Steffen Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 Hi! I can't find any hearing perception modifiers for listening to conversations or hearing noises behind walls. Do you use the wall's BODY, PD or ED as modifier or something else? Thanks for your help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndianaJoe3 Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 Re: Hearing through walls You can't go by the wall's defenses or BODY because, depending on genre, a very tough barrier might not stop much sound. You'll have to use common sense. A -2 penalty will muffle normal conversation, a -4 will muffle shouting, and a -6 will make walls almost soundproof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 Re: Hearing through walls Don't forget to see those modifiers with the bell curve in mind. On average any -1 means 10% less chance. (Skill/Perception Values above 13 are more of a penalty buffer than having a real effect of success chance). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manic Typist Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 Re: Hearing through walls Except that's not true at all. Now, Skill values above 17..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 Re: Hearing through walls Except that's not true at all. Now' date=' Skill values above 17.....[/quote'] 13 to 14 is only +7% 15 to 16 is +4.5% 16 to 17 is +3% None of them comparable to the +9.7 to 12.5 % each of the values between 8- (26%) and 13- (84%) gives you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 Re: Hearing through walls In any event, the modifier should be applied universally. If it's -2 for one character, it's -2 for all characters. If you increase the penalty based on one character having a higher PER roll, you're punishing him for being good at something, which means he's wasted his points. Punishing people for being good at things is not a sign of good GMing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 Re: Hearing through walls In any event' date=' the modifier should be applied universally. If it's -2 for one character, it's -2 for all characters. If you increase the penalty based on one character having a higher PER roll, you're punishing him for being good at something, which means he's wasted his points. Punishing people for being good at things is not a sign of good GMing.[/quote'] ??? Where did I said something like this? I said: Every +/-1 equates about 10% success chance. Skill levels over 13 have more effect as penalty buffer than affectign the success chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 Re: Hearing through walls "Don't forget to see those modifiers with the bell curve in mind." If it doesn't mean 'increase the penalty if PCs have high PER rolls', what does it mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
薔薇語 Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 Re: Hearing through walls "Don't forget to see those modifiers with the bell curve in mind." If it doesn't mean 'increase the penalty if PCs have high PER rolls', what does it mean? I think it expresses the fact that the first minus is a greater minus than the next one, and so on (assuming one starts at 12 and goes down). edit: Also, for any skills starting out above 12, every minus after the first one actually does more and more damage to the general success rate. So, in that since, the system is already geared against those with higher skills (lest they be above 18 to start already). I didn't view that comment in any way to suggest "adjust to character". Also of note, Complete Darkness is considered a -4 to sight. Complete sound proofing should, to me, be about the same. And some effects like "cant see" or "can't hear" though X, are best thought of as general absolutes. Meaning "if there is no light", then I don't care if you have an 18- PER roll, you can't see, etc. La Rose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 Re: Hearing through walls Does anyone know if previous editions went into this? I don't remember and don't want to dig my old books out. Might be in one of the genre books even.... A wall's body is (among other things) related to thickness, so it's a factor to take into account, but I don't know that you can apply a hard and fast rule. I'd say figure out a modifier for each type of "standard" wall (wood, brick, concrete, etc) and modify by 1 pt for every 1 pt the wall differs from standard. Use the listed modifiers as guidelines and ask yourself "what should I be able to hear through such a wall, without a Perception roll?" For example, "I'm standing in a quiet room and someone in the next room is shouting. With a normal interior wall between us, I should hear that with no need for a roll." The modifier for quiet area is +3 and for shout is +2, so the modifier for the wall can't be -5 or greater. (Note that we're talking about hearing the noise, not necessarily making out words.) If you say "I should be able to hear a shout easy even if I'm talking to someone" eliminate the quiet area modifier and you see the wall can't give more than a -1 penalty. (Personally I'd set it at -2 and say you could possibly miss a shout if you're in an animated conversation or playing music.) Or you can say "If you're inside a bank vault and yelling, even if it's quiet outside and someone's listening, there should be a chance they don't hear you." That's +2 for the shout, +3 for quiet area, and +2 if we assume someone puts their ear to the door and listens close. So your typical vault wall or door must have at least -7 to Hearing perception rolls. Remember, this is just for being able to say "I hear something." One would have to make the perception roll by progressively greater amounts to say "I think I know what they're talking about" or "I get the gist of their conversation" or "Hand me a steno pad, I can transcribe almost word for word." Or you could just play it by ear. Lucius Alexander The palindromedary thinks playing by ear is sound advice, but the case for something more systematic deserves a hearing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
薔薇語 Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 Re: Hearing through walls The palindromedary thinks playing by ear is sound advice' date=' but the case for something more systematic deserves a hearing.[/quote'] The Palindromedary cheats because it has 4 ears. ^^ La Rose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 Re: Hearing through walls The Palindromedary cheats because it has 4 ears. ^^ La Rose. And tries to claim it can therefore make four perception rolls. Lucius Alexander The indignant palindromedary heard that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
