VPP active point costs

[Kyrinthic]

Good afternoon,

 

I am in a campaign where I have chosen to build a gadget character, with a VPP. I built him with a 60 point VPP (and like 15ish point control cost after some limitations). I cant change powers in combat, All my gadgets have a focus, etc.

 

Now the hero designer shows this as being 90 active points.

 

If I read the rules correctly, I can only make a 60 active point power with that pool, not a 90 point one, why would it be listed as a 90 active point power?

 

Building a multipower does not add the slot costs to the active points of the pool cost for example.

 

All of this is in 5th edition.

 

Am I reading something wrong, or am I supposed to suffer a 30% performance hit by trying to use a VPP, on top of its significant cost?

 

-Kyrinthic

[Hyper-Man]

Re: VPP active point costs

 

Build a power within the VPP and the maximum active cost will be 60.

The Active cost of the VPP itself is a number usually only useful for comparing the entire construct to single power with a Variable Advantage (see the VA/MP/VPP comparison link from my sig for more on this).

 

VPP's are empty containers until you build the powers they can be used to create.

 

See this 5e version of Batman and his Utility Belt for an example.

[Kyrinthic]

Re: VPP active point costs

 

Oh, I get how they work thats why I like it, I just dont understand why the character creation tool lists it as 90 active points. That is making my GM not want to let me have it at full value, and while versitility is fun, I dont think its worth having 40 point powers in a 60 point game

 

I thought perhaps I was reading something wrong or the HDC was giving an incorrect number. I tried doing searches through the forum, and while there are lots of posts on comparing VPP with other frameworks or debating about how good / bad they are, nothing else seems to reference this AP cost I am seeing.

 

I mean if I build a 60 point multipower with 5 fixed slots, it doesnt show that as 90 active points, but it shows a 60 point vpp with a 30 point control cost as 90 active points.

 

-Kyrinthic

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: VPP active point costs

 

It's 90 active points because 60 (pool reserve) plus 30 (control cost without limitations) equals 90. HD is doing it right; since active points don't tell the whole story, that shouldn't be a reason for your GM to deny it out of hand.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: VPP active point costs

 

I know some GM's do look at the total cost of a VPP or a Multipower as an active point cost for cap purposes - that is, they do impose a lower raw power tradeoff for greater flexibility.

 

I find rigid application of an AP limit tends to prohibit many creative and/or interesting abilities that are not unbalancing, so I'm not a big fan of strict adherence to caps in that regard. While I don't apply a formula to reductions in raw power for enhancements in flexibility, I do weigh the two in the context of overall character evaluation. Maybe the big bruiser, whose only attack is STR, should be allowed an extra Damage Class or two beyond the Energy Projector with virtually every attack mechanic tucked away in his Multipower.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: VPP active point costs

 

Also, in case nobody pointed it out, the Control Cost would be the Active Point limit in 6th - so with a 15 Point Control Cost and a 60 point Pool, you could have up to 60 Real Points worth of powers (price of power after all limitations are applied) with any given power being up to 15 Active Points.

[Christopher]

Re: VPP active point costs

 

When I read Crosshairs Post right, it seems to be an 60 Control + 60 Reserve (wich in fact would cost 30+60, in 6E at least).

 

I wouldn't try to compare Multipower and VPP to much. They are both power Frameworks, but totally different. In a Multipower you have to buy and define every power in advance.

In a VPP, you can just pull out the LS-equipment, Mental Power Detector, or Hypno-Blaster you need. Inlcuding the option to exploit weaknesses in the enemys build.

Also, i think the VPP is ideal to defend against NND's, once you know of them.

[Ice9]

Re: VPP active point costs

 

If you really need to lower the cost, since all your gadgets have a focus, you can reduce the pool size - it only needs to hold the RP of the powers, not the AP. So for instance:

VPP (40 RP Pool, 60 AP Control), 70 AP; Change Powers at Base (-1/2), all Slots Focus (-1/2), 55 RP.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: VPP active point costs

 

If you really need to lower the cost, since all your gadgets have a focus, you can reduce the pool size - it only needs to hold the RP of the powers, not the AP. So for instance:

VPP (40 RP Pool, 60 AP Control), 70 AP; Change Powers at Base (-1/2), all Slots Focus (-1/2), 55 RP.

