Weaknesses in Armor Joints

[Alverant]

I'm a big fan of the armored/robot hero and one thing I have noticed in machines real and fictional is that the joints are not as protected because they have to move. This applies to the natural world too. (Watch Monster Bug Wars on Science channel. Fangs slipping in between armor plates is a pretty common tactic.)

 

My question is how to reflect this weakness in the Hero system. Normally if you buy a defensive power defined as a kind of armor then you get covered from head to toe in the same defense including areas that are traditionally weaker (elbows, back of the knees, visor, etc). Is there some way to reflect this? I'm thinking more of a house rule that applies to all such situations by default instead of applying a specific disadvantage that players or GMs might not remember or might not want to take.

 

For example I finished the first chapter of a superhero podiobook where a SWAT team was able to disable Nazi robots by shooting out their knee joints. If they didn't hit the knee, their bullets bounced off. What would be a good way to simulate this without adding a bunch of complicated powers/abilities/weaknesses to the rulebook?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Weaknesses in Armor Joints

 

It really boils down to how much realism you want the rules to enforce.

 

On the more abstract end of the spectrum you can just rule that any attack that does Body past defenses vs. an armor special effect usually targets the limb joints (GM descriptive fiat).

You could also say that successful attacks with Armor Piercing or Penetrating are doing the same.

You could also go full bore detailed with Hit Locations and sectional defenses but this can really bog down combat in the supers genre due the higher DC attacks.

[Alverant]

Re: Weaknesses in Armor Joints

 

It really boils down to how much realism you want the rules to enforce.

 

On the more abstract end of the spectrum you can just rule that any attack that does Body past defenses vs. an armor special effect usually targets the limb joints (GM descriptive fiat).

You could also say that successful attacks with Armor Piercing or Penetrating are doing the same.

You could also go full bore detailed with Hit Locations and sectional defenses but this can really bog down combat in the supers genre due the higher DC attacks.

I was thinking more along the lines of taking a -4 OCV (or more) penalty you can avoid some or all of the armor by targeting a known/suspected weak point if the character in question would know how to target specific areas. So a SWAT team or military sniper would be able to but a brick or energy project who aren't as "fussy" as where they hit just as long as they hit would not. That way you can have "the little guy" have a greater effect on combat.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Weaknesses in Armor Joints

 

I was thinking more along the lines of taking a -4 OCV (or more) penalty you can avoid some or all of the armor by targeting a known/suspected weak point if the character in question would know how to target specific areas. So a SWAT team or military sniper would be able to but a brick or energy project who aren't as "fussy" as where they hit just as long as they hit would not. That way you can have "the little guy" have a greater effect on combat.

 

Well, if you are using 5e rules this sounds like a job for Find Weakness.

 

But assuming we are talking 6e rules another alternative would be to allow the use of Ranged Martial Arts for snipers. This avoids the necessity of using the Hit Location rolls as Martial Arts bonus damage is usually defined as finesse vs. weak points instead of raw power.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Weaknesses in Armor Joints

 

I'm a big fan of the armored/robot hero and one thing I have noticed in machines real and fictional is that the joints are not as protected because they have to move. This applies to the natural world too. (Watch Monster Bug Wars on Science channel. Fangs slipping in between armor plates is a pretty common tactic.)

 

My question is how to reflect this weakness in the Hero system. Normally if you buy a defensive power defined as a kind of armor then you get covered from head to toe in the same defense including areas that are traditionally weaker (elbows, back of the knees, visor, etc). Is there some way to reflect this? I'm thinking more of a house rule that applies to all such situations by default instead of applying a specific disadvantage that players or GMs might not remember or might not want to take.

 

For example I finished the first chapter of a superhero podiobook where a SWAT team was able to disable Nazi robots by shooting out their knee joints. If they didn't hit the knee, their bullets bounced off. What would be a good way to simulate this without adding a bunch of complicated powers/abilities/weaknesses to the rulebook?

 

A few options ...

Activation roll (if the armor doesn't activate, you hit the knee).

Hit Location rules used. (optional: with a Vulnerability to attacks to the joints)

[Christopher]

Re: Weaknesses in Armor Joints

 

Well, if you are using 5e rules this sounds like a job for Find Weakness.

