Group equipment MP or VPP

[Martin2]

My Teleport player who also has a rich background (only 5 CP’s = 500,000 a year) keeps bringing up “why can I not go out and buy X, Y, Z as you can buy this for only a few hundred or low thousands in the shops”. Having repeatedly tried to explain money doesnot buy powers but character points do! I just need to somehow make him happy!

 

So as his character does not have enough free points to develop his own multipower or VPP and to make him a joint Gadgeteer / Teleporter character would mean a total character rewrite. I though how could I build a joint equipment pool?

 

The theory being that they group invest CP’s into a joint power pool and then all get to pick 1 or 2 pieces of “equipment” from a list that they have in the base. Things sort of like aqua gear (environmentalsurvival), Infrared goggles, Dark glasses (Flash defence) etc.

 

The problembeing how to cost a group multipower when they could be all be using it at the same time?

 

I thought possibly CP max and then 10 fixed slots. So a 10CP max equipment possibility would cost 20CP (but boughtindividually would be 100CP for a 5 person group)? 20CP max equipment would cost 40CP?

 

Any commentswould be appreciated.

[Christopher]

Re: Group equipment MP or VPP

 

Have you considered giving the base the VPP?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Group equipment MP or VPP

 

What kinds of equipment does he want to buy? Maybe the easiest answer is to let him buy it, but treat it like real world equipment.

 

Sure, you all have Scuba gear. One good superpowered hit, and the scuba gear is trashed...potentially a problem if you're 150' underwater and needed that scuba equipment to breathe.

 

Guns? Nothing available on the market is going to pack the kind of DC's needed to be a competitive Super - and you're subject to the weapon familiarity rules.

 

Body armor? OK - but the first attack that penetrates its DEF destroys it, like any other focus.

 

Oh, and let's not forget villains and agencies also have money!

[Martin2]

Re: Group equipment MP or VPP

 

Is it possible? I do not totally understand VPP's (I use MP's) and even less if the base has the VPP and the PC's draw on it separately.

[Christopher]

Re: Group equipment MP or VPP

 

Perhaps there are still some alternatives:

- The Resource Points from APG 191. Unfortunaltely they are to complex to properly describe them here, you should take a look yourself.

 

- Just saying he has to give up the Money Perks, since it is not supposed to be used in superheroic games in the first place. Or take it away through in game evets (like a corruption affair, that once uncovered will let most of his money be freezed or seized by the state), but give him back his points.

 

- De-valuate "Real Items". Basically anything money buys is somehow inferior to point bought equipment. Real Armors one offer half protection against non-Real Attacks. Inversly, real weapons have to deal with 1.5 times the PD of non-real Protection.

You can avoid negative effects on your mooks by letting them buy their "weapons" and "armor" with points and Focus Limitation. That is the way it is actually done in Champions 6E with guys like the Human "Agent", "Soldier" and "Ninja".

[Martin2]

Re: Group equipment MP or VPP

 

- Just saying he has to give up the Money Perks, since it is not supposed to be used in superheroic games in the first place. Or take it away through in game evets (like a corruption affair, that once uncovered will let most of his money be freezed or seized by the state), but give him back his points.

 

He has the money for the background of being a rich inherited / moves in the right circles etc. So I can not take that of him (but he could have the possibility of his secret ID getting out and him losing it )

 

- De-valuate "Real Items". Basically anything money buys is somehow inferior to point bought equipment. Real Armors one offer half protection against non-Real Attacks. Inversly, real weapons have to deal with 1.5 times the PD of non-real Protection.

You can avoid negative effects on your mooks by letting them buy their "weapons" and "armor" with points and Focus Limitation. That is the way it is actually done in Champions 6E with guys like the Human "Agent", "Soldier" and "Ninja".

 

OK I have read the VPP rules again and they sort of work the best for the situation. I just need the come up with rules of how to fill up their pool so they can take a reasonable amount of equipment with them. Possibly Focus -1, real equipment and can break easily -1 (as Hugh sugested as well).

