Denying a character his OIF

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Denying a character his OIF

 

Green Lantern Rings are probably another good example of the indestructible OIF.

 

And like Cap's shield they have well documented chinks (24 hour charge, yellow) in their capabilities.

[RexMundi]

Re: Denying a character his OIF

 

Green Lantern Rings are probably another good example of the indestructible OIF.

 

And like Cap's shield they have well documented chinks (24 hour charge, yellow) in their capabilities.

 

And both have had them taken from them. Multiple times. So if it can happen to them it can happen to a player in a game as well. I just brace for the inevitable rage squeal when it happens.

 

~Rex

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Denying a character his OIF

 

Ideally, I think, there should be the established level of trust between player and GM that the player understands that it's the GM's responsibility to invoke Disads and Limitations, and that the GM understands it's his responsibility to do so in a way that doesn't amount to a total screwjob.

 

Ideally. How often this happens is a matter for conjecture.

[RexMundi]

Re: Denying a character his OIF

 

There are ways to get an OIF Focus away from a character In Combat. Nothing new Either. Not easy, but doable.

 

~Rex

[dmjalund]

Re: Denying a character his OIF

 

I thought there were no absolutes in HERO. yet some would tell you that an Inaccessible Focus is Absolutely Inaccessible in combat.

[RexMundi]

Re: Denying a character his OIF

 

Those are the people that probably didn't bother to finish reading past the first paragraph of the limitations description. OIF is on the list of things that happens with a lot.

 

~Rex

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Denying a character his OIF

 

There are FEW absolutes in HERO. Desolidification (you desolid or you ain't), and Life Support (you have to breathe or you don't) are examples.

 

What HERO doesn't have, in terms of absolutes, are absolutely attacks and absolute defenses. You can't just have an attack that will automatically kill a person, though you can pile on enough dice to make it very likely. You can't just write down 'immune to fire' as a power, but you can pile on enough defenses only vs fire that it seems like it. But the other guys can always buy more BODY, or another few d6 of Fire attack and eventually deal you damage.

[Christopher]

Re: Denying a character his OIF

 

There are FEW absolutes in HERO. Desolidification (you desolid or you ain't)' date=' and Life Support (you have to breathe or you don't) are examples.[/quote']

And not even they are absolutes: Desolidification has at least one mayor weakpoint - the defiend SFX. Plus Mental attacks, a Drain Desolid, Attacks build with the right +1/2 adder and you need to buy an Advantage for each power you want to use while desolidfied.

And LS is only a NND/Mundane Danger Defense, the same way Extra Limbs protect vs. Grabs.

 

That you can't take away a Inacessible Focus in Combat (while the enemy is kicking) is an absolute. Not because Inaccessible is that strong, but because the Limition does not allow you to take the Focus. A power without Focus can't be take away in Combat at all(exception: Transform).

The limitation of inaccesssible foci only goes so deep that it can be taken away outside of combat/when the focus user is K.O. and you have no problem droping your DCV to 0 while taking it away. The time varies on the Item and works against the user as well as in his favor (a ring is easier to "use" than a armor).

[RexMundi]

Re: Denying a character his OIF

 

He doesn't have to be KO'ed. He just has to not be resisting, or Able to resist. There are a lot of ways to make that happen in Hero, most of them pretty simple, so it's Not an Absolute. Absolute says, Never, Ever, under any Circumstance.

 

~Rex

[Christopher]

Re: Denying a character his OIF

 

He doesn't have to be KO'ed. He just has to not be resisting' date=' or [u']Able[/u] to resist. There are a lot of ways to make that happen in Hero, most of them pretty simple, so it's Not an Absolute. Absolute says, Never, Ever, under any Circumstance.

Take a power without any Limitation. How can you stop the enemy from using it?

Now take the same power as a OIF. How can you stop the enemy from using it?

Now take the same power as a OAF. How can you stop the enemy from using it?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Denying a character his OIF

 

Take a power without any Limitation. How can you stop the enemy from using it?

 

Dispel, Suppress, Drain, etc.

 

Now take the same power as a OIF. How can you stop the enemy from using it?

 

By taking it away out of combat, or attacking the character at a time when the OIF is unavailable to him. By contrast, a Reatrainable power can generally be impeded in combat, but not taken away like an OIF.

