Attack vs. Limited Defense in 6E: how to build?

[Zeropoint]

So, I was looking through 6E's "Attack Versus Alternate Defense" rules, and I couldn't find the ability I was looking for. I was thinking of a sword blade made of magical energy that would bypass non-magical physical armor, but still be affected normally by force fields or magical protection of any kind. Under 5E, AVLD would allow this, but the 6E AVAD doesn't seem to have that option.

 

Am I missing something in AVAD? If not, how would I build this under 6E?

[Folded]

Re: Attack vs. Limited Defense in 6E: how to build?

 

It just depends on how common it is to find people without the special defenses. If magical armor, force fields or magical protection are Very Common, the Advantage counts as +1/2. If they are Common, +1. Uncommon is +1 1/2, and Rare is +2. In most fantasy campaigns I have played in, magical protection of any kind was at least Uncommon (considered over the entire population, not just adventurers and monsters), meaning that this attack would render most people defenseless. If you want the NND effect, add an All or Nothing Limitation (-1/2), as well.

[Lucius]

Re: Attack vs. Limited Defense in 6E: how to build?

 

Am I missing something in AVAD?

 

Yes.

 

Calculate the Advantage by comparing the standard defense for that attack Power, to the one you want. For example, if you're using a Killing Attack, that goes against Resistant Defense,which is "common." If magical defense is also common, it's a +0 Advantage, but that's not likely. More likely it's uncommon, for a +1/2 Advantage, or rare, for +1 Advantage.

 

Note that it will also be STUN only, unless you take another +1 Advantage for Does BODy.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Tagline vs Alternate Palindromedary

[Lucius]

Re: Attack vs. Limited Defense in 6E: how to build?

 

If magical armor' date=' force fields or magical protection are Very Common, the Advantage counts as +1/2. [/quote']

 

This would be the case if, and only if, the base Power being used normally goes against a defense that is somehow more common than Very Common. I don't see how that's possible.

 

More likely, it would be a +0 Advantage. Or if the attack type normally goes against a defense that is less common than Very Common (For example: A Drain that goes against PD) then it is actually a Limitation.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary vs Alternate Tagline

[Christopher]

Re: Attack vs. Limited Defense in 6E: how to build?

 

This would be the case if' date=' and only if, the base Power being used normally goes against a defense that is somehow more common than Very Common. I don't see how that's possible.[/quote']

Magical Armor is Less Common than normal Armor. By definition.

 

Edit: In msot of the Official Writeups of "external" Armor and Forcefields are built as "Resistant Protection" 6E1 275 (not to be mistaken by PD/ED, Resistant +1/2)

So it will likely be at least a step down from "Common", where any Resistant PD/ED (Resistant Protection and PD/ED, Resistant +1/2)

[Folded]

Re: Attack vs. Limited Defense in 6E: how to build?

 

This would be the case if, and only if, the base Power being used normally goes against a defense that is somehow more common than Very Common. I don't see how that's possible.

 

More likely, it would be a +0 Advantage. Or if the attack type normally goes against a defense that is less common than Very Common (For example: A Drain that goes against PD) then it is actually a Limitation.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary vs Alternate Tagline

 

Ah, misread things on my part. Sorry about that, Zeropoint.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Attack vs. Limited Defense in 6E: how to build?

 

Magical Armor is Less Common than normal Armor. By definition.

 

There is nothing inherent to either Special Effect that makes one more of less common than another - that will be wholly campaign dependent. By Definition.

[Christopher]

Re: Attack vs. Limited Defense in 6E: how to build?

 

There is nothing inherent to either Special Effect that makes one more of less common than another - that will be wholly campaign dependent. By Definition.

When Magic Armor is the norm, magic armor will be the "normal" Armor and non-magical armor is sub-par armor. So I find a campaign where magic armor is more common highly unlikely.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Attack vs. Limited Defense in 6E: how to build?

 

When Magic Armor is the norm' date=' magic armor will be the "normal" Armor and non-magical armor is sub-par armor. So I find a campaign where magic armor is more common highly unlikely.[/quote']

 

I can't disagree with you enough. There is absolutely nothing about any given Special Effect that makes one more of less common than another other than Campaign Parameters. If I say Magic Armor and Non-Magical Armor are equally common in my campaign - they are. The rules have no sway in this.

[Christopher]

Re: Attack vs. Limited Defense in 6E: how to build?

 

I can't disagree with you enough. There is absolutely nothing about any given Special Effect that makes one more of less common than another other than Campaign Parameters.

Not more common than one SFX. More common than/equally common as ALL other SFX together.

 

But when you want to proof your point, name me one setting where "Magical Armor/Magic Spell fo Protection" is on equal footing with all of the following togehter: "mundane Armor", "Dodge based Armor" (Combat Luck), "Natural Armor" (thick hides).

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Attack vs. Limited Defense in 6E: how to build?