 

Also I found another rule that works agains him and will annoy him.

 

Teleport to a room that contains well ordered box system for easy access it costs you so much.

 

Teleport outside a room that is protected so you cannot teleport into it and you have to hit a button which opens the door in two hours (VPP can only be changed between scenes (takes hours) -1/4) means you can take 25% more!

 

The costing system seems to work totally againt this character.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Group equipment MP or VPP

 

I just need to somehow make him happy!

 

Actually, important point here ... no, you don't. He should be willing to accept the fact that Hero doesn't give you stuff you didn't pay points for. If you didn't pay points for a gun, you don't have one. That's how the game works.

 

That said, Hugh Neilson's idea has merit. He can buy all the mundane gear he wants ... but none of that is going to amount to jack squat in a super-battle.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Group equipment MP or VPP

 

The flip side of this issue is that the character has spent points on the Money perk. While that shouldn't be a game breaker, it should provide him with benefits commensurate with the 5 CP spent.

 

As far as a room he can teleport to and from, if we're just dealing with mundane gear, he's certainly spent the points on the Teleport (and should pay points for the base which contains this room). He has limited resources - $500,000 can buy a lot of mundane equipment, but he can't stock a Wal-Mart with that level of cash, or acquire military hardware, a private jet, etc.

 

Also, if this wealth is part of his secret ID, how does he buy Supers equipment without that being traced back. Off the shelf shouldn't be too big a deal. How many firearms permits will he be applying for? Where does all this stuff (if it's large/bulky) get shipped to in the name of his secret ID? Ras Al Ghul deduced Batman's identity by assessing the type of purchases needed for Batman's hardware and checking records for companies that matched the purchase profile. He's demanding realism for use of his wealth - realism cuts both ways.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Group equipment MP or VPP

 

Have you considered giving the base the VPP?

 

I wouldn't do this. To me this is very open to abuse. It's a way to buy point intensive powers with a focus limitation and the massive discount afforded by the way bases are bought by characters. Ideally, the balance would be that the character would not have access to the wave motion pistol in the middle of the adventure unless he packed it, but this guy can just pop out for a phase and come back with it. Here your player is simply looking for a way to be able to have just the right power on hand at any given moment. Not a bad concept, but those points should appear on his character sheet, with very little in the way of a point discount.

 

What kinds of equipment does he want to buy? Maybe the easiest answer is to let him buy it, but treat it like real world equipment.

 

Sure, you all have Scuba gear. One good superpowered hit, and the scuba gear is trashed...potentially a problem if you're 150' underwater and needed that scuba equipment to breathe.

 

Guns? Nothing available on the market is going to pack the kind of DC's needed to be a competitive Super - and you're subject to the weapon familiarity rules.

 

Body armor? OK - but the first attack that penetrates its DEF destroys it, like any other focus.

 

Oh, and let's not forget villains and agencies also have money!

 

Yes, this is the way to handle this if he insists on doing it solely using his Wealth perk.

 

Alternately, I would say that during his radiation accident rewrite, he has to buy a Multipower or VPP to cover his ability to teleport things to him. A good model for the Multipower is the utility belt build in the Equipment guide, or Nighthawk's character sheet from Champions or Champions Universe. The VPP is the cleaner way to go, but remember that the guy seems to want to do anything on the fly, which sounds like a Cosmic Pool to me, and that gets pricey fast. Anything more than a 30 or 40 point pool cost would probably break his budget.

 

 

Is it possible? I do not totally understand VPP's (I use MP's) and even less if the base has the VPP and the PC's draw on it separately.

 

Actually, important point here ... no, you don't. He should be willing to accept the fact that Hero doesn't give you stuff you didn't pay points for. If you didn't pay points for a gun, you don't have one. That's how the game works.

 

That said, Hugh Neilson's idea has merit. He can buy all the mundane gear he wants ... but none of that is going to amount to jack squat in a super-battle.

