Ability Guidelines for Cosmically Powerful Characters (6e)

[Drolyt]

I'm new to Hero System, and I have a pretty good grasp about how the system works, but not how it all comes together. In particular I'm not clear on how to judge power levels. Firstly, does anyone have a good idea of how to expand the ability guidelines on page 35 of the main rulebook to cover characters in excess of 750 character points? In the same vein, are there guidelines for abilities not on the table, namely Recovery, Endurance, Body, and Stun (or do those count as characteristics?). Finally, how do different power levels compare? How much more powerful is Very High Powered Super compared to a High Powered or Standard Super? Standard, Powerful, and Very Powerful Heroic Characters? Etc.? Another thing that would help is an idea of what power level various fictional characters would be at. Say, Batman, Superman, Ironman, Goku, Vash the Stampede, Sephiroth, Ganondorf, The Joker, Bruce Lee (not exactly fictional), Green Lantern, The Hulk, Naruto, Sherlock Holmes, The Martian Manhunter, Gandalf, Sauron, Aragorn, Harry Potter etc. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[dmjalund]

Re: Ability Guidelines for Cosmically Powerful Characters (6e)

 

1) I think Champions Beyond will cover that.

2) Yes they do count as Characteristics

3) The former tends to trounce the latter

4) these characters have examples on this forum at different power levels. so there is no specific answer for that.

[Drolyt]

Re: Ability Guidelines for Cosmically Powerful Characters (6e)

 

First off, thank you for your reply.

1) I think Champions Beyond will cover that.

Is that a new sourcebook? I've never heard of it.

2) Yes they do count as Characteristics

Cool.

3) The former tends to trounce the latter

Well yes, but by how much? The RPG I'm most familiar with is D&D 3e/3.5e, and that game normally covers 20 levels, where 2 levels is a huge difference and 5 levels puts you on another plane of power, and that isn't even talking epic levels or the Deities and Demigods rules.

4) these characters have examples on this forum at different power levels. so there is no specific answer for that.

Alright, a better question. What, roughly, does a given character type represent? What can someone do at Standard Superpower level? Cosmically Powerful, etc.

[dmjalund]

Re: Ability Guidelines for Cosmically Powerful Characters (6e)

 

1) Champions Beyond is in the coming soon department

3 & 4) This will differ between comics and writers, so there are no hard & fast rules. All I can say is figure how hard you want your Uber-super to trounce the PCs (or is the uber Super the PC) and build accordingly.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Ability Guidelines for Cosmically Powerful Characters (6e)

 

re: Fictional Characters

 

As has already pointed out, there are a ton of different version of several familiar characters already posted on the board and several member's personal websites have collections of contributions of well known characters (ex: http://surbrook.devermore.net/adaptationscomic/comicchar.html alone has 4 versions of Superman). Known characters can usually be fit into whatever power level of game or setting a writer or GM wants. Let's compare the Animated Justice League to The Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes. Justice League had a more serious tone but the characters were actually far lower powered* than their Marvel counterparts (Superman is close to his limits when rescuing a jumbo-jet in flight) vs. (Thor gently lowers Manhattan Island back to the ground after Graviton had lifted it into the sky).

 

* This is surprising since the most common complaint against DC has always been that the characters are TOO powerful. On average, in the comics at least, this is true. But versions of ANY character can be scaled to nearly any power level.

[Drolyt]

Re: Ability Guidelines for Cosmically Powerful Characters (6e)

 

re: Fictional Characters

 

As has already pointed out, there are a ton of different version of several familiar characters already posted on the board and several member's personal websites have collections of contributions of well known characters (ex: http://surbrook.devermore.net/adaptationscomic/comicchar.html alone has 4 versions of Superman). Known characters can usually be fit into whatever power level of game or setting a writer or GM wants. Let's compare the Animated Justice League to The Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes. Justice League had a more serious tone but the characters were actually far lower powered* than their Marvel counterparts (Superman is close to his limits when rescuing a jumbo-jet in flight) vs. (Thor gently lowers Manhattan Island back to the ground after Graviton had lifted it into the sky).

 

* This is surprising since the most common complaint against DC has always been that the characters are TOO powerful. On average, in the comics at least, this is true. But versions of ANY character can be scaled to nearly any power level.

First, thanks for the reply. You make a good point, I was very surprised the first time I saw the Animated Justice League because of how limited their powers seem to be. Still, it would be nice if the various point totals had something more concrete as far as power level. I can get some idea by looking at maximum DCs, the strength necessary to achieve those DCs, and active point limits on powers, and I guess that's the best I can do.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Ability Guidelines for Cosmically Powerful Characters (6e)

 

Just a note: Champions Beyond is NOT about Cosmicly Powerful Superheroes. It is about Aliens in the Champions Universe. It does not, from the outline Steve gave, provide character guidelines of any sort.

