental Mayhem:

So you can cost-effectively build the ultimate, untraceable Hitman-Power?

When the Archangel hit's everyone with KA "Sword trhough chest" from nowhere, how much difference is there to the affliction/radiation examples? What if it aplies to people unintentially harmign me? (i.e. some running into me and I get a bleedy nose).

 

About persuasion:

Sorry, hit the wrong column. 15- is the upper limit. But still: When MC can archieve better results within the limit for the same character-power-category, doesn't that mean that it does something totally different than persuasion? And could this thing actually be, that it does attack/manipulate the mind directly to archieve it's effects?

[phookz]

Re: Superpowers and Ethics

 

Since when does the SFX restrict me from archieving an EGO+30 Result?

 

Who said it did? That sounds more like a limitation than the SFX

 

Environmental Mayhem:

So you can cost-effectively build the ultimate, untraceable Hitman-Power?

When the Archangel hit's everyone with KA "Sword trhough chest" from nowhere, how much difference is there to the affliction/radiation examples? What if it aplies to people unintentially harmign me? (i.e. some running into me and I get a bleedy nose).

 

What if it does? What if the prophet of the lord doesn't even know it's happening, is it still unethical? The SFX define it as the Lord protecting him. From a game mechanics standpoint, the power emanates from him, because that's how the game is defined. From the character's world standpoint, the power emanates from the Lord. Where do the ethics of the power lie now?

 

About persuasion:

Sorry, hit the wrong column. 15- is the upper limit. But still: When MC can archieve better results within the limit for the same character-power-category, doesn't that mean that it does something totally different than persuasion? And could this thing actually be, that it does attack/manipulate the mind directly to archieve it's effects?

 

Maybe not different, but more effective. Why would that not be possible? The ethics of using it are no different than using Persuasion.

[Christopher]

Re: Superpowers and Ethics

 

Maybe not different' date=' but more effective. Why would that not be possible? The ethics of using it are no different than using Persuasion.[/quote']

So, mentons mind controll is more unethical/percieved as an attack because of...the special effect?

[phookz]

Re: Superpowers and Ethics

 

So' date=' mentons mind controll is more unethical/percieved as an attack because of...the special effect?[/quote']

 

Yes.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Superpowers and Ethics

 

Since when does the SFX restrict me from archieving an EGO+30 Result?

 

It doesn't. You are still running the town. It impacts the manner in which you achieve that EGO + 30 result, just as a character is going to have a very difficult time "Burning your little hamlet to the ground" with Ice Powers when the exact same mechanics with a Fire special effect would do the job quite nicely.

 

I could, of course, split hairs and say "Getting you to do as I say is Mind Control. Getting you to believe I am the leader of the town is Mental Illusions." However, there is some crossover, especially at the high ends of the powers.

 

Environmental Mayhem:

So you can cost-effectively build the ultimate, untraceable Hitman-Power?

 

Frankly, this is Hero. Read the press on the back cover. "If you can imagine it, you can build it." If Hero can't build an untraceable Hitman-Power, then it has failed to deliver that mission statement. However, the fact it can be done does not mean it makes for a balanced or fun game. If it does not, then it should not be allowed in that game. There is a difference between what can be done and what should be done. That's the ethics of game play!

 

When the Archangel hit's everyone with KA "Sword trhough chest" from nowhere' date=' how much difference is there to the affliction/radiation examples? What if it aplies to people unintentially harmign me? (i.e. some running into me and I get a bleedy nose).[/quote']

 

Then the Archangel takes his job very literally, doesn't he? I, the player, defined the power that way. The character did not. Now, if he realizes that his very presence places others, especially innocent people, in danger, then he probably has some bias to avoiding situations where he places innocent people in harm's way. That may trade off against other responsibilities (ie can he just sequester himself away when his gifts are needed to prevent the Apocalypse).