 

I'm not following this argument very well and so not sure who's side I am entering here but if you want a setting where Magical Armour/Magic spell of protection is equally as common as mundane armour, dodge based armour and natural armour then I give you....Glorantha.

 

Everyone has magic and everyone who fights even a little bit will have magical protection against damage.

 

 

Doc

[Christopher]

Re: Attack vs. Limited Defense in 6E: how to build?

 

I'm not following this argument very well and so not sure who's side I am entering here but if you want a setting where Magical Armour/Magic spell of protection is equally as common as mundane armour, dodge based armour and natural armour then I give you....Glorantha.

 

Everyone has magic and everyone who fights even a little bit will have magical protection against damage.

But how much of his defense is magical and how much is not?

 

Very Common is like PD/ED. It's a characteristic. No skill to craete it required, no Limitations (Focus, COncentration) on it required.

Common is Like Resistant ED/PD. It means you can just buy it or craft it with Skill. Everybody considering to fight will have a relevant amount (50%) of his overall PD/ED from this area.

 

Even if Magic would be common, that is still a Step up from the "Very Common" Killing Attacks start at (as explicitly noted in the AVAD rules).

[torchwolf]

Re: Attack vs. Limited Defense in 6E: how to build?

 

As for the commonality of "ordinary" vs "magical" armor, it's not what's in the setting as a whole that's most important, it's what the PCs would most likely come up against (regardless of how it's built mechanically).

 

There are many high-powered fantasy campaigns where magical and/or magically enhanced armor (same sfx in any case) could be the default for most opponents, probably including simulations of high-level D&D games.

 

In "realistic" or low-powered fantasy, I'm wagering magical armor would be less common than ordinary armor.

 

But, as ghost-angel and Doc Democracy points out, it's setting-specific and the question cannot have an absolute answer, or be answered in a vacuum (without campaign information).

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Attack vs. Limited Defense in 6E: how to build?

 

Magical Armor is Less Common than normal Armor. By definition.

By who's difinition?

 

It should be noted the OP said:

I was thinking of a sword blade made of magical energy that would bypass non-magical physical armor' date=' but still be affected normally by force fields or [b']magical protection of any kind[/b]. Under 5E, AVLD would allow this, but the 6E AVAD doesn't seem to have that option.

Magical protection of any kind. So we're not just looking at magic armor versus mundane armor (as you yourself pointed out I believe). We're looking at every type of magic defense versus every type of mundane defense. This could vary wildly from setting to setting. Some races might have innate magical abilities including defenses. Maybe small magic charms that would provide no defense against mundane attacks would still stop this attack dead simply because they negate magic. Maybe it is a setting focused on mages/wizards/magic warriors and all of the common defenses are magical...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Attack vs. Limited Defense in 6E: how to build?

 

Magical protection of any kind. So we're not just looking at magic armor versus mundane armor (as you yourself pointed out I believe). We're looking at every type of magic defense versus every type of mundane defense. This could vary wildly from setting to setting. Some races might have innate magical abilities including defenses. Maybe small magic charms that would provide no defense against mundane attacks would still stop this attack dead simply because they negate magic. Maybe it is a setting focused on mages/wizards/magic warriors and all of the common defenses are magical...

 

It may well be very common. It is not as common as "all forms of defenses", which would normally defend against the damage done. If I wear magical armor, carry a mystic charm and cast a mystic warding spell, I still don't get to add my base PD to defend myself against this magical blade. The frequency, in my view, would properly be set based on how much of the typical foe's defenses will come from magical defenses. If 75%+ of defenses come from magical sources, then I'd set that AVLD at a relatively low cost compared to a game where half of opponents have no magical defenses at all and the rest average half their defenses from magic and half from mundane sources.

 

However, assuming that mundane defenses (even as basic as that 2 PD/2ED starting characters have) are even remotely frequent, "only stopped by magic defenses" is blocked by less defenses than an attack which uses normal defenses.

 

Note that the OP is asking about AVAD - the attack subtracts only magical defenses. It is not an NND, which has no effect at all on anyone with even the slightest of magical defenses.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Attack vs. Limited Defense in 6E: how to build?

 

Note that the OP is asking about AVAD - the attack subtracts only magical defenses. It is not an NND, which has no effect at all on anyone with even the slightest of magical defenses.

 

Correct. I may not have phrased it clearly, but the concept was an attack that would bypass physical non-magical armor--anything that's just a sheet of tough material--but interact normally with force fields of any description, and also with magical armor.

 

As for the commonality of defenses, the issue is then "all resistant ED" vs "resistant ED excluding non-magical physical armor" . . . it's obvious that the set of rED which would stop this attack is a subset of all rED, and is therefore less common. I apologize if that wasn't clear.

 

Finally, after re-reading the AVAD description, I can see that I was interpreting it too narrowly . . . it seems that a subset of a defense would count as a less common defense for a step down the chart, which answers my initial question.