 

Now take the same power as a OAF. How can you stop the enemy from using it?

 

By the two methods which can be used for a Restrainable power and an OIF. Oh, look, an OAF is the same limitation as an OIF Restrainable power!

[RexMundi]

Re: Denying a character his OIF

 

Surprise works, various uses of Indirect, Mind Control, Mental Illusion....in order to be resisting, you need to be aware of and be able to resist what is doing the job. Combine that with everything Hugh mentioned, and an OIF is not insurmountable or absolute.

 

~Rex

[Christopher]

Re: Denying a character his OIF

 

Surprise works' date=' various uses of Indirect, Mind Control, Mental Illusion....in order to be resisting, you need to be aware of and be able to resist what is doing the job. Combine that with everything Hugh mentioned, and an OIF is not insurmountable or absolute.[/quote']

Indirect? How can indirect help you to get someone out of his power armor, it is sspecifically not able to circumvent personal defenses - wich Power Armors count as.

 

Also the above examples are not taking away. They are Stopping the effect, but leaving it reactivatabele (Dispel; and Foci are hit harder by dispells); Supressing the Effect (Drain; but returns on it's own), or generally Supress (as long as the enemy can pay Endurance). So each of them is significantly weaker than taking it via a Transform or by taking the Accesible Focus.

 

OIF + Restrainable: GM-Approval Combination. And Restraibable only means it can be grabed while in use or to prevent use. You can not steal it nearly as easy as a OAF.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Denying a character his OIF

 

Indirect? How can indirect help you to get someone out of his power armor' date=' it is sspecifically not able to circumvent personal defenses - wich Power Armors count as.[/quote']

 

Combat armour may be more difficult to sort out with indirect but Rex was talking about the ability to do things that the owner of the focus is unaware of.

 

For instance, how does a hero get out of his power armour? If it is possible to take it off him when he is unconcious then it must be possible to accomplish some of those things when he is unaware. For example, mexican stand-off. Power-Armour Guy and Indirect TK Lass sizing each other up. A small TK tendril creeps behind PAG and flicks the quick release catch of his suit. It may not remove the suit or deprive him of the defence for most attacks but it may power down some of the other things or make him delay to get it back online.

 

It does not have to be a binary - on or off and for power armour the GM can invoke the focus aspect in different ways.

 

It is much easier to see Indirect TK Lass manage to slip someone's magic ring off their finger when they are unaware...

 

All about flexibility rather than simply the words on the page.

 

 

Doc

[Christopher]

Re: Denying a character his OIF

 

For instance' date=' how does a hero get out of his power armour? If it is possible to take it off him when he is unconcious then it must be possible to accomplish some of those things when he is unaware. For example, mexican stand-off. Power-Armour Guy and Indirect TK Lass sizing each other up. A small TK tendril creeps behind PAG and flicks the quick release catch of his suit. It may not remove the suit or deprive him of the defence for most attacks but it may power down some of the other things or make him delay to get it back online.[/quote']

That is a dispel, with the SFX of using TK to hit the "Kill Switch". I think possible with a use of the Power Skill and the optional rules for it in the APG (on an chase by chase basis).

[Fireg0lem]

Re: Denying a character his OIF

 

Oh' date=' look, an OAF is the same limitation as an OIF Restrainable power![/quote']

 

That's not quite true. They are similar, but not identical.

 

An OAF can be grabbed, but the focus must specifically be targeted (at a penalty for doing so), and the attacker grabs the focus, not the character. However, they can then take the focus away and run off or throw it away or something.

An OIF Restrainable means that the attacker can grab the character (thus NOT taking a penalty on the grab roll), and if they succeed, they are grabbing the character AND stopping the power. However, they cannot then take the focus off the character and, say, teleport away, or throw it away.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Denying a character his OIF

 

Also the above examples are not taking away. They are Stopping the effect' date=' but leaving it reactivatabele (Dispel; and Foci are hit harder by dispells); Supressing the Effect (Drain; but returns on it's own), or generally Supress (as long as the enemy can pay Endurance). So each of them is significantly weaker than taking it via a Transform or by taking the Accesible Focus.[/quote']

 

The examples cause an inconvenience to the OIF owner which he would not face without the limitation. That's why OIF is a limitation. Taking it away is not the only option for ensuring the limitation is Limiting.