[dmjalund]

Re: Ability Guidelines for Cosmically Powerful Characters (6e)

 

I stand corrected. You may have better luck (for 5th Edition) by looking at Galactic Champions.

[Drolyt]

Re: Ability Guidelines for Cosmically Powerful Characters (6e)

 

Just a note: Champions Beyond is NOT about Cosmicly Powerful Superheroes. It is about Aliens in the Champions Universe. It does not' date=' from the outline Steve gave, provide character guidelines of any sort.[/quote']

That's too bad. So does anyone know if there are official guidelines for cosmically powered characters? If not, anyone have some homebrewed that they use? Failing that, I'm thinking of just taking all the min/max values for 650, finding a ratio of power point to stat, and extrapolating out. For some reason I feel this won't work right, but it's the best I can come up without actually running a bunch of cosmically powered games (which I'll get around to, but I'd like to have it right the first time). Thanks for your help.

re: Fictional Characters

 

As has already pointed out, there are a ton of different version of several familiar characters already posted on the board and several member's personal websites have collections of contributions of well known characters (ex: http://surbrook.devermore.net/adaptationscomic/comicchar.html alone has 4 versions of Superman). Known characters can usually be fit into whatever power level of game or setting a writer or GM wants. Let's compare the Animated Justice League to The Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes. Justice League had a more serious tone but the characters were actually far lower powered* than their Marvel counterparts (Superman is close to his limits when rescuing a jumbo-jet in flight) vs. (Thor gently lowers Manhattan Island back to the ground after Graviton had lifted it into the sky).

 

* This is surprising since the most common complaint against DC has always been that the characters are TOO powerful. On average, in the comics at least, this is true. But versions of ANY character can be scaled to nearly any power level.

True. I was surprised first time I saw Justice League. What I've come up with is to look at what powers at the higher end of maximum active point ranges can do, what attacks at the higher end of DCs can do to the environment, and what characters with strength capable of dealing that much damage can do. Those are the best benchmarks I can come up with, since many stats like OCV are much more difficult to relate to the real world. Thanks for your help.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Ability Guidelines for Cosmically Powerful Characters (6e)

 

In HERO there are no official guidelines for power levels (other than ones set by the GM).

 

Points are only a general idea of how powerful a character is, to get a good measurement you must look at the character sheet as a whole, including: Speed, DCs, CVs, Defenses, and to a lesser extent powers, frameworks and characteristics.

 

I've played 700-800 point 5th edition characters before. My group also has some balancing guidelines for high powered (500+) characters.

 

It seems like from your post, you'd like us to post 2 characters and explain how to look at them and compare their effectiveness. Is this correct?

[Drolyt]

Re: Ability Guidelines for Cosmically Powerful Characters (6e)

 

In HERO there are no official guidelines for power levels (other than ones set by the GM).

 

Points are only a general idea of how powerful a character is, to get a good measurement you must look at the character sheet as a whole, including: Speed, DCs, CVs, Defenses, and to a lesser extent powers, frameworks and characteristics.

 

I've played 700-800 point 5th edition characters before. My group also has some balancing guidelines for high powered (500+) characters.

 

It seems like from your post, you'd like us to post 2 characters and explain how to look at them and compare their effectiveness. Is this correct?

Yes, if someone could do that it would be wonderful. I guess my problem is that while the character creation process is fairly intuitive, and combat doesn't look too difficult, I'm having trouble gauging how effective characters would be in different situations, especially combat. Which is important since if I run Hero with my local group I'll be the GM, and I don't know anyone with experience with Hero (I'm the one who introduced everyone to D&D a few years ago). Another thing, not really related to the main topic, is there a place to go to find play by post or chat games of Hero? Anyways thanks for your help.

[Christopher]

Re: Ability Guidelines for Cosmically Powerful Characters (6e)

 

Welcome in the Forum.

 

How about "just" using High-Powered Champions for starters? Like you said, you have no experience so perhaps it isn't a good idea to go beyond the point where the books can help you (and they still had room to grow by 50% before the books would stop giving you guidelines).

AFAIK what get's build most often in the forum are builds for Standart Superheroic (400 pt), so even 500 is above the normal super hero. (normal and superhero, that are words you don't hear very often in the same sentence).

 

The "Galactic Champions" is actually just a sub-genre of normal champions. For Genre books I would go for..."Galactic Champions".