 

Which is absolutely correct for 6e but the OP stated the game this is for is using 5e.

[Ice9]

Re: VPP active point costs

 

Whoops.

[Kyrinthic]

Re: VPP active point costs

 

Yeah, this is 5th edition, I actually have a focus limit and a timeframe limit (cant change during combat) on the control cost, to keep it a form of being prepared rather than reacting, the real point cost is like 75ish.

 

I was really just concerned about the 'active point' aspect. Ie, if I make a 12d6 energy blast, its 60 active points, regardless of how many limits I put on it, or what framework I build it in, except, according to the HDC program, if I do it as a VPP, its 90 active points.

 

I get that there is a level of utility to VPPs, but I still dont really get why it gets labled as active points when other frameworks dont put an active point label above the cost of the powers in the pool.

 

I compare it to a multipower because a multipower with ~10 slots costs roughly the same as a vpp once you add in skill cost to change the pool powers, and performs in the ballpark of the same function. Its less open ended, but it loses points from disads a lot better.

 

I think my best bet is to show my GM the 6th edition rules and see what he thinks about it, or remake my character with a multipower, slightly less versatile in order to be effective at the same power level as the rest of the group.

 

-Kyrinthic

[ghost-angel]

Re: VPP active point costs

 

Because a VPP is a MP with a infinite number of slots. So the control is created to be part of the AP of the overall structure.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: VPP active point costs

 

Yeah, this is 5th edition, I actually have a focus limit and a timeframe limit (cant change during combat) on the control cost, to keep it a form of being prepared rather than reacting, the real point cost is like 75ish.

 

I was really just concerned about the 'active point' aspect. Ie, if I make a 12d6 energy blast, its 60 active points, regardless of how many limits I put on it, or what framework I build it in, except, according to the HDC program, if I do it as a VPP, its 90 active points.

 

I get that there is a level of utility to VPPs, but I still dont really get why it gets labled as active points when other frameworks dont put an active point label above the cost of the powers in the pool.

 

I compare it to a multipower because a multipower with ~10 slots costs roughly the same as a vpp once you add in skill cost to change the pool powers, and performs in the ballpark of the same function. Its less open ended, but it loses points from disads a lot better.

 

I think my best bet is to show my GM the 6th edition rules and see what he thinks about it, or remake my character with a multipower, slightly less versatile in order to be effective at the same power level as the rest of the group.

 

-Kyrinthic

 

I think I'd call the flexibility to use absolutely any power in the book more than "a level of utility". It's the ultimate utility giving you all the options from the Hero System toolkit in one character...

[sobran]

Re: VPP active point costs

 

Yeah, this is 5th edition, I actually have a focus limit and a timeframe limit (cant change during combat) on the control cost, to keep it a form of being prepared rather than reacting, the real point cost is like 75ish.

 

I was really just concerned about the 'active point' aspect. Ie, if I make a 12d6 energy blast, its 60 active points, regardless of how many limits I put on it, or what framework I build it in, except, according to the HDC program, if I do it as a VPP, its 90 active points.

 

I get that there is a level of utility to VPPs, but I still dont really get why it gets labled as active points when other frameworks dont put an active point label above the cost of the powers in the pool.

 

I compare it to a multipower because a multipower with ~10 slots costs roughly the same as a vpp once you add in skill cost to change the pool powers, and performs in the ballpark of the same function. Its less open ended, but it loses points from disads a lot better.

 

I think my best bet is to show my GM the 6th edition rules and see what he thinks about it, or remake my character with a multipower, slightly less versatile in order to be effective at the same power level as the rest of the group.

 

-Kyrinthic

 

I get what you're saying here and to a degree, I even agree. (Hey, that rhymed!) However, Bigbywolfe has it right: the level of flexibility you have is mind-boggling. It is true that you lose some raw power under 5th Edition. /However/, you might ask your GM if they intend to use a healthy mix of villains with Vulnerabilities or Susceptibilities. If this is the case, your character will be incredibly useful against those with such weaknesses, provided your character has some idea who they might face and when. Against villains without specific weaknesses or against those villains that you were unprepared for, you will be less effective.

