Races of Men

[Steve]

I'm working on a world design for a fantasy campaign that borrows from the Hyborian Age more than Tolkien, and the sentient races would all be variations of mankind. As an example, Picts have always reminded me of the Hyborian Age's version of orcs. That's the sort of feel I am considering.

 

If the races are all hominoid variants of mankind that can't inter-breed, would conquests and wars be more genocidal? Or would women of the conquered race be kept as harem slaves?

 

Would it be more interesting to have inter-breeding possible?

 

If I set up each race as a package of minor characteristic and ability adjustments, what sort of abilities would be good to place different races into their homelands better?

 

Any suggestions on possible racial packages would be welcomed.

[Gent]

Re: Races of Men

 

If the races were all humans, it seems that the ability to interbreed would be more likely than between, say, elves and humans.

 

I'm not sure what you would do for racial templates/packages, though. Maybe life support or REC bought 'only to counteract the effects of high/low temperature level' for races adapted to more extreme climates. Also, characteristics in general are always good for templates/packages.

[Steve]

Re: Races of Men

 

In the rough version of the origin mythos I have, the gods each took a turn creating their own versions of men and set them in the world to populate it and see who had the best creation. The different versions roughly similar to each other, like races of mankind do in the Hyborian Age, but the basic hominoid design the gods agreed to use as a baseline have been altered. Gods allied with each other could have made their races genetically compatible, but other gods set their races of men apart from all other men. The gods went away long ago, but their creations have been competing and interacting ever since.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Races of Men

 

If your races each live in distinctive regions climate-and-terrain-wise, their Skills packages would likely reflect this: appropriate Survival Skill, Riding for horse-nomads, Climbing for hill- and mountain-peoples, and so forth. Particular cultural tendencies could also be reflected in their combat abilities: maybe some are known as great archers, while others are renowned for their swordsmanship.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Races of Men

 

Yeah, your best bet with "human racial bonuses" as far as this goes is just varying the everyman skills and maybe giving each race a +1 Skill Level with a given skill or whatever.

 

Eskimos do not have "Life Support: Safe in Intense Cold." They have skills and knowledge passed down through the generations that have enabled them to survive in their extreme environment.

 

And 'genetically' I don't think any one 'sub-species' of modern day humans have more than a +1 to any given characteristic over any other human 'sub-species.' But I am not sure how to back that up - or refute it - with any accuracy.

[Lucius]

Re: Races of Men

 

I'm working on a world design for a fantasy campaign that borrows from the Hyborian Age more than Tolkien, and the sentient races would all be variations of mankind. As an example, Picts have always reminded me of the Hyborian Age's version of orcs. That's the sort of feel I am considering.

 

If the races are all hominoid variants of mankind that can't inter-breed,

 

That makes me wonder what you mean by "variations of mankind." If they're all variations of mankind, they CAN inter-breed.

 

It also sounds contrary to the Hyborian Age type feel you say you want. Howard's tribes and nations are based on historical or quasi-historical models, who were obviously interfertile.

 

would conquests and wars be more genocidal?

 

Given how easily Humans classify other Humans as "not people" even when they CAN interbreed, I would assume that if you want to introduce genetic barriers that set one group apart as obviously ACTUALLY another species things could get even uglier.

 

Or would women of the conquered race be kept as harem slaves?

 

If ONLY the women are kept, it's still genocide. They're extinct in a generation, if you're assuming they can't interbreed.

 

If some men are kept as "stud" slaves to keep up a population of women useful for recreational (non-procreative) sex, it falls under most definitions of genocide because you are preserving their genetic heritage but destroying their cultural heritage.

 

How likely it is to happen obviously depends on things like how attractive the conquerors find the conquered, etc.

 

Would it be more interesting to have inter-breeding possible?

 

Not sure.

 

But I'll point out that there are a number of options. For example, hybrids could be "mules" who are themselves sterile or usually sterile. Mules can also be radically different from either parent. Note too that sometimes mules ARE fertile; the reason you find few second generation mules (in the original sense of the offspring of a horse and ass) is not just that most mules are sterile, but that farmers don't want to breed them because the second generation lacks the desireable traits of the first hybrid.

 

If I set up each race as a package of minor characteristic and ability adjustments, what sort of abilities would be good to place different races into their homelands better?

 

Any suggestions on possible racial packages would be welcomed.

 

First suggestion: Be sure to differentiate between inherent and cultural packages.

 

Given the origin story you posted, it's possible for different groups to be much more different than actual Human groups are.