 

Yeah, you don't have to give him anything for free. It sounds like his character concept has changed a little, so give him a rewrite. That's well within the rules and the genre. Anyone remember the short-lived Dr. Pym character from the Avengers. He used the shrinking power of Pym particles to carry around tech objects and weapons in miniaturized form and then grew them to full size as needed. This is a major change from shrinking flying blaster with minor telepathy and mind control vs. insects. Actually Henry Pym has had more changes to his power set over the years than almost anyone I know in comics.

[Ice9]

Re: Group equipment MP or VPP

 

It's a tricky situation. I do feel that Wealth should have some effect. After all, he did spend actual points on it, it's not just purely a flavor ability. Same deal with Transform used to create objects.

[Orion]

Re: Group equipment MP or VPP

 

My Teleport player who also has a rich background (only 5 CP’s = 500' date='000 a year) keeps bringing up “why can I not go out and buy X, Y, Z as you can buy this for only a few hundred or low thousands in the shops”. Having repeatedly tried to explain money doesnot buy powers but character points do! I just need to somehow make him happy![/quote']

 

First, decide which is more important: blindly following the rules, or using common sense and making him happy. If the rules matter more, the only answer you need to give is "because I said so". This may or may not settle the problem, but it's the answer. Many players and GMs favor this approach, so it's not like you are going against the crowd. If common sense or happiness matter more, just let him buy anything that could normally be bought in your game world, but require that anything he carries with him be written down on the sheet, and anything in his storeroom be in an inventory list.

 

Allowing flashlights, IR goggles, GPS units, and such aren't going to be a problem. Super tech isn't going to be for sale in most campaigns, and so isn't a problem either. If anything, allowing equipment is a good way to use up his resources as it can be damaged are taken away. If he teleports back to get it, he loses time and action phases, and so is removed from combat.

 

Hero says you can't purchase gear in a supers campaign. No good reason why, but that's what is says, and going against this rule gives many people heartburn. But, agent-level and fantasy campaigns have always been allowed to buy gear. It doesn't hurt them any, so it's not going to hurt your supers campaign either if you choose to allow it.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Group equipment MP or VPP

 

It's a tricky situation. I do feel that Wealth should have some effect. After all' date=' he did spend actual points on it, it's not just purely a flavor ability. Same deal with Transform used to create objects.[/quote']

 

Typically, in my experience, Wealth helps with noncombat scenarios. "We need airline tickets to England so we can arrive incognito, instead of taking the team jet? Covered." "We all need formal wear to infiltrate the fancy-dress party and protect the ambassador? No problem." I kind of file it in the same category as background skills; they don't often do much on their own, but serve as a fine reason as to why you can do other things. "I'm going to pay someone to design and build me this new thing for my armor" sort of deals.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Group equipment MP or VPP

 

First, decide which is more important: blindly following the rules, or using common sense and making him happy. If the rules matter more, the only answer you need to give is "because I said so". This may or may not settle the problem, but it's the answer. Many players and GMs favor this approach, so it's not like you are going against the crowd. If common sense or happiness matter more, just let him buy anything that could normally be bought in your game world, but require that anything he carries with him be written down on the sheet, and anything in his storeroom be in an inventory list.

 

Allowing flashlights, IR goggles, GPS units, and such aren't going to be a problem. Super tech isn't going to be for sale in most campaigns, and so isn't a problem either. If anything, allowing equipment is a good way to use up his resources as it can be damaged are taken away. If he teleports back to get it, he loses time and action phases, and so is removed from combat.

 

Hero says you can't purchase gear in a supers campaign. No good reason why, but that's what is says, and going against this rule gives many people heartburn. But, agent-level and fantasy campaigns have always been allowed to buy gear. It doesn't hurt them any, so it's not going to hurt your supers campaign either if you choose to allow it.

 

It's a balance issue. In a heroic level campaign, the player only gets X number of points to do their concept justice. Most of those points go into stats and skills, with the occasional talent or super-skill power. If you spent a lot of your points on powers built as gear, you would be pretty pathetic if you lost your stuff.