 

It is worth noting that you could go with a smaller VPP for purely utilitarian purposes ("I brought my grappling hook today!") and an attack power or two outside of any framework with Variable Advantage, so you could switch out your attacks on the fly, but this would still take a hit to your maximum power under the AP Cap. Viewed that way, perhaps the power loss on a VPP isn't so unreasonable.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: VPP active point costs

 

I think I'd call the flexibility to use absolutely any power in the book more than "a level of utility". It's the ultimate utility giving you all the options from the Hero System toolkit in one character...

 

A Multipower with 100 variable slots wold be pretty flexible too, and each power's AP is measured separately. If we're going to impose a reduction in raw power for having a VPP, should a flexible Multipower (or multiple attack powers purchased directly) not face a reduction in raw power from the character with only one attack, and no choices, albeit a lesser reduction than for the character with infinite flexibility?

 

A lot of you point to vulnerabilities/susceptibilities in support of a higher AP for the VPP. Should a VPP for "fire powers" be recognized with a lower AP, somehow? It cannot take advantage of all those vulnerabilities/susceptibilities, since all powers are fire-based.

 

Is there anything in the rule book itself that says a VPP itself has an active point cost, or is this an artifact of Hero Designer, and not of the rules?

[Christopher]

Re: VPP active point costs

 

I think I'd call the flexibility to use absolutely any power in the book more than "a level of utility". It's the ultimate utility giving you all the options from the Hero System toolkit in one character...

And you usually build them with special effects, that allow you to mimic other sfx's:

A "Gadeget" or "Magic" VPP could concieveably create the basics elements (fire, wind, ice, sonic). The gadeget in adition Laser, Bullets....

And don't forget that certain powers are always limited, Drains and Aid's for example. Just think about a drain anything.

You basically get Variable Special effect, Variable Limitation and Variable Advantage for free with each of them, and then some...

And you can use "usable by others" Focus, meaning your entire team can benefit from it...

 

A lot of you point to vulnerabilities/susceptibilities in support of a higher AP for the VPP. Should a VPP for "fire powers" be recognized with a lower AP' date=' somehow? It cannot take advantage of all those vulnerabilities/susceptibilities, since all powers are fire-based.[/quote']

Don't buy it as a VPP. It's a good chase for a Multipower/Elemental Control. For some minor one-time effects you can use a power skill (if your GM aproves) and if you like it, just spend the few points on it.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: VPP active point costs

 

Even in 5e a VPP is still a great tool for representing all variations on an otherwise limited power-set.

 

Here is an example from an experiment in building Superman on 250 points in 5e using a VPP for a large portion of his powers:

 

87 Strange Visitor... with powers and abilities far beyond those of mortal men: Variable Power Pool, 50 base + 25 control cost, No Skill Roll Required (+1), Powers Can Be Changed As A Zero-Phase Action (+1) (125 Active Points); Limited Class Of Powers Available Kryptonion Powers Only (Speed, Strength, Toughness, Senses, Heat-Vision, etc..) (-1/2); all slots Limited Power Affected by Adjustments as an EC (-1/4), Limited Power Not in the presence of Kryptonite or red solar radiation (-1/4)

0 1) Faster...: Teleportation 12", No Relative Velocity, x2 Increased Mass, x4 Noncombat (44 Active Points); Must Pass Through Intervening Space (-1/4) Real Cost: 25

0 2) ...than a...: Running +18" (6"/24" total) (36 Active Points) Real Cost: 24

0 3) ...speeding...: +4 Overall Skill Levels (40 Active Points); Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4) Real Cost: 23

0 4) ...Bullet: Missile Deflection (Any Ranged Attack), Missile Reflection (40 Active Points); Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4) Real Cost: 23

0 5) More powerfull than a locamotive: Density Increase (7,000 kg mass, +30 STR, +6 PD/ED, -6" KB), Costs END Only To Activate (+1/4) (37 Active Points) Real Cost: 25

