Characters who Kill Redux: What would you do?

[Christougher]

In reading the other Characters who Kill thread, An entertaining thought occured. I stared this thread to not detract from the other.

 

Your PC superteam is at headqusrters when a call comes in from the Warden at Stronghold. One of the villains the PCs put away has been tried, convicted and been given the death penalty. The problem is, Stronghold doesn't have the capacity to carry out the sentence. The PCs are the only ones who've ever managed to injure him.

[assault]

Most of the characters I personally play would say no.

 

Alan

[RDU Neil]

Fascinating...

 

This is an excellent moral quandry. While it would never happen in my campaign (the government is quite capable of figuring out a way to kill just about anyone in my campaign) it would be interesting to see the character's debate this. Killing in battle is one thing. Execution is another.

 

I've only had three instances in 17 years where PCs made a conscious choice to kill in cold blood. One is a raging psycho who the player knows is headed toward his own horrible end. Another executed a known terrorist (Scorpia) after she admitted to enjoying killing (this was deep into her career before this occurred.) That PC eventually died stopping WWIII. The other was, as Storn mentioned, Dr. Destroyer. After 10 years of the campaign, in the culmination of multiple plot lines in a giant combat for the fate of the planet that took 9 hours to play out... they had the not so good Dr. at their feet. One character a psi who was able to force Destroyers super crys-tech armor to melt away... another, a TK who could use his power to simply stop the now exposed old man's heart... and the third, the team leader of the International UN Hero team UNITE that was charged with stopping Dr. D. He listened to the comments of the others, and made the authority decision. "Do it."

 

Dr. Destroyer, plague of the world for over half a century, died of natural causes.

 

The players have lived with the repercussions of that decision for over six years now.

 

Knowing my players, there would be a lot of discussion about not only executing the villain... but also about being an instrument of the state in doing so... which would have serious political and social ramifcations for my campaign.

 

Very interesting question.

[McCoy]

Any characters I play would refuse.

 

My players, on the other hand . . . .

 

Let me put it this way, one of them is a Wolverine clone.

[Chuckg]

Re: Characters who Kill Redux: What would you do?

 

Originally posted by Christougher

Your PC superteam is at headqusrters when a call comes in from the Warden at Stronghold. One of the villains the PCs put away has been tried, convicted and been given the death penalty. The problem is, Stronghold doesn't have the capacity to carry out the sentence. The PCs are the only ones who've ever managed to injure him.

 

Most characters I've played would answer "Commute his sentence to eternity in Hot Sleep if you have to, take him down to the nuclear test range at Alamagordo if you have to, build a fleeping rocket ship and send him into the fleeping sun if you have to, but there's no way I can do this."

 

Granted, I had a couple who'd say "Let me get my stuff.", and I know one guy who had a character who'd say "You mean he was still alive when I left him? Damn, I must be getting old."

[Hermit]

I don't get to play much as a PC, so it's hard to say. Out of the characters I have

1 One would do it if deputized etc and asked to by the courts. He'd be real troubled, but he'd do it.

2 Another it would depend on how 'real' you made it for him. If he knew the victims, or saw the faces of those who lost loved ones, he'd do it.

3. Most of the others would decline.

 

As for the teams I GM for. One of them could banish them to another dimension, so hey, there's a solution right there that's outside the box

[gewing]

I had one character who might do it, but there is no way HE would be the only one that could, at least at first. Later he developed a penetrating attack.

 

Another would think about it, check the records of the villain, then do it, but he was a supernormal, so there is also no reason he would be the only one who could.

 

Most of my characters were basically enhanced normals/martial artists. No funky attack powers, so they would be unlikely to be the "only solution"

 

The one with the AVLD does body attack was turned down. The weapon was a tool/anti cyborg weapon that had no effect on organic tissues, but still, I guess I can't blame the GM.

[J4y]

And after you decline, and he escapes a few months , oh wait, Stronghold, make that days later, and goes on a rampage, knocks over a few skyscrapes, kills a few thousand people, will your heros feel any remorse or is it buisness as usual?

[assault]

Originally posted by J4y

And after you decline, and he escapes a few months , oh wait, Stronghold, make that days later, and goes on a rampage, knocks over a few skyscrapes, kills a few thousand people, will your heros feel any remorse or is it buisness as usual?

 

Business as usual.

 

My characters _aren't_ cops, prison guards, soldiers or killers for hire, and they don't pretend to be.

 

They are not responsible for the actions of psychopaths, either.

 

Alan

[Ghost who Walks]

Not to get all technical and boring but this could actually happen quite a lot with killing supervillains.

 

Remmber that "No unusual pain and suffering bit?"

 

Criminal Justice has played with all sorts of ways of executing people. Lawyers usually get them labeled cruel and unusual.