 

In superheroic games, you get far more points to work with. Some players would be tempted to pump up their character's stats and skills, then drop 5 points on a wealth perk and then claim that they had all these other powers that were just things that he/she could buy at the Spy/PI store or on the black market.

 

Also, there is a certain genre consistency that has to be considered. Most superheroes are defined by their powers. Most heroic characters are defined by their training and experience. There is obviously some cross over, as there are superheroes who are essentially highly trained normals (Batman) and there are heroic- level characters that are basically low-powered supers (River Tam), but you get the idea. The question is is the character more about what he can do innately, or is he more about what he has trained himself to do by dint of effort. Though he is formidable without them, James Bond needs guns and tricked-out roadsters. Superman does not.

 

The only real confusion is that middle ground inhabited by the Punisher, Batman, and their ilk. They are both arguably heroic-level characters in superheroic settings. You could really approach either of them either way. I could do heroic version of either character that would play well in a Dark Champions game. In those cases, I would say tailor the concept to the world you are trying to simulate.

[Martin2]

Re: Group equipment MP or VPP

 

Thanks for the various feedback guys.

 

I have had all of these responses before as it is a regular theme for me on the forums.

 

I explain the rules then he says why not. I explain I have not miss read the rules as everyone else agrees with me.

 

I am going to try the VPP for the base with an effective -2 limitation for easily broken focus of the high tech kind and bulked out with an extra 10CP from his wealth option and then what ever the group want to add to it.

 

I will then get him to supply a list of what things he wants in his base store room. He will have to supply the method he wants to get hold of them. I will then say what he can have and number crunch it to the VPP limit and explain how much they can take with them and then explain it is non super tech and is costed for non super tech so will be damaged very easily.

 

I will also offer him a character rewrite as the campaign will stop as my scenario is coming to an end so they can have it all ready for the next game. If it ever happens!

[Christopher]

Re: Group equipment MP or VPP

 

It's a tricky situation. I do feel that Wealth should have some effect. After all' date=' he did spend actual points on it, it's not just purely a flavor ability. Same deal with Transform used to create objects.[/quote']

Change money Perk to Zero Cost. Use those points and some free to create the VPP.

 

I think here is a mayor disconnect betwenn what he wants to do and what he thinks is the way to do. 5 Points wealth is by no mean anywhere near a 70 Real Cost Gadged Pool. But the later is what he seems to want.

I think a gadget pool with the Limitation "Extra Time to Switch slots" (at least one full phase) and linked (Teleport, double use nessesary). The VPP Skill is PS: warehouse manager. When he does not make the roll, either he forgot to buy one (or they are all out) or he misremebered where he placed it an needs to take even time searching (1 Step up the time chart for every point missing in the roll).

Remind him that his character has a secret ID to uphold and fights crime even outside of playtime, so you can in fact forget to buy another flashlight.

[dsatow]

Re: Group equipment MP or VPP

 

I understand your conundrum. The money system described in 6e1 is really for role-playing and background. Not so much as a tool in battles or problem solving. That said, here are some of the things I have done to counter it. From now on, a mundane item is bought with money while a power is bought with points.

 

Mundane items tend to have the "real weapon" style limitation such that they will break, fail, and otherwise be undependable. If you want to simulate this, things like guns will typically jam on 16-17 and misfire on an 18 when rolling to hit. Devices like cellphones and scuba gear get easily damaged after taking a few normal body. Items bought with points are much more resistant to actions like this.

 

Ex: a mundane cell phone will be rendered inoperable if made wet by power of a water superpower relatively easily. A super power communicator would not have this issue.

 

Some players will buy things like tanks because they are filthy rich or similar military spec standards mundane items (say like GPS). Well, GPS signals can have problems, but not your superpower. Tanks when bought will get looked into by the ATF or other government agency. What government wants a person or entity hosting a well equipped private army not answerable to them within their borders? Even if the players have a good excuse to owning or using an aircraft carrier, the government will come sooner or later looking for a favor to pay back the sale or loan of the item in question. In other words, mundane items can have strings or complications attached to their use.