 

But assuming we are talking 6e rules another alternative would be to allow the use of Ranged Martial Arts for snipers. This avoids the necessity of using the Hit Location rolls as Martial Arts bonus damage is usually defined as finesse vs. weak points instead of raw power.

 

A few options ...

Activation roll (if the armor doesn't activate, you hit the knee).

Hit Location rules used. (optional: with a Vulnerability to attacks to the joints)

HSMA 6E has the "Disable" Maneuver. Officially not for Ranged Martial Arts, but that is actually a good argument for this.

 

Weapon Master/Deadly Blow can be used to simulate (the later is used to mimik D&D Sneak Attack). Actually "putting you CSL to DCV", Haymaker or any other source of extra DC (Range Martial Arts) IS aiming for weak points!

 

Other ideas:

+X DC 0 END, requires Knowledge of Anatomy, extra time (to aim) or similar things

Naked Armor Piercing Advantage (for all Firearms up to X AP), with the same Limitations

Naked Penetrating, with the same Limitation

[Clonus]

Re: Weaknesses in Armor Joints

 

I'm a big fan of the armored/robot hero and one thing I have noticed in machines real and fictional is that the joints are not as protected because they have to move. This applies to the natural world too. (Watch Monster Bug Wars on Science channel. Fangs slipping in between armor plates is a pretty common tactic.)

 

My question is how to reflect this weakness in the Hero system.

 

When you are using offensive skill levels for increased damage, that's what you are doing.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Weaknesses in Armor Joints

 

Christopher beat me to the to the punch with the naked Armor Piercing advantange with a required skill roll. Excellent idea.

 

I'm not sure if this would be strictly legal for Piercing Points; by the RAW they're supposed to be bought for a specific attack, and they're not necessary purchasable as a naked advantage -- they're actually a power. (Don't have my APG handy, but I'll provide a page # for this if needed.) However, the "strictly legal" work-around I've used for this is the "Piercing Points only" VPP. It can be further limited to "only for firearms" to lower the cost a bit more. It's a great idea, whichever way you do it -- there's just a question of how flexible your campaign is on the rules. Some folks just ignore the "one attack only" restriction on Piercing Points and go with "naked" Piercing Points as a house rule. As long as it doesn't turn into a game-breaker, no problem. (OTOH, I've seen some players who would break a game if you let them do this, so....)

[Christopher]

Re: Weaknesses in Armor Joints

 

"Piercing" is a Power from APG I, 133 (that I never noticed being there before...). It's basically an Adder that directly negates Defenses, similar to reduced negation adder. The only reason I see why it is written as a Power, is that it's marked as "Special Power" and thus not eligible for a Framework.

[concord]

Re: Weaknesses in Armor Joints

 

Weaknesses in Armor Joints - sounds more like a weakness in the target versus something the attacker is doing...

 

As such I would propose something like the following... inspired by CrosshairCollie's suggestion...

 

Resistant Defense, 6 PD and 6 ED (The base armor including the joints)

Resistant Defense, 4 PD and 4 ED, Requires A Roll: 14- (All areas but the joints)

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Weaknesses in Armor Joints

 

"Piercing" is a Power from APG I' date=' 133 (that I never noticed being there before...). It's basically an Adder that directly negates Defenses, similar to reduced negation adder. The only reason I see why it is written as a Power, is that it's marked as "Special Power" and thus not eligible for a Framework.[/quote']

 

Might not be entirely legal for a VPP either, then. [/grumble]

[Christopher]

Re: Weaknesses in Armor Joints

 

Weaknesses in Armor Joints - sounds more like a weakness in the target versus something the attacker is doing...

Not more than you head being weaker to damage than your arms. Hitting that point can be luck (high roll or right Roll or good one on the hit table) or carefull targetting (wich could also mean Haymaker + CSL to DC).

 

From haymaker:

Firearms:

A character can Haymaker a gunshot, unless the GM forbids him to. This could represent carefully aiming to hit the most vulnerable part of a target.

The inevitable weakpoints in the armor are just that: vulnerable points. CSL and Martial Manevuers both add DC, but cost 0 Endurance to use by default. So they are not extra force (what STR is) but hitting the right place or doing the right attack movement to apply maximum force to the right place.