0 6) Able to leap tall buildings in a single bound: Leaping +20" (2"/26" forward, 1"/13" upward) (Accurate, x4 Noncombat), combat acceleration/deceleration (+1/4) (37 Active Points) Real Cost: 25

0 7) Look! Up in the sky!: Flight 16", Position Shift (37 Active Points) Real Cost: 25

0 8) It's a bird. It's a plane. It's...: Flight 11", No Turn Mode (+1/4), MegaScale (1" = 1 km; +1/4), Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) (38 Active Points) Real Cost: 25

 

 

How the individual slots are built is not as important as the scope of what they can be used to model. In this example it means there are a lot of abilities it cannot be used for (mental, size, etc..). The Limited Class of Powers Limitation only applies to the Control cost of the VPP, not the individual slots.

[Christopher]

Re: VPP active point costs

 

Don't buy it as a VPP. It's a good chase for a Multipower/Elemental Control. For some minor one-time effects you can use a power skill (if your GM aproves) and if you like it' date=' just spend the few points on it.[/quote']

I just read: Fire Power VPP in 6E is just a VPP with Limited Class of Powers (-1/2). And of course you do get lesser punch. You can still aply adders as you see fit and your target requires (I don't know how Damage Reducting gets negated in 5E, but in 6E it's a really cheap adder).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: VPP active point costs

 

Don't buy it as a VPP. It's a good chase for a Multipower/Elemental Control. For some minor one-time effects you can use a power skill (if your GM aproves) and if you like it' date=' just spend the few points on it.[/quote']

 

I am a big fan of converting a Multipower to a VPP with pre-defined slots and the Cosmic advantage if and when the VPP approach becomes less expensive than the Multipower approach. Both are simply different ways of having a variety of different powers available, but not simultaneously. There is no reason that a character should be required to spend more in order to be less effective.

[Kyrinthic]

Re: VPP active point costs

 

Spending more I get, a VPP is god aweful expensive, and impossible to reduce the cost, but thats ok, its very versitile. Versitility is great, if you have the chance to prepare for it. I mean if you GM only throws guys in with vulnerabilties you can find in advance and exploit on a regular basis, I could see a reason why being 30% behind the rest of the party could make sense. But, most competant GMs will have villians that have weaknesses exploitable by other members of the party that dont have a VPP, or villians with no weaknesses, or weaknesses you cant find out in advance at least as often as the first option.

 

And its got to be a pretty damn big hole in their defenses before a 40 point attack bought to exploit it is as strong as a 60 point generic attack in the first place, and if you cant find one of those holes literally every fight, you will be the team chump.

 

As for having a good mix of utility powers, ie, an EB, an RKA, a flash, an entangle, and whatnot, well, a multipower is going to be the way to go, and your toolbox will be plenty big enough to deal with the situations you come across, you will have a higher AP cap, and you will have spent less points than the guy trying to work with a VPP.

 

As for the book saying that the control cost affects active points, I didnt see it anywhere, I only see it in hero designer, which was why I though at first it was a bug, but really couldnt find confirmation one way or another.

 

-Kyrinthic

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: VPP active point costs

 

(I don't know how Damage Reducting gets negated in 5E' date=' but in 6E it's a really cheap adder).[/quote']

 

No, as far as I know there is no way to bypass DR unless it is Limited so that it doesn't work on certain kinds of Damage. That adder negates Damage Negation.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: VPP active point costs

 

As for the book saying that the control cost affects active points' date=' I didnt see it anywhere, I only see it in hero designer, which was why I though at first it was a bug, but really couldnt find confirmation one way or another. [/quote']

 

Hero Designer is not the rules, so I suspect it uses this AP structure to make the algorithms run smoother. One might just as easily assert that the pool and control cost each have their own separate AP, or that Multipowers have to add their slot and pool costs, before limitations, together to compute their AP's. By the book rules, I don't believe frameworks have AP's. Individual powers do. In fact, it is the individual power's AP that determines how it uses the framework's pool.