Edit: Ups, that was a 5th or earlier edition book. Hadn't activated the 6th Edition Filter when finding this. Then perhaps the Champions setting is the best starting point

 

The best tip I can give you: Stick to the archetype, stick to the limits from 6E1 34/35 and ask if you don't know. But frankly that is all I know, as I haven't played one game yet...

[Drolyt]

Re: Ability Guidelines for Cosmically Powerful Characters (6e)

 

Welcome in the Forum.

 

How about "just" using High-Powered Champions for starters? Like you said, you have no experience so perhaps it isn't a good idea to go beyond the point where the books can help you (and they still had room to grow by 50% before the books would stop giving you guidelines).

AFAIK what get's build most often in the forum are builds for Standart Superheroic (400 pt), so even 500 is above the normal super hero. (normal and superhero, that are words you don't hear very often in the same sentence).

 

The "Galactic Champions" is actually just a sub-genre of normal champions. For Genre books I would go for..."Galactic Champions".

Edit: Ups, that was a 5th or earlier edition book. Hadn't activated the 6th Edition Filter when finding this. Then perhaps the Champions setting is the best starting point

 

The best tip I can give you: Stick to the archetype, stick to the limits from 6E1 34/35 and ask if you don't know. But frankly that is all I know, as I haven't played one game yet...

Thanks for the reply. I'm planning on starting with 400 point heroes, but I like worldbuilding so I was planning on stating up important NPCs, some of which would be in the Cosmically Powerful Range (not many though). That can be put on hold I suppose.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Ability Guidelines for Cosmically Powerful Characters (6e)

 

Total Character Points are less of a measure of POWER than the Active Points of given powers the character possesses.

 

In general terms, every 5 points in HERO represents a more or less doubling of power. So STR 20 is 5 times stronger than STR 15, etc.

 

You could have a 750 point character who only has at best a 50 AP power, which would be significantly less powerful than a 250 point character who had a 75 AP power.

 

The best guidelines for raw power in HERO are the active points a character has in their best offense and defense powers, if that is applicable. Some powers break the mold on this (summoning, change environment, etc.) but for the most part, a 75 AP Attack vs. a 75 AP defense should be a fair match once it comes down to rolling dice. But even that can be further skewed by skill levels, CV, and any of the less straightforward powers.

[Christopher]

Re: Ability Guidelines for Cosmically Powerful Characters (6e)

 

Total Character Points are less of a measure of POWER than the Active Points of given powers the character possesses.

 

In general terms, every 5 points in HERO represents a more or less doubling of power. So STR 20 is 5 times stronger than STR 15, etc.

 

You could have a 750 point character who only has at best a 50 AP power, which would be significantly less powerful than a 250 point character who had a 75 AP power.

 

The best guidelines for raw power in HERO are the active points a character has in their best offense and defense powers, if that is applicable. Some powers break the mold on this (summoning, change environment, etc.) but for the most part, a 75 AP Attack vs. a 75 AP defense should be a fair match once it comes down to rolling dice. But even that can be further skewed by skill levels, CV, and any of the less straightforward powers.

Seconded.

 

Active Points, especially in a high powered game, is often the best thing to look at.

About CSL and Martial Arts: There a just a way to add Active Points to attack. Every +1 DC equals +5 Active Points for an attack.

So a 50 AP attack that has +5 DC is equall to a 75 AP Attack with no Bonusses. Most normal maneuvers could allow to go over that cap (as they all have severe drawbacks), but Martial Maneuvers or STR that can be added are simply part of the overall AP a attack power is worth.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Ability Guidelines for Cosmically Powerful Characters (6e)

 

Herocentral.net has some pbps, and I'll try and get around to posting up some chars sometime this weekend.

 

Edit: Active points can be a really terrible way to gauge characters. Some advantages are not DC increasing (e.g. 0 END), and that will skew your findings. Stick to evaluating Damage Classes. For defenses, i suggest total DEF rather than resistant (most fights end with people unconcious rather than dead). 1 DC of damage negation is ~ 3 points of DEF (3.5 stun, but is worse at preventing body damage). Damage negation is either over or under priced AP wise depedning on the DC/DEF and point totals of your game. In 600pt characters, 50% DR is really good, in 100pt Characters it's a worse buy.

[Christopher]

Re: Ability Guidelines for Cosmically Powerful Characters (6e)

 

Edit: Active points can be a really terrible way to gauge characters. Some advantages are not DC increasing (e.g. 0 END)' date=' and that will skew your findings. Stick to evaluating Damage Classes.[/quote']

Don't underestimate the usefullness of such an attack with Multiattack or a Naked Autofire Advantage. Especially when the target is entangeled, (TK)grabbed, flashed...