[Christopher]

Re: Group equipment MP or VPP

 

Ex: a mundane cell phone will be rendered inoperable if made wet by power of a water superpower relatively easily. A super power communicator would not have this issue.

that's not even half the ways to make it useless: Some areas simply have no reception. The enemy could make certain to knock out "normal" communication first, before doing a crime (thus delaying when the police arrives and heroes get informed): For that he could use a weak Jammer (something like darkness vs Radio perception, really cheap and even mundane tech), or just knock down the recpetion towers with a few blasts on casual level.

 

Most like just having a electro-super with active damage shield/protection aura would disrupt any mobile phone in a mile. Having such a thing is a minor side effect at best.

 

Normal humans are fragile in a superbattle. Normal Human gear that is even more fragile then their users, is like a piece of paper near a open flame.

[JmOz]

Re: Group equipment MP or VPP

 

I always felt it was to keep the genre. If you allow equipment to be purchased with points why have heat vision, I'll just have a flamethrower.

[Escafarc]

Re: Group equipment MP or VPP

 

Hero says you can't purchase gear in a supers campaign. No good reason why' date=' but that's what is says, and going against this rule gives many people heartburn. But, agent-level and fantasy campaigns have always been allowed to buy gear. It doesn't hurt them any, so it's not going to hurt your supers campaign either if you choose to allow it.[/quote']

In my "heroic" game I don't allow my players to just buy stuff with money I use the Resorce Point System, keep things balanced for us.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Group equipment MP or VPP

 

I always felt it was to keep the genre. If you allow equipment to be purchased with points why have heat vision' date=' I'll just have a flamethrower.[/quote']

 

Its all about character conception and special effects. Superman has heat vision, the Punisher has a flamethrower. Same basic power for the most part, just some different modifiers apllied to give them the right crunch. That is why the Hero is so good for modelling supers. You could in theory have players with both of those archetypes in the same game. Claerly point balancing would mean that the Superman clone would not be as powerful as the comics version, and the Punisher clone would generally have to be a lot less lethal and psychotic than his published counterpart, but they could coexist with those modifications on the same team. I love Champions.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Group equipment MP or VPP

 

First' date=' decide which is more important: blindly following the rules, or using common sense and making him happy. If the rules matter more, the only answer you need to give is "because I said so". This may or may not settle the problem, but it's the answer. Many players and GMs favor this approach, so it's not like you are going against the crowd. If common sense or happiness matter more, just let him buy anything that could normally be bought in your game world, but require that anything he carries with him be written down on the sheet, and anything in his storeroom be in an inventory list.[/quote']

 

Viewed another way, the player wants something for nothing. If his 5 points of wealth can provide him with unlimited access to useful equipment, then a character whose background includes "his grandfather was Zeus" should be able to demand divine intervention based on a 5 point perk related to that ancestry, shouldn't he?

 

The logical implications of a power set justify spending the points to have the ability. They do not grant abilities for free.

 

Allowing flashlights' date=' IR goggles, GPS units, and such aren't going to be a problem. Super tech isn't going to be for sale in most campaigns, and so isn't a problem either. If anything, allowing equipment is a good way to use up his resources as it can be damaged are taken away. If he teleports back to get it, he loses time and action phases, and so is removed from combat.[/quote']

 

I think it's important to establish the rules and the limits. It seems fine to allow characters free access to things like flashlights, IR goggles, GPS units, and such. However, should characters choosing to purchase such powers innately then receive a discount? How equitable is it for the guy who spent points on IR Vision to have IR goggles handed out to everyone else at no point cost when IR Vision becomes useful?

 

Hero says you can't purchase gear in a supers campaign. No good reason why' date=' but that's what is says, and going against this rule gives many people heartburn. But, agent-level and fantasy campaigns have always been allowed to buy gear. It doesn't hurt them any, so it's not going to hurt your supers campaign either if you choose to allow it.[/quote']

 

Whether this hurts agent or fantasy games depends on who you ask. I've certainly seen posts from gamers frustrated because the warrior gets his attacks and defenses for free and the wizard has to pay for basically the same abilities. Others find stacking magic on free gear creates too great an advantage for the wizard. Turakian Age cuts the cost of spells to 1/3 to achieve the desired balance in that setting. Some find that very effective, others not.