 

OIF + Restrainable: GM-Approval Combination. And Restraibable only means it can be grabed while in use or to prevent use. You can not steal it nearly as easy as a OAF.

 

I'm not suggesting using that combination as a substitution for OAF. I am suggesting it carries a very similar result at the exact same limitation value. As FiregOlem notes below, it's easier to take away the OAF having grabbed it, but Restrainable lacks the OCV penalty. Both are rendered inoperable by an Entangle.

 

That is a dispel' date=' with the SFX of using TK to hit the "Kill Switch". I think possible with a use of the Power Skill and the optional rules for it in the APG (on an chase by chase basis).[/quote']

 

So do I need a Dispel to use my hands to remove the character's ankle bracelet? I don't think so. And I think I can use my TK to accomplish at range anything that normal STR can accomplish in touching distance. TK is naturally Indirect. Slap on IPE, and the OP's ankle bracelet, which can be removed with a turn or so of attention out of combat should be easily removed when the character is sitting at a press conference, or at dinner, or anywhere else. 12 seconds, or even a minute, isn't a long time out of combat.

 

Ultimately, if the player wants to define the ankle bracelet as always being worn and virtually impossible to remove, he does that by not taking a Focus limitation. If you as GM are going to interpret the rules in a manner that makes it virtually impossible to inconvenience a character with an indestructible ankle bracelet OIF, then I think you are poorly interpreting those rules. That's not the game mechanic's fault - it's your failure to read the rules with an appropriate combination of common and dramatic sense.

 

That's not quite true. They are similar, but not identical.

 

An OAF can be grabbed, but the focus must specifically be targeted (at a penalty for doing so), and the attacker grabs the focus, not the character. However, they can then take the focus away and run off or throw it away or something.

An OIF Restrainable means that the attacker can grab the character (thus NOT taking a penalty on the grab roll), and if they succeed, they are grabbing the character AND stopping the power. However, they cannot then take the focus off the character and, say, teleport away, or throw it away.

 

There are differences, but they do equate quite nicely. A power that is only Restrainable can't be taken away at all, but is easier to restrain without taking it away than even an OAF (no OCV penalty).

[Manic Typist]

Re: Denying a character his OIF

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "Take Away," Christopher. The above examples are valid, unless by "Take Away" you mean "prevent the character from ever using the Power again. Ever." In which case, only a Transform could do that.

 

There are many, many ways to prevent a character from using his Powers. In the case of an OIF ring, for example, I could cut the character's hand off.

[Christopher]

Re: Denying a character his OIF

 

The examples cause an inconvenience to the OIF owner which he would not face without the limitation. That's why OIF is a limitation. Taking it away is not the only option for ensuring the limitation is Limiting.

As far as I am informed, you can Dispel, Drain and Supress any power that is not inherent. So how does having a focus makes the user more succeptible for Drain, Dispel or Supress? As far as I am informed, not at all (except the possibility of a Dispel damaging the Focus so he can't reativate the power that fight - if the GM says it would fit).

 

And so we get this clear, you want to use STR to remove it undetected? Even with IPE TK, that is clearly a use of Pickpocket and requires fine manipulation.

 

If you as GM are going to interpret the rules in a manner that makes it virtually impossible to inconvenience a character with an indestructible ankle bracelet OIF' date=' then I think you are poorly interpreting those rules. That's not the game mechanic's fault - it's your failure to read the rules with an appropriate combination of common and dramatic sense.[/quote']

First: Stop attacking me personally. It's really anoying when you try this and it is certainly not working anymore to unsettle me.

 

Second: I never said it is impossible. When you think so, you better re-read what I said instead of trusting your interpretation. Then you might find that I said: It is impossible to grab it away in a combat. You say: But a GL ring can be stolen easily. I say: Why? It's a GL ring, it can Cling to it users hand as long es he is conscioucs and it's energy is flowing right through them.

The same way I asume any magic or technoligcal inaccsessibel Focus to be protected against removal in battle. You can still damage it (unless unbreakable), but unless you K.O. the target first or hack of the respective body part I think power bought with inacessible foci are by no mean easier removed in battle than supermans heatvision.

