Characters who Kill Redux: What would you do?

[J4y]

I can roll eyes too.

 

Apparently you can stick your fingers in your ears and make noises to drown out common sense too. Do you think every uncorrigible villian that 4C superheros ever fought, but didn't kill, never commited another crime off panel afterwards? <- see, appropriate because of the sheer sillyness you're spouting. 4C typifies schlock writers whose characters had blinders on. The anti-matter people is a perfect example, the writers couldn't even get something so simple right, heck, they couldn't even keep their characters powers straight from one issue to the next let alone have their poorly written monstrosities react half-intelligently to the consequences of their actions.

 

"Hi, my name is Superman, I know Darkseid is out there slaughtering billions and Lex Luthor is plotting somethin and I should be thinking of how to stop them, but I'm just going to kick back here and relax until someone points this fact out to me and forces me to do something about it. Until someone NOTICES I'm not living up to my responsisiblities, I don't have to actually do anything! Hoo yeah! *yawn* Where are the donuts?"

[Chuckg]

Look, if you want realism and not four-color, run your game however the hell you want. We can't tell you not to, and we can't tell you what to enjoy or not to enjoy.

 

However, the same thing also applies going from you to us, so enough with the continual broken record about how one of our preferred genres is 'stupid', 'schlock', 'bad writing', or anything else.

 

Now, do you have anything *new* to contribute?

[gewing]

The problem I have is PUre 4 color is only a little more interesting to me than Richie Rich was as a kid.

 

edit

 

I was thinking further on my post. One of the problems i have with 4-color is kind of difficult for ME to really describe.

 

The best solution I ever saw was Terja's scaling campaign that Dean Schomshak and the guys played. But more on that later.

 

In true 4 color genre (imo) NORMAL people CANNOT affect supers in any direct harmful way. If the character sneaks into a warehouse looking for the evidence against the crime boss, the night watchman with his .38 (if he is just a honest Joe doing his job) not only cannot hit or hurt the character, the character can disable him without harming him significantly.

 

If there is some kind of mix-up or mind control situation and the Army is sent after the characters, even tanks won't actually harm them.

 

Now, I guess all characters could be made at 450 plus points, even the "unarmored" ones could have 7+ points resistant PD, etc.

 

But...

 

Do I really want to play where the characters are the untouchable "gods" (note small g) who affect the lives of the "mortals" beneath them? In some ways, that is what many games seem to be. Look at the Norse Myths. Loki and the Giants are the supervillains...

 

damn, I really didn't intend to get going like this. I do understand to some level the appeal of 4color. But in many ways I like things a LITTLE more "gritty."

 

It can easily get out of hand. Over the summer I played in a D-20 modern game. I came in late, and there were some real problems with the campaign. The ref was used to D&D, and all the players (except me) were too. NOt enough effort was made to explain our role in the organization we were in. Several of the players basically were thinking "Modern D&D" I misunderstood our role to think we were more like "Bureau 13" or a low end "La Femme Nikita" group.

 

We killed too many of the gangsters who were involved in the conspiracies we were investigating. After he and I talked a few times, the Ref was bringing things back under control, but then school started. Our schedules conflict so I just get to hear about the D&D they are playing while I am at work.

 

Originally posted by Trebuchet

No argument there. But in true four color comics, the villain isn't killed by the heroes but by his own hubris. Once that line is crossed, it's not really four color any more. At that point where it settles is a wide spectrum. Four color is like virginity: Once you've lost it, it's gone for good.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by JohnOSpencer

My current PC, Perfection, would kill him. He's still learning, the "don't kill" part of being a hero. He tries hard, buy when it comes down to it, he will kill without remorse.

Of course, my GM is not running a strictly four color campaign. We don't usaully capture villians, heck we're lucky if we win the fight. If we were playing a strictly four color campaign, I would try harder not to kill.

 

John Spencer

As long as everyone knows what the genre conventions are.

[cutsleeve]

having super powers, gadgets, magic, mystic whapping stone of the gods, or even a bad attitude with cutlery that can spring from your fists does not make a person a hero.

 

on this issue i have to say i have created characters that would both had the capability to execute powerful prisoners if called to and would do so. But i have also made characters who would not do it. I have also made characters who would may or may not do it. what is the differance in these characters why would one do it and another not and yet another have difficulty deciding.

