How do you have a life force outside of the body?

[zornwil]

Originally posted by altamaros

i don't really think this kind of characters ("unkillable people") is abusive.

why ?

 

because there's nothing in this character that could not be solved with few tens of pounds of cement, a boat and a little trip on the sea ... (mafia style)

(alternatively, you could also use a building under construction and the PC will have to start a empathy with the plumbery)

 

That's fair.

[eepjr24]

IPE

 

Invisible body could not be seen, but it could still be lost. If I have 6d6 of Ego Attack, IPE and someone has an AE 12d6 Supress Ego Attacks (standard effect) that covers my area, I still lose the Ego attack. Just because something is invisible does not make it intangible.

 

Personally, for this effect I would go with the resurrection from death in a focus. Duplicates can get complex, and summon exact copies can get pretty abusive.

 

- E

[austenandrews]

BODY with a Focus doesn't make you unkillable, either. It just means there's one more way for enemies to take your BODY besides hacking it from you piece by piece.

 

The only way extra BODY can simulate this effect is to keep you from dying. It can still be taken away like normal, but the enemy will have to take away a lot more of it. So you might buy something like "+30 BODY, Only if external 'soul jar' is intact (-1/4)" but someone could still come along, knock you down to -41 BODY and you'd be dead. At some high point cost you could conceivably invoke FH's optional rule about absolutes, but that's a big-time "GM permission" effect. (At that point it's probably more cost effective just to buy Regeneration/Resurrection with the above "soul jar" Limitation.)

 

As an aside, across the spectrum of gaming I agree it's a rare construct, but in certain folklore the concept of an "external soul" is fairly common.

 

-AA

 

P.S. Now you've got me thinking what effect IPE on BODY would have. I suppose it might hide the fact that you're wounded.

[dugfromthearth]

"AND I would NOT allow the concept the way it's been stated in this thread, but that's just me/my game."

 

It is not an uncommon plot device in books.

 

Not for the heroes of course. It is great for a master villain that keeps coming back.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by dugfromthearth

"AND I would NOT allow the concept the way it's been stated in this thread, but that's just me/my game."

 

It is not an uncommon plot device in books.

 

Not for the heroes of course. It is great for a master villain that keeps coming back.

 

Ever read any of the old villian pulps from the 30's?

 

Some of those villians had the hardest time getting rid of those interloping heroes!

 

"Hey! I thought I killed you last time meddling do-gooder."

 

Its a very pulp thing to come back from the dead (after some bizarre retcon explanation). Sherlock Holmes was only the first....

 

I would be very careful about it and make sure it was genre apropriate first (however).

[zornwil]

Originally posted by dugfromthearth

"AND I would NOT allow the concept the way it's been stated in this thread, but that's just me/my game."

 

It is not an uncommon plot device in books.

 

Not for the heroes of course. It is great for a master villain that keeps coming back.

 

"Not for the heroes of course." - EXACTLY.

 

I thought we were talking about a hero. If it's a villain I wouldn't sweat how it's done as it is a plot device.

[zornwil]

Re: IPE

 

Originally posted by eepjr24

Invisible body could not be seen, but it could still be lost. If I have 6d6 of Ego Attack, IPE and someone has an AE 12d6 Supress Ego Attacks (standard effect) that covers my area, I still lose the Ego attack. Just because something is invisible does not make it intangible.

 

Personally, for this effect I would go with the resurrection from death in a focus. Duplicates can get complex, and summon exact copies can get pretty abusive.

 

- E

 

I understand, but the special effect of the invisibility is that it is not where it appears to be. In fact it's nowhere in the region.

 

The problem with resurrection which keeps getting ignored is you have to die first. As I understand it, that should not happen, nor should this character take any BOD but still be able to have everything work against the regular world as normal. The character's physical body when sent into battle, until I'm told otherwise, has NO BOD and can fight on and on and on so long as it is not stunned. It's not like a zombie - cutting off the head has no effect. You can stamp it into pieces and it just keeps living.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by austenandrews

BODY with a Focus doesn't make you unkillable, either. It just means there's one more way for enemies to take your BODY besides hacking it from you piece by piece.

 

The only way extra BODY can simulate this effect is to keep you from dying. It can still be taken away like normal, but the enemy will have to take away a lot more of it. So you might buy something like "+30 BODY, Only if external 'soul jar' is intact (-1/4)" but someone could still come along, knock you down to -41 BODY and you'd be dead. At some high point cost you could conceivably invoke FH's optional rule about absolutes, but that's a big-time "GM permission" effect. (At that point it's probably more cost effective just to buy Regeneration/Resurrection with the above "soul jar" Limitation.)

 

As an aside, across the spectrum of gaming I agree it's a rare construct, but in certain folklore the concept of an "external soul" is fairly common.

 

-AA

 

P.S. Now you've got me thinking what effect IPE on BODY would have. I suppose it might hide the fact that you're wounded.

 

Usually though with an external soul the body can still take damage. This character construct explicitly doesn't want that to happen.