[Christopher]

Re: VPP active point costs

 

No' date=' as far as I know there is no way to bypass DR unless it is Limited so that it doesn't work on certain kinds of Damage. That adder negates Damage Negation.[/quote']

Sorry, mispelled. Meant DN.

 

But' date=' most competant GMs will have villians that have weaknesses exploitable by other members of the party that dont have a VPP, or villians with no weaknesses, or weaknesses you cant find out in advance at least as often as the first option.[/quote']

That's not a sign of competence. That's a sign of not being able to give the caracters fitting enemys.

Also: Why are you always so focussed on attacks/battle. There is a hell of lot of other powers that can be nice. With Fire VPP you could do things like:

Images (Thermosense): When you know the enemy uses it, confuse him (Most Military do in the darkness)

A barier made of flames (would have to look up how to do this in the rules)

Change Environment, based on heat, lowering humidity or producing a "blinding" light effect (Not Flash, but PER Malus)

A "growth" like effect, where you produce a big "falming man" form around you, while hovering in the middle.

A drain based on an "heat-stroke" effect (STUN and REC).

Summon/duplication for small "burning devils" for various tasks.

And that are just Ideas i got by going across the power list one time.

 

There is more to Power Frameworks than Blasts, HTH, Resistant Protection and Movement Powers.

So maybe a VPP is a bad choice for those who don't have a lot of imagination. For those who have more ideas than they could fit into a Multipower, it's the right investment and they wouldn't mind giving up the raw power. There are enough 14 DC or 7 SPD guys in the team anyway...

[ghost-angel]

Re: VPP active point costs

 

As for the book saying that the control cost affects active points, I didnt see it anywhere, I only see it in hero designer, which was why I though at first it was a bug, but really couldnt find confirmation one way or another.

 

-Kyrinthic

 

it's in the Errata here on the website.

[Kyrinthic]

Re: VPP active point costs

 

That's not a sign of competence. That's a sign of not being able to give the caracters fitting enemys.

 

Are you trying to say a fitting enemy must always have a weakness that can only be easily exploited by a guy with a vpp and not the rest of the team? I cant say that I agree.

 

Also: Why are you always so focussed on attacks/battle. There is a hell of lot of other powers that can be nice. With Fire VPP you could do things like:

Images (Thermosense): When you know the enemy uses it, confuse him (Most Military do in the darkness)

A barier made of flames (would have to look up how to do this in the rules)

Change Environment, based on heat, lowering humidity or producing a "blinding" light effect (Not Flash, but PER Malus)

A "growth" like effect, where you produce a big "falming man" form around you, while hovering in the middle.

A drain based on an "heat-stroke" effect (STUN and REC).

Summon/duplication for small "burning devils" for various tasks.

And that are just Ideas i got by going across the power list one time.

 

Because basic attacks are the easiest to compare. Sure there are a ton of other effects, all of which will benefit from 30% more active points to build with. the list you show could just as easily be a multipower and do everything on it better.

 

Yes, I get that you _can_ build something new for every fight, but you are still working under a set of limitations as to what you can bring with you in each fight, and how much preparation you have for a given fight. Only very rarely will it be enough more carefully built to exploit enemy weaknesses that it will be better than the 30% higher active point power set build with an elcon or a multipower.

 

You can do a ton with a 20 point VPP from utility, but thats really a whole other discussion, I'm referring to trying to build a character that actually wants to use a vpp as a primary combat power, and really having a lot of trouble seeing how it could be competative in combat.

 

Out of combat sure, but then out of combat your skills are likely as important as your powers, and again, there isnt a lot that a 20 point vpp or a well rounded group of heroes couldnt do anyhow.

 

There is more to Power Frameworks than Blasts, HTH, Resistant Protection and Movement Powers.

So maybe a VPP is a bad choice for those who don't have a lot of imagination. For those who have more ideas than they could fit into a Multipower, it's the right investment and they wouldn't mind giving up the raw power. There are enough 14 DC or 7 SPD guys in the team anyway...

 

And of course it ends in pretending I dont have a lot of imagination because I use easily compared power types. Sure, you keep feigning superiority because your actual arguments dont hold water.

 

-Kyrinthic