 

Those who would do it are generally soldier characters they kill because that is either their job or because that is what they have chosen to do they arent hero's nor do they claim to be hero's they are soldiers in other words killers with a cause. the other one who would have trouble with it are like the average super hero he might think it is neccesary but have trouble convincing themselves that they should do it in the end they are ending a life and cant ever take it back.

 

the last of these characters are those who wouldnt kill these arent characters who live in a rose colored world they are characters who know its black dirty and dingy and try to be better then that. The do not kill for many reasons because they can take life easily in fact but they choose not to but what if theyre wrong. thats the reason what if theyre wrong they arent gods they arent able to see into the mind of others nor know if that person couldnt change their lives in the future. even if the have telepathy and can delve the mind and have clairsentiance and can fortell the future thses are never absolutes if they where then there would be no room for things like hope, reason, humanity, or compassion. Every single man and woman on this world is evil by nature they are they are greedy, envious, hateful, and vengeful and all you can do it try and be better then that try and move beyond it.

 

Thats what it means to be a hero. Instead of taking life a hero seeks to preserve life and hope to try and change the world into a better place. when one claims to be a defender of peace and hope and the future kills they disregard all of these things. He has no hope that the one he kills can chage he shows he is a defender of peace at the edge of the sword and shows he had no desire to see if the future proves better then today.

 

A hero tries his hardest, laying down his own saftey and life, to do what is right to make sure people can live and hopes that their efforts will make the lives of the people of the future, the children of today, better. strange and unusualy powers does not make someone a hero its perseverance and dedication to life.

[gewing]

That may be what it takes to be a perfect 4-color superhero, but even Christ said that in some cases a man should sell his cloak and buy a sword.

 

All violence is not evil. All killing is not "murder."

 

I have usually played military or police characters. There are good reasons for it.

 

 

 

 

 

Originally posted by cutsleeve

snip.

 

Thats what it means to be a hero. Instead of taking life a hero seeks to preserve life and hope to try and change the world into a better place. when one claims to be a defender of peace and hope and the future kills they disregard all of these things. He has no hope that the one he kills can chage he shows he is a defender of peace at the edge of the sword and shows he had no desire to see if the future proves better then today.

 

A hero tries his hardest, laying down his own saftey and life, to do what is right to make sure people can live and hopes that their efforts will make the lives of the people of the future, the children of today, better. strange and unusualy powers does not make someone a hero its perseverance and dedication to life.

[Chuckg]

> All violence is not evil. All killing is not "murder."

 

Nobody's said that it is.

 

We have said that heroes intentionally killing villains is not four-color... which is the truth. We have *not* said that everything that isn't four-color is automatically eeeeeeeeeeee-vil.

 

OTOH, some of us have, as DMs, suffered through campaigns where everybody seemed to playing a psychotic tortured loner who cloned either Wolverine or the Punisher -- simultaneously -- and as such, we're not as desperately in search of 'realism' as some others.

 

My own theory of gaming is that while I demand a high degree of verisimilitude and plausibility, if I want *realism* then I need to leave the gaming table and go open a window. I go to the gaming table to get *away* from the grimmer aspects of reality, not to indulge in them.

[cutsleeve]

exactly

 

i didnt say killing was evil sometimes it is neccesary i agree. I have created paramilitary/soldier type characters also. they dont say they are hero's they are soldiers they kill thats what they do. they care who they kill but when it comes down to it all people are equal they try to kill you you try to kill them no remourse no bad feelings no anger or hatred or ill feeling either thats what being a soldier is.

 

but the characters i create as hero's dont kill if someone has to die then thats for the governing body to decide not him. If the state says he has to die then its the duty of the state to do it. its the states responcibility to be able to or to hire an executioner who can do it properly. its not for my character to play god nor judge. He doesnt stand above the people and say "i have decided the fate of the puny mortals fear and beware of my wrath."

 

otherwise he deminishes the authority of those he is serving and trying to help. they might as well shrug off the pomposity of being a hero and just declare themselves gods. They sure have the Super Powers to do it.

[Trebuchet]

Heroes always at least try to do the right thing. That what they do is not always right merely proves they are mortal.