 

I would not apply IPE on BODY other than to hide the effects of damage or to make BODY specifically non-targettable even while seeing the person's physical body. However, that would still allow for anything that affected the entire mass to affect the person.

 

I only am applying it in this example as an exception; to my knowledge no game mechanic allows you to not take any physical damage other than STUN while simultaneously affecting the physical world freely. Given this character's SFX are that his physical body is removed, I went with IPE; I considered going Indirect and wonder if I shouldn't have stayed with that. Either way, it's merely an attempt to simulate "my body isn't here but the rest of me is". It is not to make the character unkillable except in that location.

 

It is important to note that the problem with regen and resurrection is unless you have regen turned on to happen instantaneously and fully, with resurrection doing the same for any odd case where regen doesn't work properly, there's no way for a character to not take some BOD, which is what is desired to be avoided. And any game mechanic that makes for instantaneous resurrection and regen is just as abusive as Indirect or Focus BOD.

[austenandrews]

Re: Re: IPE

 

Originally posted by zornwil

The problem with resurrection which keeps getting ignored is you have to die first. As I understand it, that should not happen, nor should this character take any BOD but still be able to have everything work against the regular world as normal. The character's physical body when sent into battle, until I'm told otherwise, has NO BOD and can fight on and on and on so long as it is not stunned. It's not like a zombie - cutting off the head has no effect. You can stamp it into pieces and it just keeps living.

 

Yeah, that's the trouble with simulating an absolute effect like this by using a non-absolute system like HERO. But you've gotta pick something, right?

 

You could also buy a flavor of Desolid, "Only to eliminate BODY damage," with wring through all the issues that entails. If the GM allowed it, that might be the most elegant solution.

 

-AA

[austenandrews]

Originally posted by zornwil

It is important to note that the problem with regen and resurrection is unless you have regen turned on to happen instantaneously and fully, with resurrection doing the same for any odd case where regen doesn't work properly, there's no way for a character to not take some BOD, which is what is desired to be avoided.

 

Of course, that's just a Special Effect issue. "Losing BODY" is just something that happens on the way to being killed. Assuming the GM doesn't have other effects for losing BODY besides just being closer to death, there's nothing to say the extra BODY isn't just a game mechanic to simulate unkillability. It's the same kind of thinking that created Combat Luck and similar constructs.

 

Granted with Regen/Resurrection, you'd have to build it in such a way as to avoid death in 99% of the cases. You'll never get every case, of course, but there's not much you can do about that.

 

And any game mechanic that makes for instantaneous resurrection and regen is just as abusive as Indirect or Focus BOD.

 

Well, except that modified BODY doesn't logically have the effect that you're describing.

 

-AA

[zornwil]

Re: Re: Re: IPE

 

Originally posted by austenandrews

Yeah, that's the trouble with simulating an absolute effect like this by using a non-absolute system like HERO. But you've gotta pick something, right?

 

You could also buy a flavor of Desolid, "Only to eliminate BODY damage," with wring through all the issues that entails. If the GM allowed it, that might be the most elegant solution.

 

-AA

 

Yeah, I suppose, I always dislike that though as (oddly) Desol being one of the only absolute powers in HERO you have those issues you mention.

 

This could be a case where it's also best to just apply 100% Damage Reduction (whichever way you want to get there) with the limitation of "not if near real BOD".

 

I have some custom Invulnerability rules but that's even further into house rules and besides they don't work as they are SFX-based in a "vertical" way (i.e., against a set of circumstances) and not absolute in the way this construct would be.

 

Actually it might be best to just house rule this construction, making it a power and assigning a cost, anyway and be done with it. It's one of those things that otherwise will be too cheap by the book in any scenario - even Desol only to eliminate BOD damage is conservatively -1 so that's 20 points for a significant power. Still a good bit better than applying an advantage to BOD except maybe stacking the bunches of IPEs but that has its own issues as noted.

 

I meant to look at the astral plane travel stuff last night just to get some ideas, IIRC that uses a form of duplication I think (though I know the astral part is desol) and the body that isn't traveling is completely vulnerable. The power isn't correct for this construct in that the traveling body is still susceptible within the astral plane, but I figured there are some ideas that could be culled out. But I didn't do it, won't have a chance the next few nights, so someone else may want to think about that one.

[AnotherSkip]

Ehhh just buy two forms of Regen, (mebbe in a power framework) possibly with a trigger on it and invoke the reoversover time. The regen (possibly with IPE) would keep the fighting person up for a while but he _would take stun_ which is realisitic for the story mechanics from such books as Taran Wanderer

[zornwil]

Originally posted by AnotherSkip

Ehhh just buy two forms of Regen, (mebbe in a power framework) possibly with a trigger on it and invoke the reoversover time. The regen (possibly with IPE) would keep the fighting person up for a while but he _would take stun_ which is realisitic for the story mechanics from such books as Taran Wanderer

 

The problem would still come in with any large attack that takes the BOD in a phase or two.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by austenandrews

Of course, that's just a Special Effect issue. "Losing BODY" is just something that happens on the way to being killed. Assuming the GM doesn't have other effects for losing BODY besides just being closer to death, there's nothing to say the extra BODY isn't just a game mechanic to simulate unkillability. It's the same kind of thinking that created Combat Luck and similar constructs.