薔薇語 Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 Re: Hearing through walls And tries to claim it can therefore make four perception rolls. Lucius Alexander The indignant palindromedary heard that. Yeah, I always think its talking out its @ss when it says that... But then I remember it doesn't have one... La Rose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 Re: Hearing through walls Does anyone know if previous editions went into this? I don't remember and don't want to dig my old books out. Might be in one of the genre books even.... A wall's body is (among other things) related to thickness, so it's a factor to take into account, but I don't know that you can apply a hard and fast rule. I'd say figure out a modifier for each type of "standard" wall (wood, brick, concrete, etc) and modify by 1 pt for every 1 pt the wall differs from standard. Use the listed modifiers as guidelines and ask yourself "what should I be able to hear through such a wall, without a Perception roll?" For example, "I'm standing in a quiet room and someone in the next room is shouting. With a normal interior wall between us, I should hear that with no need for a roll." The modifier for quiet area is +3 and for shout is +2, so the modifier for the wall can't be -5 or greater. (Note that we're talking about hearing the noise, not necessarily making out words.) If you say "I should be able to hear a shout easy even if I'm talking to someone" eliminate the quiet area modifier and you see the wall can't give more than a -1 penalty. (Personally I'd set it at -2 and say you could possibly miss a shout if you're in an animated conversation or playing music.) Or you can say "If you're inside a bank vault and yelling, even if it's quiet outside and someone's listening, there should be a chance they don't hear you." That's +2 for the shout, +3 for quiet area, and +2 if we assume someone puts their ear to the door and listens close. So your typical vault wall or door must have at least -7 to Hearing perception rolls. Remember, this is just for being able to say "I hear something." One would have to make the perception roll by progressively greater amounts to say "I think I know what they're talking about" or "I get the gist of their conversation" or "Hand me a steno pad, I can transcribe almost word for word." Or you could just play it by ear. Lucius Alexander The palindromedary thinks playing by ear is sound advice, but the case for something more systematic deserves a hearing. What about Batman with a hearing aid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bodkins Odds Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 Re: Hearing through walls I don't remember him ever going deaf, but I do remember him going blind for a while and using an echo-location helmet. On topic, I am rather surprised that this isn't covered in 6e2. It seems like it should come up a lot. Virtually, Bodkins Odds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 Re: Hearing through walls Out of curiosity, does 6e still have the rule that, if the modifiers to perceiving something are a net positive, you don't have to roll? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 Re: Hearing through walls I don't remember him ever going deaf, but I do remember him going blind for a while and using an echo-location helmet. On topic, I am rather surprised that this isn't covered in 6e2. It seems like it should come up a lot. Virtually, Bodkins Odds Same movie, only he was in the vault. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escafarc Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 Re: Hearing through walls The penalty for hearing through walls should be high enough to make buying Penetrative for Hearing worth the points at least -4 I would think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 Re: Hearing through walls Out of curiosity' date=' does 6e still have the rule that, if the modifiers to perceiving something are a net positive, you don't have to roll?[/quote'] Yes, I checked that when I was composing my answer. Lucius Alexander The palindromedary wants to know the penalty for hearing it through the grapevine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 Re: Hearing through walls Out of curiosity' date=' does 6e still have the rule that, if the modifiers to perceiving something are a net positive, you don't have to roll?[/quote'] Not exactly a rule, it's only guideline. Keep in mind that you never have to make a roll when there is nothing disturbing your perception (no battle, loud machinery or other distractions). You only have to make a roll when something is hidden/overlayed so technically the thickness wouldn't even matter for a roll. I think from the RAW that you either can hear it without penetrating (and then without a roll, unless inside combat) or you can't hear it at all without any form of penetrating. Also keep in midn that there are two versions of penetrating: Then one that allows you to penetrate on a roll, and the one that always works (twice the cost). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 Re: Hearing through walls Some more thougts: On topic' date=' I am rather surprised that this isn't covered in 6e2. It seems like it should come up a lot.[/quote'] I don't think so. HERO is just to much on the cinematic heroic/superheroic side of the genres to bother about such details. I would guess for most part that they either can or can't, as the in stories realism demands. About when to roll: Just re-read the part about modifiers. When the sum of positive and negative modifiers is greater than 0, no Roll should be nessesary. If it is 0 or lower, a roll can be called for. -4 is the sight modifier for a "Dark Night", not total darkness. If it is totally dark(a dark room without doors or zone of darkness) than not even nightvision allows your your (passive) Sight to pick something up. What we have and how to counter it: I think in effect we have something very similar to the Range penalty. Like range muffles the sound, so does material. Penetrating for hearing: I don't think hearing is blocked by solid matter, the same way light is. Solid matter is actually better for sound transmission than air. It is just that the switch air/wall/air muffles the sounds/shifts them to lower frequencies, similar to how long distance interact with sound. But penetrating can stil overcome barriers, the same way a scan/x-ray vision can overcome tinted glass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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