 

Gas Chamber/Drugs may not work against many people with powers.

 

Electric Chair? Durak would be cooking for quite a while.

 

In order not to have the villains lawyer filing endless appeals and stays of execution, the death would have to be quick and painless.

 

But the guy who can shoot an equivalent of a bazooka out of his hand? How much damage would he do if the target was lying on a table, and a doctor was pointing out exactly where to hit?

 

So far as my players...they would jump at the oppertunity, actually.

 

If he exists in the campaign, I can easily see "Power Crusher" getting a pardon, and a new job at Stronghold...

[Chuckg]

Unlike his mutant strenth and toughness, Power Crusher's draining abilities are based on Foci. Wouldn't need to give him a job, just confiscate his gear.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by J4y

And after you decline, and he escapes a few months , oh wait, Stronghold, make that days later, and goes on a rampage, knocks over a few skyscrapes, kills a few thousand people, will your heros feel any remorse or is it buisness as usual?

That's not what supervillains do in games with 4 color heroes if the GM understands the genre. They try to knock down buildings and get stopped by the heroes.

[assault]

Originally posted by Agent X

That's not what supervillains do in games with 4 color heroes if the GM understands the genre. They try to knock down buildings and get stopped by the heroes.

 

In fact, this is the correct answer.

 

The real reason why my character would not be concerned if the situation outlined occurred would simply be that the GM was being a jerk and tearing up bits of cardboard scenario for his own amusement.

 

Alan

[Agent X]

Originally posted by assault

In fact, this is the correct answer.

 

The real reason why my character would not be concerned if the situation outlined occurred would simply be that the GM was being a jerk and tearing up bits of cardboard scenario for his own amusement.

 

Alan

My philosophy is that these hypotheticals shouldn't come up in 4 color. Heroes and Villains should conform to the conventions of 4 color in a 4 color campaign. GMs can create a lot of trouble for themselves and their players when they want their players to role-play 4 color characters but strive for "realism" (at least which contradicts 4 color conventions) with your villains and the circumstances the players face. It's unfair to the players.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Originally posted by gewing

I had one character who might do it, but there is no way HE would be the only one that could, at least at first. Later he developed a penetrating attack.

 

Another would think about it, check the records of the villain, then do it, but he was a supernormal, so there is also no reason he would be the only one who could.

 

Most of my characters were basically enhanced normals/martial artists. No funky attack powers, so they would be unlikely to be the "only solution"

 

The one with the AVLD does body attack was turned down. The weapon was a tool/anti cyborg weapon that had no effect on organic tissues, but still, I guess I can't blame the GM.

 

It might not be special powers. I can easily see a villain with a specific weakness (Susceptability: Being within 1 metre of man who he was bonded to by Zertgavon as the price for his powers... or something more creative) of some kind (Limitation: Armour doesn't work vs those who learned the Word Of Ending during The Initiation Of The Night, which, coincidently, your PC infiltrated last session...) that requires an otherwise average PC to do the deed.

 

Or maybe you're just made of Green Meteor Rocks...

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Agent X

My philosophy is that these hypotheticals shouldn't come up in 4 color. Heroes and Villains should conform to the conventions of 4 color in a 4 color campaign. GMs can create a lot of trouble for themselves and their players when they want their players to role-play 4 color characters but strive for "realism" (at least which contradicts 4 color conventions) with your villains and the circumstances the players face. It's unfair to the players.

Well said, Doug. That's my philosophy as well. The conventions of four-color for example dictate that DNPCs seldom if ever die, even though they may be repeatedly kidnapped or attacked by villains. It's an issue of trust. Once that trust is broken by either side (GM or player) it can be very hard to get it back.

[J4y]

That's not what supervillains do in games with 4 color heroes if the GM understands the genre. They try to knock down buildings and get stopped by the heroes.

 

Uh? Yeah, The Joker never got out of Arkham and killed again, Darkseid never annihilated planets after being told not to. I forgot 4 color meant the world is full of fluffy bunnies.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by J4y

Uh? Yeah, The Joker never got out of Arkham and killed again, Darkseid never annihilated planets after being told not to. I forgot 4 color meant the world is full of fluffy bunnies.

I could make a pretty good case that Batman is not a true four-color character despite his obvious Code vs Killing. He certainly didn't get a reputation which frightens hardened street thugs by hugging them. Certainly the Joker isn't a four-color villain; in fact he may be the most vicious villain in the comics. He gets around the Comics Code by being certifiably insane rather than simply evil; which is why the authorities haven't put him to death.

 

I don't believe Darkseid annihilates planets; doesn't he generally conquer and enslave them? That's classic villain stuff.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by J4y

That's not what supervillains do in games with 4 color heroes if the GM understands the genre. They try to knock down buildings and get stopped by the heroes.