For anything that affects how damage is handeled (Avad, Penetration, etc...) the AP's seems way more usefull than the DC.

[Fireg0lem]

Re: Ability Guidelines for Cosmically Powerful Characters (6e)

 

You might find this helpful: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/84985-The-Rule-of-F(X)

[Christopher]

Re: Ability Guidelines for Cosmically Powerful Characters (6e)

 

You might find this helpful: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/84985-The-Rule-of-F(X)

I haven't completely read it jet but I see the following two things:

A well worked out system that should keep the balance.

A unwieldy monster of complex math

 

I not that unfirm in math, but seriously:

That is so complex, it would be better to teach a computer how to do the math. Do you have anything to help with that part (Excel-Sheet, Programm)?

[Fireg0lem]

Re: Ability Guidelines for Cosmically Powerful Characters (6e)

 

Do you have anything to help with that part (Excel-Sheet' date=' Programm)?[/quote']

 

A PhD (well, almost) . Aside from ACV, it's not too bad, but yeah, the extra math on top of character creation is the main drawback. It does help to approach it as "select picks, then build the character."

 

An excel sheet might be handy, and one of my players might eventually make one, but I don't have the know-how to do it myself.

[dmjalund]

Re: Ability Guidelines for Cosmically Powerful Characters (6e)

 

whenever I see Rule Of X. I think of an alternate Marvel Universe where Charlse Xavier rules the world

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Ability Guidelines for Cosmically Powerful Characters (6e)

 

I wonder if there is any way to adjust the formula to include a variable for high END use and Extra Time requirements (like Pushing & Haymaker)?

[Tasha]

Re: Ability Guidelines for Cosmically Powerful Characters (6e)

 

Actually it's pretty easy.

 

First you need to decide how many Damage Classes are going to be average. ie I'll go with 20DCs for easy math. This is a 20d6 Blast or a 6.5d6 Killing attack.

 

Then find Avg Stun rolled by Multiplying the DC's by 3.5 (which is the average stun roll on 1d6). ie 70stun average. 20 body.

 

Next Multiply the DCs by 2 and then by 2.5 to get average Def and Max Def. ie 40 average Def, 50 Maximum Def

 

To get average Con required not be stunned by an average hit. Subtract your average Stun from your average Def ie 30 Con is required to not be stunned by an average roll

 

Avg Stun requred to survive Avg Spd/2 (roundup) hits Divide Spd by 2 rounding up. Taking that number and multiplying it by Def - Avg Stun (ie Avg Spd 6. So a character must have 3 x (70 - 40) = 90 stun

 

Avg Body really depends on how much rDef the GM is allowing. If you have enough rDef to never take body from an Average Killing attack. Then there's no reason to buy it beyond the basic level of 10. Otherwise you can use the Avg Stun just substitute Average body (ie Killing attack D6 * 3.5) subtract average rDef multiply by SPD ie 7d6 Killing Attack = 25 body - 20rDef = 5 BODY * (SPD /2) = 15 BODY minimum. (if you have a lot of Killing attacks you can pump that number up as you like).

 

That's how I would figure it out If it were a game I was either running or playing in.

 

For endurance, I recommend that you have enough End to run your powers (Attack, Defense, and Movement) for at least 1 turn if not 2 turns. Recovery should roughly be around 1/4 of your end or Stun total that's pretty rough though.

[Tasha]

Re: Ability Guidelines for Cosmically Powerful Characters (6e)

 

I haven't completely read it jet but I see the following two things:

A well worked out system that should keep the balance.

A unwieldy monster of complex math

 

I not that unfirm in math, but seriously:

That is so complex, it would be better to teach a computer how to do the math. Do you have anything to help with that part (Excel-Sheet, Programm)?

 

A well thought out Rule of X should be simple enough that you can do the math in your head.

 

I usually have an average DC and Avg SPD. each SPD pt above average removes 2 DC from the Max, and each spd below avg allows you to add 2 DC to max. Generally that's what I like to see. I have a spreadsheet somewhere that shows how much damage per spd that a character does.

 

I don't usually worry as much about CV. The game really only works well if everyone is within a certain range of CV (OCV vs DCV). ONce you have 4 DCV over your opposition you are nearly unhittable and the converse is true.

[Christopher]

Re: Ability Guidelines for Cosmically Powerful Characters (6e)

 

I have a spreadsheet somewhere that shows how much damage per spd that a character does.

Easy to do in excel, but had to put it in a zip-file for the forum:

[ATTACH]38400[/ATTACH]