 

I'm with Chuckg. There's no reason to be condescending towards people who want to play in four color campaigns. I, like many others, play to escape reality. If I want to see reality, I'll just step out my front door. Roleplaying gives me a chance to escape just as a good book or movie does, but in a way far more personal. I don't get to influence the course of a book or movie.

[Brandi]

I think what we're bumping into here is really a semantics issue. What most folks here mean by '4-color' in the context of Champions games is the kind of comic storylines you saw in the Silver (and often Golden) Age, where there's lots of mayhem and property destruction and yet very few people really get hurt and almost never get killed (I think the Death of Gwen Stacey in Spiderman was the beginning of the end for that).

 

Batman's an odd case 'cause he's run the range from being an unusually tough and gritty hero for the Golden Age, to being as silly as any Silver Age silly hero got (I have some good examples in another thread here) and then back to very gritty again starting in the 1970s.

 

Perhaps we should start using the phrase 'Silver Age' instead? It'll be hard to break a habit...

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Brandi

I think what we're bumping into here is really a semantics issue. What most folks here mean by '4-color' in the context of Champions games is the kind of comic storylines you saw in the Silver (and often Golden) Age, where there's lots of mayhem and property destruction and yet very few people really get hurt and almost never get killed (I think the Death of Gwen Stacey in Spiderman was the beginning of the end for that).

 

Batman's an odd case 'cause he's run the range from being an unusually tough and gritty hero for the Golden Age, to being as silly as any Silver Age silly hero got (I have some good examples in another thread here) and then back to very gritty again starting in the 1970s.

 

Perhaps we should start using the phrase 'Silver Age' instead? It'll be hard to break a habit...

No. 4 Color still exists. It's not simply Silver Age. A 4 Color campaign can dip into grittier topics without turning into the Punisher. I would argue that Spider Man didn't stop being 4 Color because Gwen Stacy died.

[cutsleeve]

well i havent played recently because its hard to find a group where i live or get together with people but when i did i very rarely played in a four color setting. but the setting i did play in was like the real world if you murdered someone and their where witnesses then 75% of the time you would be in major trouble with the law thats life. Didnt mean that you would actually be convicted but you also wouldnt just walk away with no reputation problems. plus you dont just scare the bad guys you also scare the good guys and a person with powers beyond those of mortal men who goes around scaring people will eventually make them hostile thats the real downside.

 

just because your character likes in a gritty bloody bullets and blood setting doesnt also mean they must be that way also.

 

The four color settings have their conventions villians dont generally kill that often in four colors it isnt a matter of whether they would in the real world or if they exsisted right here and now. its a matter that the villians have codes themselves like they dont randomly kill people they threaten yes but very little body count heros are differant however .

they rob alot of banks and jewelry stores and mints and museums and such is the life of the villian.

 

thats four color world.

 

other settings are differant and the characters in those games are differant and can be any range from violent to pacifist.

[assault]

My last words on the topic:

 

"With Great Power comes Great Responsibility" is a four colour attitude.

 

The hero that refuses to do the state's dirty work and execute a prisoner who later murders may, could, perhaps, arguably, be breaching this principle. That is, the _refusal_ to kill may be a breach of four colour ethics!

 

The problem ultimately lies in the situation where the PCs are the only possible executioners. Apparently they are more powerful than nuclear weapons! Cool! I'd play in that game!

 

Actually, there was the situation where Superman had to execute the Phantom Zone villains from a pocket universe. He did it (with Kryptonite, of course), and then had a year-long attack of angst, even exiling himself from Earth for a while. This is the four colour way.

 

Still, there are good reasons why the situation posed in this thread should not lead to the villain reoffending. There are good reasons why characters would refuse to become executioners. Not least of which, incidentally, is opposition to the very existence of the state and "legal system" that sentenced the prisoner. But holding that kind of belief system tends to put characters outside the "four colour" definition. Only "realistic" characters believe things like that.

 

The situation where reoffending occurs smells of the GM deciding his PCs are stupid, and slapping them around because of their moral beliefs. In particular, it comes very close to constituting a political rant, where the GM is justifying the existence of the death penalty in the real world. This (ranting) is unacceptable in any genre.

 

Frankly, the GM is bullying the players through their PCs. That's what the real problem is.