 

Granted with Regen/Resurrection, you'd have to build it in such a way as to avoid death in 99% of the cases. You'll never get every case, of course, but there's not much you can do about that.

 

Yeah, but I think it's troubling when you have a construct that handles just 99% and you either have hand-wave the 1% or invent some sort of different SFX to explain away the times it doesn't work. I'd definitely go with Desol "BOD only" before going with regen/resurrection.

 

That or I suppose you could excuse this particular construct as being "Aid to BOD, continuing, 0 END" with some high number constantly adding back into the BOD of the moving body. Then you could make the source be the "how to shut this off" part, with the moving body having its base BOD as 0.

 

Well, except that modified BODY doesn't logically have the effect that you're describing.

 

-AA

 

Well, BOD itself doesn't logically have anything that would lend itself to this construct, as BOD is presumed to be with/near/around the character. If we can't do Duplication (because one of the Duplicates "can't be killed"), then our options are all pretty limited to simulate the SFX.

 

I think focus is a reasonable response but it's granting a limitation for something that is an advantage.

 

The advantages available don't fit and require stretching, whether IPE or Indirect, there's a whole "definition behind it" that has to be spelt out. I like IPE solely because it allows you to use a Detect to figure out where the BOD is (or at least that it's remote) and it accounts for the ability to target the attack specifically - once you can see the BOD, you can target it, until then you're targetting "nothing". So it requires a little less writing up than Indirect.

[zornwil]

Meant to write also that if there were a "Desolid" advantage applicable to powers/characteristics this could be resolved easily. I've been surprised there isn't such an advantage in HERO - and maybe there is and I'm forgetting it.

[dugfromthearth]

"It can be impaired or crippled through damage, can feel pain and be stunned. But it cannot be killed."

 

That is from my original post.

 

It can take damage. It can be hacked limb from limb. It can be knocked down, crushed into pulp, etc.

 

it just cannot be killed.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by dugfromthearth

"It can be impaired or crippled through damage, can feel pain and be stunned. But it cannot be killed."

 

That is from my original post.

 

It can take damage. It can be hacked limb from limb. It can be knocked down, crushed into pulp, etc.

 

it just cannot be killed.

 

Except for when the life force is killed, correct?

 

Everything inbetween is the artifact of the SFX of the blows or Transforms (I list that because the "official" way to permanently blind or hack off an arm as a regular effect is often done via a Transform), not related to specific BOD lost.

 

The character walking about suffers no BOD damage - correct?

[Zed-F]

I disagree. According to the description, it very much suffers BOD damage. Lots of it. If it can be crushed, hacked apart, or incinerated, the character can be deprived of his body for a considerable amount of time, until either (a) it repairs itself, or ( a new body mystically appears. Either way, it sounds a lot more like regeneration+resurrection than some bizarre "invisible BOD" construct to me.

[AnotherSkip]

Well depending upon the writeup you could use an IPE Triggered body healing. with no reset need (definately Gm's la la land)

 

however the two cases I can think of is Taran Wanderer and D&D(some varation of) .

 

In taran wanderer it was definately something akin to above +Regen +Combat luck. but instant death when the item was broken.

 

It hurt but was not lethal.

 

part of the problem is that the players must be given enough evidence and make the right assumption in order to sucessfully vanquish the villian but not given it on a silver platter.

 

 

In D&D it was essentially mind control used as a posession, dispelled when the critter died. then posess new "wandering monster"

 

 

And the simple solution to "a big enough attack will kill it" is make the frigging thing bigger than the campaign limits. erm duh.

[dugfromthearth]

the actual case I am thinking of is in fact Taran Wanderer, my favorite book.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Zed-F

I disagree. According to the description, it very much suffers BOD damage. Lots of it. If it can be crushed, hacked apart, or incinerated, the character can be deprived of his body for a considerable amount of time, until either (a) it repairs itself, or ( a new body mystically appears. Either way, it sounds a lot more like regeneration+resurrection than some bizarre "invisible BOD" construct to me.

 

You raise a good point that should be answered - how does the moving body heal? That would be good to know.

 

As stated by a prior poster, losing BOD is only important in terms of dying, unless you've got BOD hooked up to the effects you named above. It's not clear - short of knowing healing - how this moving body remains moving.

[JmOz]

Okay, how I would (and have) built this in the past

 

1d6 Regen, Limbs (F/X, limbs crawl back and reattach), resurection (F/X he never dies), Resurection stoped by item being destroyed

 

for the instant death, well I hate instant anything...I perfer the villain to be able to scream in pain as the nether pits bring fire to consume him so:

 

Susceptibility every phase, 3d6 , uncommon, Body & Stun: Should be about 50 points