 

Possible suggestions, without even getting too fantastic (note that many of these would be 1 pt or very low pt items.)

 

Disease Resistance. Note that Africans are more resistant to malaria (although the same gene for malaria resistance is responsible for sickle cell anemia.)(Technically, I think it's that they get malaria, but the symptons are less severe.)

 

Size differences. A Pygmy would have a higher DCV but lower BOD and STR, obviously. I understand the world's Pygmy tribes' short stature is related to earlier maturity; they simply stop growing and become reproductive adults at an earlier age.

A Watusi-like people, or outright "Ogres" (who may combine huge size and STR with a peaceful attitude and high civilization if you choose) are also good for variety.

 

Limited Expanded Breathing. People who live in the Andes or Himalayas can breath air so thin most people would need an oxygen mask, although of course even they have limits. I'm not sure if it's been determined how much of this is genetic and how much may have to do with growing up, or just spending a lot of time in thin atmosphere, but I recall reading that for some Andean Indians their lung capacity is objectively measurably greater than the average Human.

 

Limited Cold Immunity. I have read that the Aborigines of Australia have a verifiable physiological resistance to hypothermia, explaining why they can sleep naked on the cold ground.

 

Reduced END cost on Running. I am no sports fan but even I have noticed how people from East Africa dominate international marathon running.

 

Longevity. Even a single point would give one tribe something other tribes would envy. Might be an interesting thing for a package for "mules" if you decide to have them.

 

1 level of Telescopic Vision. For plains dwellers.

 

Reputations, good and bad. Not genetic obviously, but also not really cultural - if everyone assumes things about you because of how you look, it doesn't matter in a sense if you were raised in such a way that those assumptions aren't true. If they are even true in the first place. Everyone may think that the merchants of Shem can smell gold, but that doesn't mean they really can.

 

Enraged or Berserk, if an ancestral curse or genetic trait is responsible.

 

Some of these may be optional: maybe many of the Mingol tribe have sharp eyes, but some don't.

 

Some traits may also be zero point trade offs: you can make one group a little more resistant to heat and suffer a little more from cold and make it a o pt ability.

 

 

Things more likely to be cultural:

 

Environmental Movement (although that could be inborn if you wish)

 

Survival

 

Familiarity with cultural weapons or fighting styles.

 

KS: Terrain

 

Tracking

 

Riding

 

Languages (obviously)

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary Rider Package Deal

[Steve]

Re: Races of Men

 

Thank you to everyone for your comments. I hope there are more.

 

I originally got the idea from another thread posted quite a while back that discussed the various fantasy races evolving into elves, dwarves, etc from different human species. I thought about that for a while, and then I added in some notions from the multiple hominoid species of Niven's Ringworld and influenced a bit by Talislanta. Essentially, my thought experiment at campaign world building was to take Niven's concept of multiple hominoid species, mix in a little Talislanta and the sword & sorcery feel of the Hyborian Age and see what emerges.

[mhd]

Re: Races of Men

 

Whenever gods are taking turns or doing some other kinds of splitting the labor, there just has to be someone messing things up. Usually the trickster or the "evil one", but in this case I could easily imagine some compassionate goddess bestowing on all of them the ability to inter-breed. Therefore the people of mixed descent are under her patronage.

 

(Note: The "Evil One" bestowing the same gift would probably mean that the results of that aren't very nice.)

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: Races of Men

 

Okay, now I'm going to butt in. It may be news to some, but this whole "race" thing has become a might controversial out in the real world in the last few years. Making "mixed race" people inherently evil takes the ball and run it way down field towards the "totally squicky" zone. (So does the whole "sex slaves" from other races thing, for that matter.)

 

Yes, I understand that we're talking about a game setting. But people have, just occasionally, confused reality and fantasy before.

[mhd]

Re: Races of Men

 

Agree, if at all it's better left as the rather dark opinion/creation myth of some not-so-nice church, not as a cold fact of the universe. (I'm generally not very fond of "mannish races" - cf. the "High Men" of MERP/Rolemaster - either make the differences bigger - elves, dwarves, etc - or just put it in cultures.)

[Shadowsoul]

Re: Races of Men

 

Okay, now I'm going to butt in. It may be news to some, but this whole "race" thing has become a might controversial out in the real world in the last few years. Making "mixed race" people inherently evil takes the ball and run it way down field towards the "totally squicky" zone. (So does the whole "sex slaves" from other races thing, for that matter.)

 

Yes, I understand that we're talking about a game setting. But people have, just occasionally, confused reality and fantasy before.