 

IIRC, the writeup of the Money perk suggests caution in games where gear is purchased with money, so this specific problem is recognized as an issue in those games as well.

[Orion]

Re: Group equipment MP or VPP

 

It's a balance issue. In a heroic level campaign' date=' the player only gets X number of points to do their concept justice. Most of those points go into stats and skills, with the occasional talent or super-skill power. If you spent a lot of your points on powers built as gear, you would be pretty pathetic if you lost your stuff.[/quote']

 

I would agree on the pathetic, but that's part of the tradeoff of using foci. While you have it, you can do more, but that is balanced by the times you don't have it around. If that is something the player can't deal with, they shouldn't use that type of character. It's a big reason why I don't play them, as it would drive me nuts.

 

As for the points, I realize I have a different outlook on the entire concept. I don't care what the point totals are. I don't even care if the points are ever added up. I only care about what the character can do. Doesn't matter to me if they are a mutant, magician, or rich guy with gadgets - what can they do today, during this scenario, is the key. If allowing a rich guy to buy gadgets makes him unbalanced compared to the other characters, give them more points, or just don't allow rich characters. If a guy off the street can rent scuba gear, but a player character cannot, I would argue it destroys some of the believability in the campaign world.

 

In superheroic games' date=' you get far more points to work with. Some players would be tempted to pump up their character's stats and skills, then drop 5 points on a wealth perk and then claim that they had all these other powers that were just things that he/she could buy at the Spy/PI store or on the black market. [/quote']

 

I'd allow this type of character without a second thought. In fact, I'd say you just described Batman. Whether he goes into his batcave and whips up a new item, or walks down to WalMart and buys it, makes no difference. The thing that seems to be the difference is that I am much more amenable to changes to the character on the fly. If the mentalist wants to pick up the agent's rifle and use it, I have no problem. If he wants to keep it for further adventures (or sell it on the black market), I'll let him. I don't care if he has spare points or not - the gun is just lying there on the ground waiting for anyone to pick it up. Now if the players are sensitive about the gadgeteer constantly revising his character, there can be a metagame agreement to not do these sort of things, or to not allow gadgeteers at all, but as GM I would never disallow it.

 

Also' date=' there is a certain genre consistency that has to be considered. Most superheroes are defined by their powers. Most heroic characters are defined by their training and experience. There is obviously some cross over, as there are superheroes who are essentially highly trained normals (Batman) and there are heroic- level characters that are basically low-powered supers (River Tam), but you get the idea. The question is is the character more about what he can do innately, or is he more about what he has trained himself to do by dint of effort. Though he is formidable without them, James Bond needs guns and tricked-out roadsters. Superman does not.[/quote']

 

Personally, I can't see how that this matters in the least, but will accept that it does to some. While it may matter to the character concept whether they are a trained normal, low-level super, or high-level super, it's what they can do that matters during play.

[Orion]

Re: Group equipment MP or VPP

 

Viewed another way' date=' the player wants something for nothing. If his 5 points of wealth can provide him with unlimited access to useful equipment, then a character whose background includes "his grandfather was Zeus" should be able to demand divine intervention based on a 5 point perk related to that ancestry, shouldn't he?[/quote']

 

I'd say yes, he can ask for intervention. Of course he can. The chance to get it, and how it would be implemented, would have to be worked out in the character concept beforehand. If filthy rich or divine ancestry is allowed, they should be allowed to use it to the logical ends. If you're not willing to allow it to be used logically, don't allow it in the campaign to start with. I don't like players reading minds, as I'm not good with dealing with this as a GM, and so discourage telepathy and clairvoyance type powers. I don't have a problem with them buying gear, so I allow it.

 

The logical implications of a power set justify spending the points to have the ability. They do not grant abilities for free.