 

Uh? Yeah, The Joker never got out of Arkham and killed again, Darkseid never annihilated planets after being told not to. I forgot 4 color meant the world is full of fluffy bunnies.

It's a little more complicated than that. :rolleyes:

 

Darkseid threatens to destroy lots of things, sometimes has done it before the heroes arrive, may actually do it while the heroes witness the destruction. But the writer doesn't put the heroes in a position where they have to choose between the destruction of the planet and some other value. The Joker, ever since the very non-4 color Miller Dark Knight stories, has not been portrayed in a 4 color sense. Hence, I lost interest whenever he has shown up. One of the problems with writers today is they like to jump genres in a serial book. It's one thing to have "tougher" stories in a title of Batman but it's abominable that they go 4 color, then to gore or Tarantino melodrama, then back to 4 color in the same title. The reason I dropped Savage Dragon long ago is Larsen didn't seem to know what tone he wanted to set.

 

Jay, if you don't like 4 color, that's okay. Don't pretend that the genre doesn't exist though.

 

I:rolleyes: can:rolleyes: roll:rolleyes: eyes:rolleyes: too.

[JohnOSpencer]

My current PC, Perfection, would kill him. He's still learning, the "don't kill" part of being a hero. He tries hard, buy when it comes down to it, he will kill without remorse.

Of course, my GM is not running a strictly four color campaign. We don't usaully capture villians, heck we're lucky if we win the fight. If we were playing a strictly four color campaign, I would try harder not to kill.

 

John Spencer

[gewing]

and no one gets killed when Darkseid conquers a planet...

 

I jsut fall in between. Some villains should die. One way or the other.

 

But then, I always thought darkseid was poorly written and drawn, anyway.

 

Originally posted by Trebuchet

I could make a pretty good case that Batman is not a true four-color character despite his obvious Code vs Killing. He certainly didn't get a reputation which frightens hardened street thugs by hugging them. Certainly the Joker isn't a four-color villain; in fact he may be the most vicious villain in the comics. He gets around the Comics Code by being certifiably insane rather than simply evil; which is why the authorities haven't put him to death.

 

I don't believe Darkseid annihilates planets; doesn't he generally conquer and enslave them? That's classic villain stuff.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by gewing

I jsut fall in between. Some villains should die. One way or the other.

No argument there. But in true four color comics, the villain isn't killed by the heroes but by his own hubris. Once that line is crossed, it's not really four color any more. At that point where it settles is a wide spectrum. Four color is like virginity: Once you've lost it, it's gone for good.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

No argument there. But in true four color comics, the villain isn't killed by the heroes but by his own hubris. Once that line is crossed, it's not really four color any more. At that point where it settles is a wide spectrum. Four color is like virginity: Once you've lost it, it's gone for good.

True enough. A while back, in the Legion of Super-Heroes campaign I'm running, I did the equivalent of a 12-issue maxi-series with a double-length 13th issue wrap-up that featured the return of Darkseid. I called it the "Judgment Night" cycle.

 

The climax of it I stole from the DC/Marvel crossover of years back, where Darkseid tried to breach the Wall around the Source and gain infinite power. In this case, he constructed a version of the Concetrator from an LSH story of way back (draws all the power in the universe to one spot for a brief but VERY destructive effect) and tried to use it to breach the Wall and soak up the energies of creation that would be released as a result. The Legion (including the PC) didn't manage to do enough damage to the Concentrator in time to prevent its firing; it breached the Wall, making a small crack through which that awful energy came flooding out. Darkseid got knocked out of the path by Mon-El. The PC (who was a super martial artist with a magic sword defined as an Indestructible Focus) did a Missile Deflect/Reflect ON THE ENERGY OF THE SOURCE, spearing it into Darkseid...but in the process propelling him backwards into the breach in the wall. He was fused into/over the breach, sealing it, and becoming an inanimate part of the Wall forever, a monument to...and of...himself.

 

Not only did I have to applaud the player for original thinking, but also for shear guts...she honestly expected the power of the Source to destroy her blade and probably her character in the process of being reflected. Never one to disappoint, I didn't let the bravery go without "consequences"; the PC got to add a Distinctive Feature to her sheet: Does Not Cast A Shadow. I reasoned that, having been exposed to the Light of the Source itself, no other light would ever again be able to cause a shadow to be cast by that character.

[Trebuchet]

I like that! That's classic four color stuff, right down to the character nobly attempting to stop the disaster rven though she's certain it will result in her own death. Sounds like you've got a cool campaign, and some good players.

[Hermit]

Indeed, I agree, that sounded like one heck of a game. Nicely handled by both your players and their GM there Doctor