 

It's always tricky to differentiate between fantasy races and the cultural baggage which comes with the ethnic distinctions made between different 'races' of humans in the real world.

 

Supposedly Tolkien based his Dwarves on a mixture of the Nordic faerie creatures they were named after and ideas taken from the medieval conception of Jews, (not his own ideas about Jews, I should add). The Dwarves in the Hobbit are a people in exile dreaming of their promised land, they are also believed by humans to be greedy, a trait that medieval Europeans, (and Cartman from South Park), believed Jews to possess.

 

Once you know that kind of thing it can make even an innocent Lord of the Rings themed game a bit fraught.

 

And I'd agree that when you start talking about different flavours of human you stray into even more dangerous ideological waters. Many modern arguments against racism are based on the idea that differences between groups of humans are trivial and unimportant. Statting up the differences goes against that argument somewhat.

 

If you are going to use Howard as a model then you should bear in mind his ideas. Howard wrote a lot about evolution and different races being at different places on the evolutionary ladder. Conan is closer to nature/less evolved than civilised men, which is why they can never match his beast-like strength. Whole races can share a personality type to the extent that Stygians seem to be genetically evil or at least cunning and untrustworthy.

 

Howard actually goes further. The black people in his Conan stories are all animalistic and savage, they are compared to beasts in a far less flattering way than Conan is. Conan has tanned or dark skin, but differentiates himself from the Picts, (Native Americans, I suspect), who are not black or asian, by calling himself and his Hyperborean allies 'white men'. Howard was acting out a bit of a cowboy fantasy here, I think. Conan actually refuses to abandon some pirates that he was planning to kill himself because some Picts are about to catch them and white men don't abandon each other to Picts. On the other hand he is a grudge bearing barbarian and Picts are his blood enemies.

 

So yes, racism is something to worry about and racist ideologies have affected some of the most important works of fantasy ever made.

 

On the other hand. It's a game, man. Slavery, torture, murder and prejudice occur in fictional settings. You don't have to shy away from them. By all means be aware that if you create a black skinned slave race who are genetically stupid then you are going to get some flak, and you'd deserve it.

 

But if one race enslaves another in a setting that doesn't mean that you are condoning slavery any more than playing in Middle Earth means that you are condoning pipeweed. It's how you and your players deal with the issue that matters. What better enemy to fight than an empire which is based on racial purity and the enslavement or destruction of lesser beings, ('koff' Drow 'koff')? I'd enjoy kicking the crap out of them a lot more than I would slaughtering another band of goblins.

 

(In all fairness to Robert E. Howard he did create at least one positive black character. There is a highly intelligent witch doctor in the Solomon Kane tales who seems to be some kind of guardian or champion of good magic).

[Steve]

Re: Races of Men

 

I understand that racism is a touchy subject, but my goal is to think through the foundations of a world that has multiple races all referred to as Men. Talislanta has several quite different races that are grouped together as Men, but the impression I get is that they are not able to inter-breed. Instead of Talislanta's high fantasy approach, I was looking to lower the magic level to more of a swords & sorcery feel and merge it with more of a Hyborian Age setting. For example, if the nobility of Stygia were Men with serpent genes in their mix and thus could not breed with other races of Men, how would that change things? What if Cimmerians were a different breed of Men?

[mhd]

Re: Races of Men

 

Not that the Hyborian Age (and REH) didn't have its own problem with racism…

 

Anyhoo, leaving that discussion aside, you have to be careful not to enter Star Trek territory here, too. If you've got cultures which are that much entwined with a unchangeable "race" (and a god to call their own), you'll get a bunch of pretty stagnant, fixed societies and cultures. Couple that with a Conan-esque grim mood, and it might feel a bit too oppressive and/or bland.

[Shadowsoul]

Re: Races of Men

 

I was so busy preaching my views on race and morality in fantasy settings that I forgot what I had originally been planning to post.

 

You should check out the world of Santhenar which has several different races of humans. These races come from different planets.

 

The world of The Prince of Nothing has one unusual human sub-race and has believable tensions between different ethnic groups as well.

 

Steph Swainston created a fascinating race called Rhydanne, who are descended from humans that adapted to freezing and mountainous conditions, for her Castle series of books. The Rhydanne need a high blood alcohol level to fuel their natural resistance to the cold, they are incredibly fast runners and agile climbers but have short attention spans and a worldview which seems both childlike and savage to the plainsdwellers of the world below.

 

5er Fantasy Hero has some Environmental Package Deals which might be useful as well.