 

The hypothetical is interesting. That's why people responded to the thread in the first place. It would lead to some very interesting in-character debates and discussions - in short, roleplaying. Introducing this stuff is good GMing.

 

Going out and ripping up the scenery because you don't agree with their decision is not good GMing.

 

This isn't a case where the PCs make a plan like "you distract Doctor Destroyer by attacking him, while I catch up and attack him after he vapourises you". In that case, they are asking for it. In this situation, they should not be jerked around because of their choice.

 

As for realism versus four colour: a lot of so-called "realism" isn't realistic. If I had superpowers, I wouldn't be going around executing criminals. I'd be using my powers to try to help people, which might include protecting them from criminals in certain circumstances. That is, even if occasionally I did have to kill, I would be trying to live by something at least vaguely like a four colour code - in the Real World.

 

Of course, sooner or later, I would get caught up in a war, and then wartime rules would apply.

 

Alan

[J4y]

Look, if you want realism and not four-color, run your game however the hell you want. We can't tell you not to, and we can't tell you what to enjoy or not to enjoy.

 

Then stop pretending your 4C games are realistic. The "superhero kills" threads going on now, of which this thread is a mutant, are a good example of how silly this is. People claiming they're trying to be "realistic" with their 4C games and properly punishing superheros with modern day courts. It is no more realistic to have your superheros in court than having anti-matter people walking around, stop trying to pretend it is, it's schlok. It's Wile E Coyote walking off a cliff and hanging in mid-air as long as he doesn't look down. The superhero kills a demon and the GM wants them to go to jail for that, god knows why, nevermind the consequences of church groups and society, like the consequences of anti-matter in the streets. On top of that the GM is so set on punishing the superhero because thats how 4C is "supposed" to be but by using accurate modern law, but be damned the fact that modern law says he isn't guilty of anything. So he'll use accurate legal terms, run the superhero through court and like a good schlok 4C, ignore the fact that that isn't really how it works and so the anti-matter doesn't go boom, and the hole in the wall painted by the coyote works for the roadrunner.

 

4C CAN be realistic, but it means that the GM should stop doing silly things. If there are espers running around able to control people's minds and sanctioned superhero teams then guess what, courtrooms would be protected from it. Victims of criminals get a say in the court too, after a few thousand rescued people or sobbing parents of victims go through the court, do you think Spiderman is going to jail for killing Doc Oc? Or hey, if you're insisting on getting the legal system involved for "accuracy," what about the fact that most supervillians who have comitted or attempted mass murder will be wanted dead or alive to begin with, and sanctioned superheros probably have a liscence to kill?

 

On the other side of the scale, just how unrealistic, barring supreme level characters, is it to have criminals only be criminals "on panel" when a superhero is around? If everyone in jail is there for attempted crimes but none of them actually able to pull any of them off because the superhero is ALWAYS there for EVERY villian, EVERY time, well... fine if you want to play that way, but that isn't exactly how 4C worked either is it? Which is the heart of my disagreement with Agent X.

[Ghost who Walks]

This thread just keeps getting more interesting. assaults post got me thinking again, about why their was such a huge difference of opinion here.

 

Its obvious that players ang GM's are running a huge range of characters, across a wide spectrum. As I recall, Champions was originally intended as a 4-color game system. (although interestingly enough, their comic book was a bit more mature...)

 

What should players and GM's realize from this?

 

Players: Make sure you understand what kind of campaign the GM is running, and what kind of play is acceptible.. He will get rather angry with you if you whip out your (Offensive teleport, only vs. heads attack), just as the 4 color villain is making his speech explaing his evil plan.

 

The 4 color hero is also going to be dissapointed, when he gets shot by the random thug with a gun...and bleeds to death.

 

GMs: Make sure your characters know what kind of campaign you are running. Pass out reading material if necessary. The players will always get off track, and do some strange actions you didn't expect. Deal with it, and try not to allow yourself to get caught next time. There is a reason you are allowed to create as many characters as you like, with as high a "villain bonus" as necessary.

 

It is fortunate that the HERO system allows us to run from one extreme to the other. Most systems don't, which is probably why this one is still around.

[Chuckg]

Originally posted by J4y

Then stop pretending your 4C games are realistic.