 

The character whose abilities are pure, blind luck many never realize that he is the cause of these issues. Or perhaps he simply accepts that, ethically, it is OK to win the lottery, and it is OK if fortune smiles upon him and protects him from those who - unethically - attack him. Now, if he uses his good fortune to become a bank robber or a hit man, that seems unethical to me. But perhaps he uses this ability to become a rescue worker or (what game are we playing again? oh yes) a Superhero, using his good luck to benefit others. That seems more than ethical to me. Most of us would just sit at home enjoying our lottery winnings.

 

About persuasion:

Sorry, hit the wrong column. 15- is the upper limit. But still: When MC can archieve better results within the limit for the same character-power-category, doesn't that mean that it does something totally different than persuasion? And could this thing actually be, that it does attack/manipulate the mind directly to archieve it's effects?

 

I question whether many restrict skills to 15- either (and I don't think characteristics cap out at 30, since the "official" CU level for Superhuman is over 30 for physical stats and over 50 for mental stats - a Superhuman INT sets base INT skills to 19- at minimum). In any case, Supers is power-focused, not skill-focused, so I can just as easily interpret those limitations to mean "if you're that good, you should really build a SuperSkill power construct to show how persuasive you are, and not use the skill system at all".

 

I note that you are refraining from mentioning the actual game designer's reply to your question on attacks on the Rules Question board (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/84809-Do-Attack-Powers-imply-that-the-power-is-considered-an-attack), where Steve notes that one creates an "attack power" which is not obvious using IPE. In fairness, I don't think the response addresses your underlying question directly. The fact that the issue "verges into circumstances" seems to suggest that, in some circumstances, an Attack power (mechanic) is not automatically considered an attack (ie an assault on a target).

 

What if it does? What if the prophet of the lord doesn't even know it's happening' date=' is it still unethical? The SFX define it as the Lord protecting him. From a game mechanics standpoint, the power emanates from him, because that's how the game is defined. From the character's world standpoint, the power emanates from the Lord. Where do the ethics of the power lie now? [/quote']

 

This is exactly the case - the existence of a power on the character sheet does not mean the power originates from the character. It means it is an advantage enjoyed by the character, whether one generated internally or provided by third parties.

 

So' date=' mentons mind controll is more unethical/percieved as an attack because of...the special effect?[/quote']

 

Yes.

 

Special effects can have some minor meaning within the game. If my Resistant Defense is defined as a barrier of cute baby bunnies summoned up to take the hit for me, that's likely to be viewed differently by the general public than a glowing field of force that surrounds me.

[Christopher]

Re: Superpowers and Ethics

 

Don't you forget the "No Absolutes" rule here? (6E 11 and 133)

 

About the undetecability: Normal Mental Powers are undetectable. Except for Mental Awarenewss. Wich is build as...a "Detect Mental Powers [3 Character Points]".

So you can be certain that there is some way to track it to you.

They have done it in Star Trek DS 9 against Luck-Modification devices. So some thinkerer/gadgeteer should be able to detect or legally solid prove the way your powers works.

 

If it wasn't about the fact that the power is somehow linked to you, the archangel would have to use clairsentience on you. Wich in turn, would be detectable.

 

About the skills for Super Int: There is always the option to buy characteristics based skills with a flat 9- (11- for background skills) Starting Value. (SKILL COST STRUCTURES, 6E1 54). Or you can buy parts of your int Limited, or simply say you only start with 15- In all applicable skills, regardless of what you would be entiteled to).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Superpowers and Ethics

 

Don't you forget the "No Absolutes" rule here? (6E 11 and 133)

 

About the undetecability: Normal Mental Powers are undetectable. Except for Mental Awarenewss. Wich is build as...a "Detect Mental Powers [3 Character Points]".

So you can be certain that there is some way to track it to you.

 

And Invisible to Mental Senses makes the mental power undetectable to Mental Awareness. Whether I would place that on a "SuperPersuasion" build depends on the effect I am looking for. Perhaps he is SuperPersuasive due to unknown, but detectable mental abilities. Perhaps not, in which case making it Invisible to the Mental Sense Group (because it is not, in fact, a mental power) would be the mechanic required. And it is EASY to track it to me. I'm standing right there, expounding on my viewpoint as to what we should do, and asking you to vote in favour of my proposed solution. I'm clearly and obviously trying to influence the decisions being made. If someone says "You know what, you're right and I withdraw my objections", I have succeeded.

