DEX for vehicles and HERO System Vehicle Sourcebook

[azato]

While I understand that the DEX for a vehicle is the maximum DEX its operator can react.....WHY ARE SOME SO HIGH...? A jet at a 23. That is well beyond the pale for mere mortals (non-supers). Many are so high it is pointless in heroic and normal campaigns. Am I missing something?

 

How useful would a HERO System Vehicle Sourcebook be for a Traveller chamaign?

[ghost-angel]

Re: DEX for vehicles and HERO System Vehicle Sourcebook

 

Lightning Reflexes can bring a Normal up to the DEX initiative of a high-DEX Vehicle if the campaign allows for it.

[Escafarc]

Re: DEX for vehicles and HERO System Vehicle Sourcebook

 

I've played lots of characters in "heroic" games with DEX higher than 20 even in the days when you had to pay double. As for Traveller as with any genre all you really need are the 2 core books. Everything else is just a extra hand in building your campaign. And we can all use that at times.

[azato]

Re: DEX for vehicles and HERO System Vehicle Sourcebook

 

Thanks guys...

[Vondy]

Re: DEX for vehicles and HERO System Vehicle Sourcebook

 

While I understand that the DEX for a vehicle is the maximum DEX its operator can react.....WHY ARE SOME SO HIGH...? A jet at a 23. That is well beyond the pale for mere mortals...

 

Actually, the pale for "mere mortals" is 30 for many stats, including dex.

 

Its legendary, but possible.

[azato]

Re: DEX for vehicles and HERO System Vehicle Sourcebook

 

The problem is I use that term on occasion this way and doesn't convey via email and I should have used quotes. Normally it goes like this, "For an extra $1000 you can lighten the bicycle by 6 ounces, but that is nothing that "mere mortals" will notice." There are elites athlete wherein mere ounces can make the difference of a win taking place over thousands of miles but they are on the far right of the distribution curve...far...far...far to the right. There is a sense when we hit a level of granularity that is imperceptible to most people or unreachable.

[Arc Esu]

Re: DEX for vehicles and HERO System Vehicle Sourcebook

 

A note on the HERO System Vehicle Sourcebook. It does not have any space vehicles in it, and as I recall Traveller is a future setting focused on space travel. The majority of the vehicles in the sourcebook are real world vehicles, with a few exceptions for superhero or near-future stuff. There's very little sci-fi vehicle support in there. However, the new 6e Star Hero, as well as the 5e Ultimate Vehicle, could both be very helpful.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: DEX for vehicles and HERO System Vehicle Sourcebook

 

Of course there may be occasions when a high-DEX superhero may want or need to pilot a mundane jet plane.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: DEX for vehicles and HERO System Vehicle Sourcebook

 

A note on the HERO System Vehicle Sourcebook. It does not have any space vehicles in it' date=' and as I recall Traveller is a future setting focused on space travel. The majority of the vehicles in the sourcebook are real world vehicles, with a few exceptions for superhero or near-future stuff. There's very little sci-fi vehicle support in there. However, the new 6e Star Hero, as well as the 5e Ultimate Vehicle, could both be very helpful.[/quote']

 

For Fifth Edition the Star HERO sourcebook, Spacers Toolkit, is crammed with examples of space vehicles. There are also several examples in each of the setting books for the line, Terran Empire and Alien Wars. And of course The Ultimate Vehicle has a few. I assume that's why nearly none are included in the Vehicle Sourcebook.

 

I expect when the 6E HERO System Vehicles comes out, it will include at least some space ships.

[azato]

Re: DEX for vehicles and HERO System Vehicle Sourcebook

 

My reason for asking about the Vehicle Guide was to handle things like combat between planes and tanks and such. I do have the spacers toolkit and such...but I was concerned about having more fleshed out or optional rules than found in just Book 2 of 6th ed.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: DEX for vehicles and HERO System Vehicle Sourcebook

 

I have a problem with "normal" characters with stats significantly higher than 20. In my campaigns, 20 is generally a hard cap for normals unless they have some reason whether technological or supernatural as to why their characteristic exceeds the maximum. In my wilder Heroic campaigns however, the cap is far less strict. This mainly depends on genre and tone of the campaign.