[snip]

 

We never did pretend.

 

J4y -- you didn't take a polite hint. *And* you straw-manned your opposition besides. *In addition* to giving us yet another repeat of the same broken record full of insults re: "schlock" and suchlike...

 

Can you think of any reason why I *shouldn't* be telling you to put a god-damned sock in it at this point?

[cutsleeve]

well the original post of this thread is not whether someone will kill while being attacked or whether you would kill if someones life was in danger. in essence this thread is about if a super powered man who was convicted of a crime was sentanced to death and the state who sentanced him could not execute him because they lacked the ability to harm him. would you execute him. This thread didnt say that he would get out in a couple days if they held him long enough to get him tried and convicted then long enough for all those apeals and the last one went through. then that means more then likely he isnt going to get out anytime soon to reoffend. rl criminals on death row take years to actually get executed. in the end your not asking yourself am i killing someone who will go back and reoffend or am i killing someone who is killing someone or is trying to kill me. what you are asking is will i kill someone who is in prison is contained has been contained ,even though he knows that they can call in many super hero's some of whome wouldnt mind offing him, would you still kill him.

 

Of course you have been asked by the state to do it.

He was convicted of the crime he is being executed for.

And no one else can harm him only you.

 

2 out of 3 of these conditions are met by all executioners throughout all times. Even though it has we have recently come to the point where some states and people do not agree with capital punishment. the reason for that are a few little questions.

 

What if he is really innocent

What if the evidence is false.

What if there where predjudice involved in that decision.

What if im wrong.

 

what ever your decision these are questions that might cross your characters mind. in a super powered setting these questions become more complex. with Mind control, black mail, evil twins, shape shifters, and other assorted genre cliques who is to trully know. I personally wouldnt want espers in the court room reading my mind those kind of things seem totalitarian.

 

like i said this really has nothing to do with four color comics or dark gritty comics its more of a moral issue.

[cutsleeve]

your being as rude Chuckg. telling someone to shut up is rude. but also insulting them for their particular preferance in genre is also rude. in this you are both even.

 

posts are opinion especially ones based on moral quandries.

[Chuckg]

I don't recall insulting his *opinion*... just his *manners*. Which were lacking.

 

Oh, and the part where he pretended that the pro-four-color crowd had been claiming that four-color was more realistic than his preferred opinion when we never did.

[cutsleeve]

Can you think of any reason why I *shouldn't* be telling you to put a god-damned sock in it at this point?

 

Thats a slight bit rude. but thats merely my opinion it may be flawed or just stupid but oh well.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by J4y

Then stop pretending your 4C games are realistic. The "superhero kills" threads going on now, of which this thread is a mutant, are a good example of how silly this is. People claiming they're trying to be "realistic" with their 4C games and properly punishing superheros with modern day courts.

I don't think anyone here has tried to portay 4C as realistic. That would be pointless; four-color is rather unrealistic. The only thing less realistic is a flatout cartoonlike game, like if you were running a Power Puff Girls campaign.

 

What four-color games really are is highly idealistic and stylized. Superheroes, and to a certain extent villains, act within a set of commonly understood conventions. Hostages are taken, but not tortured or dismembered. People may die, but generally do so "off camera." Many villains and all heroes have Codes vs Killing or at very least reluctance to kill. Glasses, a half-mask or a wig constitute well-nigh impenetrable disguises to protect that Secret Identity.

 

None of these things are realistic; they're more like outright fantasy (I can often recognize friends by their walk from a block away; I'd have to assume that kind of thing would apply in a world with real superheroes.). That doesn't make four color campaigns more or less valid than more realistic or gritty campaigns, just different in their own way. They're the "Rated PG" of superheroic campaigns.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by J4y

Then stop pretending your 4C games are realistic. The "superhero kills" threads going on now, of which this thread is a mutant, are a good example of how silly this is. People claiming they're trying to be "realistic" with their 4C games and properly punishing superheros with modern day courts...

 

... The superhero kills a demon and the GM wants them to go to jail for that, god knows why, nevermind the consequences of church groups and society, like the consequences of anti-matter in the streets. On top of that the GM is so set on punishing the superhero because thats how 4C is "supposed" to be but by using accurate modern law, but be damned the fact that modern law says he isn't guilty of anything...