 

It completely depends on how you approach roleplaying and character design. To me, everything starts at the character conception and writeup. If the writeup says the power set is X, and X logically means Y and Z, then the character automatically has Y and Z. Points don't matter - he has them. If I (or the other players) are uncomfortable with the idea of Y and Z, then concept X is not allowed. Perhaps the slightly different concept W must be used, or maybe the concept has to be abandoned. To bring in a different thread, if the character is invulnerable to fire in the concept and description, then it is invulnerable to all fire. The implementation of this does not matter, and for me at least, doesn't not have to even be implemented within the rules - just write down Invuln to Fire on the character sheet and be done with it. Whether this is an unbalanced character for the campaign is a totally different issue, and is judged separately.

 

If you start at the points, and go from there, I can accept your statement. I've never been in a campaign that does it that way, however. What can I do with 350 points vs what can I do. Equal points doesn't mean equal effectiveness, and characters of differing point levels is a goal, not a problem, to me. Given these, I don't worry if one character would cost more than another, just what they can do in concept.

 

I think it's important to establish the rules and the limits. It seems fine to allow characters free access to things like flashlights' date=' IR goggles, GPS units, and such. However, should characters choosing to purchase such powers innately then receive a discount? How equitable is it for the guy who spent points on IR Vision to have IR goggles handed out to everyone else at no point cost when IR Vision becomes useful?[/quote']

 

He always has it, and doesn't have to bother with a device that may have mechanical issues, not allow be around, etc. That's why he paid the points for a power, rather than just buying equipment. While I realize that some (many?) players would have an issue with this, I have never met one in person. It has never been an issue. It is also not an issue for one to have KS: City and another to just try and find the info on Google.

 

Whether this hurts agent or fantasy games depends on who you ask. I've certainly seen posts from gamers frustrated because the warrior gets his attacks and defenses for free and the wizard has to pay for basically the same abilities. Others find stacking magic on free gear creates too great an advantage for the wizard. Turakian Age cuts the cost of spells to 1/3 to achieve the desired balance in that setting. Some find that very effective' date=' others not.[/quote']

 

This is where the entire Hero system fails, in my opinion. Concentrating on points, rather than what can be done, will always cause this sort of problem. Points can be a useful rule of thumb, especially for new players and GMs, and so have value. But the flavor and balance of every campaign is different, and so using points often has issues. I tend to expect mages to have a large number of spells, but many will not be useful in combat, and almost all require concentration, gestures, and extra time. I think the warriors and mages are balanced in ability, but not are not even close in points. I could do a Turakian solution and cut spell costs, but find it easier to just ignore the spell costs from the beginning. Players choose warrior or mage based on what they want to play, not what is cheaper in points.

[Christopher]

Re: Group equipment MP or VPP

 

Concentrating on points' date=' rather than what can be done, will always cause this sort of problem. Points can be a useful rule of thumb, especially for new players and GMs, and so have value.[/quote']

And this Thread is about helping a new GM, dealing with a player who want's the effects of a 40 Control 40 Pool Vpp for a 5 Point Money Perk.

 

While the "No Points" approach is a valid way to play, it will not help Martin to deal with his Gadgeteer Teleporter who wants a lot of Stuff for free.

[casualplayer]

Re: Group equipment MP or VPP

 

Pushing even moderate amounts of money around puts you on all sorts of watchlists. Buy a car with cash and you are flagged as a drug dealer. Buy a truck full of guns or even a case of the right stuff and you are going to be scrutinized. That scrutiny has costs, one of which is forfeiting a personal life. Bruce Wayne spends billions making sure people don't know where he spends his billions. SHIELD had a passkey to Tony Stark's life because he had expensive, dangerous toys lying around.

 

I rarely charge points for Perks because I have always felt that the net gain for them should be close to zero. That important person you can call on can also call on you. Security clearances require background checks. Followers can be killed/destroyed/taken hostage. Vehicles can be killed/destroyed/taken hostage. And flashing cash can get you all the wrong kinds of attention.