[Lucius]

Re: Races of Men

 

I understand that racism is a touchy subject' date=' but my goal is to think through the foundations of a world that has multiple races all referred to as Men. Talislanta has several quite different races that are grouped together as Men, but the impression I get is that they are not able to inter-breed. Instead of Talislanta's high fantasy approach, I was looking to lower the magic level to more of a swords & sorcery feel and merge it with more of a Hyborian Age setting. For example, if the nobility of Stygia were Men with serpent genes in their mix and thus could not breed with other races of Men, how would that change things? What if Cimmerians were a different breed of Men?[/quote']

 

For one thing, you'd have a noble class in Stygia incapable of breeding with commoners.

 

Or if you want them to breed with common Stygians, and common Stygians to breed with outsiders, you raise the question of where to draw lines. If a noble and commoner breed, is the offspring automatically common? If a commoner and an outsider breed, is the offspring at all Stygian? If so, can it breed with a noble? Can an outsider who is one quarter Stygian breed with a noble?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

can a palindromedary breed with a backandforthtrian?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Races of Men

 

The Realm of Barbarica is a Hyborian inspired generic setting a few of us collaborated on a couple of years ago.

 

Barbarica

 

There are numerous sub-types of humans, descended broadly from a few historical predecessors of modern man, the Humrish, Garish, and Orcrish. In the modern era, playable human options include Barbaric, Civilized, Pygmies, Wicta, Orcs, and Gargants.

 

Humans

 

Snippet:

 

HISTORY

Long ago there were earlier predecessors of mankind, several different sub-races. Three dominant ones arose, the Humrish, Garish, and Orcrish.

 

The Orcrish were the first empire builders and oppressed and enslaved the Humrish and Garish whereever they collided. They also competed directly with the Elves and Dwarves for dominance of the the world. The Humrish and Garish were largely the same, though the Garish had larger frames than the Humrish but were less numerous; often forced together due to the shared threat of the Orcrish they also often interbred and eventually the smaller Garish population was largely absorbed into the larger Humrish population in many regions. The Humrish are effectively identical to "modern" mankind, similar to Cro-Magnon and modern humanity.

 

The Orcrish bit off more than they could chew and were dealt severe blows by the Elves and Dwarves, though the wars did cost all three peoples dearly. In the vaccuum the emerging Humrish nations of Nemed, Lemurad, and Atlad grew to power. Conceptually, these early Humrish nations were regional and basically break down along dark-skinned, vaguely asiatic, and light-skinned ethnicities respectively. All three achieved High artifice at their peaks, and they all fell around the same time for reason(s) that don't need to be specified but which are assumed to have been catastrophic. Similarly the great Elven-led nation of Sharmut and the Dwarven commonwealth suffered their own disasters. The Orcrish Empire took advantage of the collapses and sought to enslave the survivors of Nemed but the remains of the Orcrish Empire was effectively destroyed after an exceptionally brutal all-out conflict that lasted over a century and also left the remaining Nemedians ruined (see below).

 

A dark age set in, and the details of earlier times was largely lost, though some Dwarf enclaves have solid history stashed or archived somewhere.

 

In the modern era, the broken peoples of Atlad spread out and settled what is now Albizia, and the sub-tundra portion of Norizia; the Cymthon, Linnorn, and Anorn peoples are the closest modern decedents from pure Atladians though this knowledge has been lost from their lore. A surviving branch of Atladian families with strong Garish genealogy remained distinct and the Kymarians are their ultimate descendants.

 

The survivors of offshoots of Nemed remain primarily in the humans of Tropizia. However the main descendants of Nemed are the savage Wicta, who come from the remnants of the Nemedians who were persecuted by the Orcrish Empire and ultimately tore it down. They fell to barbarism and devolved into their current Neanderthalic form over the course of three thousand years; they also migrated heavily, continuously getting pushed out of desirable lands by more advanced civilizations. The pygmies of Stepizia are an offshoot from earlier less degenerate versions of the Wicta.

 

The survivors of Lemurad were the least ruined of the early empires of mankind, and survive in Silizia primarily in Khem and its tributaries, and in Orizia among the Va-ros. The Kraag are also descended from displaced Lemuradians that interbred with aboriginals.

 

The humans under elvish rule in Sharmut survive in Civizia; Calamshar and Falcoria are the primary decendents of these peoples, though they have heavily interbred with descendants of the Atladians.

 

Some peoples with a combined origin include the Tulloc nomads of Stepizia (humans of Sharmutian and Nemedian origin), and Drass (humans of Atladian and Lemuradian descent).