 

They have done it in Star Trek DS 9 against Luck-Modification devices. So some thinkerer/gadgeteer should be able to detect or legally solid prove the way your powers works.

 

Sure, "Detect SuperPersuasiveness" will do the job fine.

 

"Captain, the SuperPersuasiveness Detector application to the Ship's Sensor Array detects the Professor has a Persuasiveness Index of 37. That would make his persuasion well nigh irresistible to all but the most stubborn and stupid of sentient life forms."

 

"So, you spent how long, and how much of the Science Budget to build a module that detects what I can see just sitting in a boardroom with him?"

 

If it wasn't about the fact that the power is somehow linked to you' date=' the archangel would have to use clairsentience on you. Wich in turn, would be detectable.[/quote']

 

So who said he was undetectable? If he wants to be undetectable, I suppose he will buy his Clairsentience with IPE so you can't detect it.

 

Funny that your post starts

 

Don't you forget the "No Absolutes" rule here? (6E 11 and 133)

 

and you then go on to opine that it is an Absolute that powers can be detected and traced back to the character whose character sheet they appear on.

 

 

About the skills for Super Int: There is always the option to buy characteristics based skills with a flat 9- (11- for background skills) Starting Value. (SKILL COST STRUCTURES' date=' 6E1 54). Or you can buy parts of your int Limited, or simply say you only start with 15- In all applicable skills, regardless of what you would be entiteled to).[/quote']

 

There is no way I would force a character with 51 INT to spend substantial points to have good rolls in INT-based skills. The only benefit that 41 points gives him is high INT based rolls - skills and PER. I would tell him, instead, "Since skills max at 15-, you cannot have more than 30 INT." But I would more likely say "You can have the roll your INT gives you - the table is a guideline, and I don't see you having 19- INT skills as a gamebreaker". I'm pretty sure the skill roll on the table reflects typical skill rolls for characters of this type, not a cap.

 

Find me anything else in the rules that supports your assertion that Supers are not permitted skill rolls better than 15-. I'd bet someone working through the published characters will quickly find a Standard Supers character that has a skill roll better than 15-!

[Lucius]

Re: Superpowers and Ethics

 

I don't like free will to be reduced to a roll of dice.

 

Within a game' date=' what is the alternative? I see only one - that such abilities succeed or fail on the whim of the GM or the player.[/quote']

 

Yep, it's deja vu all over again. I remember a previous discussion in which I said, several times, "A skill works when it is reasonable and appropriate for it to work, and not otherwise." (also, of course, asuming the roll is made.)

 

But for some reason, Mr. Neilson, you can't seem to grasp ideas like that; you can "see only one (option) - that such abilities succeed or fail on the whim of the GM or the player."

 

Well if that's all you can see, or all you choose to see, so be it. Some of the rest of us do see alternatives.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

It is reasonable and appropriate for me to ride this palindromedary out of here right now.

[Christopher]

Re: Superpowers and Ethics

 

I buy Penetrative to counteract your IPE (which I think is what is defined as the "one thing normally blocking" a mental detect). And thus the detection/hiding arms race has begun. You may put a mental barrier around you to block it, but then I just buy indirect for the sense and we have a indirect/counteracts indirect arms race.

 

Also, it doesn't cost budget. It only costs VPP-Points, temporarily (read: "I modified the tricorder/deflector/sensors/phasers to...."). And it is one thing to detect something and another to prove it legally solid. If not, how could you stop someone like your idea?

[Outsider]

Re: Superpowers and Ethics

 

Buy a 300+ EGO, I guess.

[Christopher]

Re: Superpowers and Ethics

 

Buy a 300+ EGO' date=' I guess.[/quote']

That makes me immune, but what then? My point is, I still can't leagally do anything about him controlling them.

And I don't think UNTIL or any Superteam should be unable to deal with such a power. That would be an inbalancing absolute.

 

Also I am still on the position that MC should always be an attack, regardless of SFX. If you want to persuade without automatically being an attacker, buy persuasion. Like Lucius said: Skill should have reseonable limits, so that they are still distinct form powers.