 

...like a good schlok 4C, ignore the fact that that isn't really how it works ...

 

...4C CAN be realistic, but it means that the GM should stop doing silly things. If there are espers running around able to control people's minds and sanctioned superhero teams then guess what, courtrooms would be protected from it...

 

...do you think Spiderman is going to jail for killing Doc Oc? Or hey, if you're insisting on getting the legal system involved for "accuracy," what about the fact that most supervillians who have comitted or attempted mass murder will be wanted dead or alive to begin with, and sanctioned superheros probably have a liscence to kill?

 

On the other side of the scale, just how unrealistic, barring supreme level characters, is it to have criminals only be criminals "on panel" when a superhero is around? If everyone in jail is there for attempted crimes but none of them actually able to pull any of them off because the superhero is ALWAYS there for EVERY villian, EVERY time, well... fine if you want to play that way, but that isn't exactly how 4C worked either is it? Which is the heart of my disagreement with Agent X.

No superhero genre I've ever seen is realistic.

 

There is more to 4 Color than some sort of legalistic interpretation of "do not kill." 4 Color heroes do not rip the heads off of living things, especially when they are already incapacitated. I think carrying out a legal trial will accomplish nothing though. I'd rather pretend it didn't happen if it was in my game.

 

Schlock? I think that's schlock and I'm not insulting your favored style of play. I just don't like it.

 

Your idea of realistic 4 color is superpower bloat assuming that governments have the technology to deal with superpowers?

 

Wanted dead or alive? I don't think that means open season to kill someone when they are unconscious.

 

4 Color isn't about villains never succeeding in committing crimes. You've misinterpreted this, possibly willfully. 4 Color is about the heroes being competent and being able to overcome great odds when they are challenged. The Space Tyrant can blow a planet up right before he threatens Earth to heighten suspence. However, the Space Tyrant isn't going to rape all of the heroes DNPCs and make him watch or put the hero in a hostage situation where the hero can't save the hostage. That isn't 4 Color.

[The Watcher]

Warp, the character I'm currently playing, probably would execute a supervillain who was on Death Row if no one else could. Due to his mother being killed in the Battle of Detroit he has a real hatred of murderous supervillains, and while he wouldn't try take the law into his own hands (unless they set off his 8-/11- Enraged by killing an innocent in front of him) he'd gladly help execute such a monster if asked to by the authorities.

[The Watcher]

Originally posted by J4y

Look, if you want realism and not four-color, run your game however the hell you want. We can't tell you not to, and we can't tell you what to enjoy or not to enjoy.

 

Then stop pretending your 4C games are realistic. The "superhero kills" threads going on now, of which this thread is a mutant, are a good example of how silly this is. People claiming they're trying to be "realistic" with their 4C games and properly punishing superheros with modern day courts.

I don't think anyone in this thread has said that 4C games are realistic. In fact, I think just the opposite has been asserted, that realism is a risky thing to inject into a 4C game, as shown below.

 

Originally posted by Agent X

GMs can create a lot of trouble for themselves and their players when they want their players to role-play 4 color characters but strive for "realism" (at least which contradicts 4 color conventions) with your villains and the circumstances the players face. It's unfair to the players.

 

Originally posted by J4y

It is no more realistic to have your superheros in court than having anti-matter people walking around, stop trying to pretend it is, it's schlok.

You seem to be saying here that since powers are unrealistic everything basicially has to be unrealistic, which is not necessarily the case. Just because people are walking around with abilities which should be impossible doesn't mean that its invalid to treat how people and society would react to such a world in a realistic manner. You don't have to, but it's not wrong if you do.

[J4y]

What if he is really innocent

What if the evidence is false.

What if there where predjudice involved in that decision.

What if im wrong.

 

As you say mind control and the like is always an issue, but the original post said the superheros themselves put him away so baring something like mind control the superheros in question have good reason for thinking the villian is guilty. If you play superheros in courts the team may have even spent a few days at the trial as witnesses. On top of that to get a death penalty you're probably talking about a very very bad villian who would have a reputation for crime. If your character isn't willing to do it, then is your character still willing to send criminals to stronghold at all knowing some of them get executed?

 

When I first read the thread I thought Juggernaught as an example.