Inaccessible only means it can be take of him outside of the battle. By denying him access to it (Iron Mans Armor) or taking it away when he is K.O. (Green Laterns ring), or asleep.

The specifics of some Foci may make them easier to steal when not in use (like Starks Briefcase Armor or most things while the user takes a shower).

 

There are many' date=' many ways to prevent a character from using his Powers. In the case of an OIF ring, for example, I could cut the character's hand off.[/quote']

Wich also works against hand-based energy blasts. So unless you forget to enforce that the origin poin of a power is fixed, IF's are still not easier taken than supermans heatvision.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Denying a character his OIF

 

That is a dispel' date=' with the SFX of using TK to hit the "Kill Switch". I think possible with a use of the Power Skill and the optional rules for it in the APG (on an chase by chase basis).[/quote']

 

I disagree with you. Given that logic, you need a dispel to do the same manually, with the SFX of flicking the switch with your finger?

 

This is a case of someone with specific knowledge using it against the character to inconvenience them, something limitations are supposed to be there for...

 

Doc

[Manic Typist]

Re: Denying a character his OIF

 

Wich also works against hand-based energy blasts. So unless you forget to enforce that the origin poin of a power is fixed' date=' IF's are still not easier taken than supermans heatvision.[/quote']

 

I never intended to prove that point (although as an aside, you are mistaken. Superman has two eyes, an OIF ring necessarily exists on only one hand. So, in Superman's case, I'd have to get two eyes instead of just one hand. Also, you've changed the nature of the argument, since cutting off the hand only removes the Power as you originally asked, not prevents the character from ever using it again like gouging out Superman's eyes would).

 

I merely provided another example which debunked your claim here:

Inaccessible only means it can be take of him outside of the battle. By denying him access to it (Iron Mans Armor) or taking it away when he is K.O. (Green Laterns ring), or asleep.

The specifics of some Foci may make them easier to steal when not in use (like Starks Briefcase Armor or most things while the user takes a shower).

 

I'm not really certain what point you are trying to make overall. You asked for examples of ways to "remove" Powers. Many of the ways you remove a Power without Limitations obviously apply to Powers with Limitations.

 

Is your point that Inaccessible Foci cannot be removed under combat conditions? This is not the case; it is, however, much more difficult and time consuming.

 

If it is another point, please clarify so that the conversation can be more fruitful.

 

Cheers.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Denying a character his OIF

 

As far as I am informed' date=' you can Dispel, Drain and Supress any power that is not inherent. So how does having a focus makes the user more succeptible for Drain, Dispel or Supress? As far as I am informed, not at all (except the possibility of a Dispel damaging the Focus so he can't reativate the power that fight - if the GM says it would fit).[/quote']

 

Where does anyone say it is? Those mechanics are the ones that deny use of a non-limited power, which was your first example IIRC.

 

And so we get this clear' date=' you want to use STR to remove it undetected? Even with IPE TK, that is clearly a use of Pickpocket and requires fine manipulation.[/quote']

 

TK IPE is imperceptible. That's what it does. Fine manipulation and pickpocket? Sure, if you would require pickpocket for IPE STR. Why did he pay for IPE if he's also required to take skills to make his use of the power imperceptible, though?

 

Second: I never said it is impossible. When you think so' date=' you better re-read what I said instead of trusting your interpretation. Then you might find that I said: It is impossible to grab it away in a combat. You say: But a GL ring can be stolen easily. I say: Why? It's a GL ring, it can Cling to it users hand as long es he is conscioucs and it's energy is flowing right through them.[/quote']

 

I said that? Where? I thought I said that, if you have a turn to a minute, out of combat, removing a focus from an owner who is not resisting is pretty easy. That's the rule for an inaccessible focus. If you can remove the focus in a manner which would not be detected by its owner, then he's not likely to resist, is he?

 

Wich also works against hand-based energy blasts. So unless you forget to enforce that the origin poin of a power is fixed' date=' IF's are still not easier taken than supermans heatvision.[/quote']

 

Grab Superman across the eyes and see how restrained his heat vision is. It can also be used from within an entangle. Restrainable powers are easier to disable.