Can't hide in plain side with a 50- hiding roll, but with a 20 Point Invisbility it is possible.

[Shadow Hawk]

Re: Superpowers and Ethics

 

Mental Defense, area effect, only versus mind control, usable by others should cover it.

[Christopher]

Re: Superpowers and Ethics

 

Mental Defense' date=' area effect, only versus mind control, usable by others should cover it.[/quote']

Okay, now you can foil his plan. But you still can't put him in jail for using his powers. So he can just go to the next city and start anew...

[Outsider]

Re: Superpowers and Ethics

 

Mental Defense' date=' area effect, only versus mind control, usable by others should cover it.[/quote']

 

If it is "persuasion" I am assuming it is bought NND or AVLD such that only an improbably unlikely or highly specific SFX defense will work. If you happen to choose the right defense, great, but if the defense is too common (as in : it is encountered more than once, or the first time the power is used) expect incessant whining about how the evil/mean/bad/jerk GM is persecuting the player by not allowing the power work as intended by the player.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Superpowers and Ethics

 

Okay' date=' now you can foil his plan. But you still can't put him in jail for using his powers. So he can just go to the next city and start anew...[/quote']

 

I can buy that now by purchasing the Perk "Diplomatic Immunity". Dr. Doom in the comics can't be put away either.

 

In most (good) games I've played in, not every problem can be solved by a punch in the face and incarceration.

[phookz]

Re: Superpowers and Ethics

 

Okay' date=' now you can foil his plan. But you still can't put him in jail for using his powers. So he can just go to the next city and start anew...[/quote']

 

I must be confused. I don't see what this has to do with the ethics of the power.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Superpowers and Ethics

 

I think we've drifted from the topic of ethics, just like the old thread drifted into it.

[Clonus]

Re: Superpowers and Ethics

 

Yes.

 

If the modifiers are exactly the same then it doesn't matter what the special effects are because Menton does things that no mundane persuasive ability could match.

[Christopher]

Re: Superpowers and Ethics

 

If the modifiers are exactly the same then it doesn't matter what the special effects are because Menton does things that no mundane persuasive ability could match.

Indeed. With this "Persuasion" MC you can go to someone and say "Bla Bla Bla, Kill Your Wife, Bla Bla Bla" and he does it. And in court you could even defend yourself: "I thought it as a joke. How could I posibilliy know he would do it? I mean nobody can be that persuasive, can he?"

 

If this is about still ethics, is his power any more or less ethic than mentos?

[megaplayboy]

Re: Superpowers and Ethics

 

Hmm. If I created a character with a 50 PRE, plus all of the interaction skills at their base rolls(i.e., 19-), they could likely induce changes in beliefs and behavior not far from what could be accomplished via mind control. Does the fact they could accomplish this without any use of overt superpower(since their skill technically isn't superhuman, just at the very upper bound of what a legendary human might be capable of) in any way diminish the ethical implications of their ability to do so, and use of this ability to accomplish ends they wouldn't otherwise be able to achieve? Goes back to the previously mentioned example of a super-lawyer winning an acquittal for a guilty-as-heck client, or a politician whipping people into a frenzy about something they shouldn't be worried about. Super-persuasion, however modeled, would likely creep into the same ethically murky territory as a "mind control lite" power. It's true that you couldn't get any woman in the world to sleep with you(with a 19- charm roll), but the fact you could get a super-majority to do so tends to point towards a possession of an overly advantageous ability--akin to a power, which should be accompanied by a similar sense of ethical responsibility(well, arguably, anyway--someone could still probably argue the difference between "no woman could say no to me even if she wanted to" and "it's possible for a woman to say no, it's just extremely difficult and therefore unlikely". )

[Clonus]

Re: Superpowers and Ethics

 

Hmm. If I created a character with a 50 PRE' date=' plus all of the interaction skills at their base rolls(i.e., 19-), they could likely induce changes in beliefs and behavior not far from what could be accomplished via mind control. [/quote']

 

Snapping your fingers and getting strangers to instantly go down on you?