 

As far as vehicles with Dexterity scores higher than a human can normally achieve are concerned, this makes sense because there are some vehicles that are so responsive, that most humans cannot possibly drive/pilot that vehicle to it's true potential. Fighter Jets and race cars come to mind. Many science-fiction vehicles will probably fit into that category as well.

[Vondy]

Re: DEX for vehicles and HERO System Vehicle Sourcebook

 

I have a problem with "normal" characters with stats significantly higher than 20. In my campaigns' date=' 20 is generally a hard cap for normals unless they have some reason whether technological or supernatural as to why their characteristic exceeds the maximum. In my wilder Heroic campaigns however, the cap is far less strict. This mainly depends on genre and tone of the campaign.[/quote']

 

The problem, in my opinion, is that the strength chart creates a concrete metric for strength where 19-21 makes realistic sense as a hard cap while the other characteristics don't have concrete metrics. As a result, the scale for the other characteristics is relative. You can massage the range based on how granular you want it to be - and where you want characteristics based rolls to cap out at. But with strength, you either have to accept legendary (and even more than legendary) lifting ability if you want to go to 30 unless you change the strength chart. Like you I tend to cap characteristics out at 20, but for a niche stat I'll often let players purchase it to a level where they get the 14- or 15- roll. In those games I provide an alternate strength chart.

[Christopher]

Re: DEX for vehicles and HERO System Vehicle Sourcebook

 

You can massage the range based on how granular you want it to be

Then you will get a very relaxed range

 

But with strength' date=' you either have to accept legendary (and even more than legendary) lifting ability if you want to go to 30 unless you [i']change the strength chart[/i]. Like you I tend to cap characteristics out at 20, but for a niche stat I'll often let players purchase it to a level where they get the 14- or 15- roll. In those games I provide an alternate strength chart.

Take a look at APG I 6. It has an alternate STR chart that works better for heroic games. It set's 30 STR at 800 kg Lift (instead of 1600) and scales down from there.

Alternatively you can just take the table on 6E1 43 and half every lift capacity.

[Vondy]

Re: DEX for vehicles and HERO System Vehicle Sourcebook

 

 

 

Take a look at APG I 6. It has an alternate STR chart that works better for heroic games. It set's 30 STR at 800 kg Lift (instead of 1600) and scales down from there.

Alternatively you can just take the table on 6E1 43 and half every lift capacity.

 

I'm well aware its there. In fact, if you go back and look at the pre-6E discussion forum you'll find the alternate strength chart idea was suggested way-back-when. I've had one since before 6E.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: DEX for vehicles and HERO System Vehicle Sourcebook

 

The problem' date=' in my opinion, is that the strength chart creates a concrete metric for strength where 19-21 makes realistic sense as a hard cap while the other characteristics don't have concrete metrics. [/quote']

 

Indeed, and that is the metric by which I base all other primary characteristics.

 

As a result, the scale for the other characteristics is relative.

 

Not really. You just have to figure out the range at which Legendary begins. It's not difficult. The bell-curve of the 3D6 dice roll is a big indicator. The basic characteristic roll of 13 or less for a Characteristic of 20 gives one an 83% chance of success. This is with a skill roll in which the character has been fully trained, but has no long term experience with (I.e. Skill Levels or Bonus Skill points), that's pretty hefty. Lets tack on the bonus for performing a routine task using the skill (+5) and that gives the character an 18 or less (100%!) to perform their profession. This is which a basic characteristic of 20 and no experience spent on the skill but the base cost. On the flip side, performing a difficult task (-3) the character still has a 50% chance of success (10 or less) which is pretty good for performing a difficult task.

 

 

You can massage the range based on how granular you want it to be - and where you want characteristics based rolls to cap out at.

 

And I think that's one of the problems here. The perception of granularity with the system. Because a 3D6 based task resolution system has limited granularity, players are looking for ways to add granularity to this limited system and one of the ways of doing that is by expanding the characteristic ceiling. But it's a false cap. All it does is make additions to the skill roll less useful (before they max out the roll).

 

But with strength, you either have to accept legendary (and even more than legendary) lifting ability if you want to go to 30 unless you change the strength chart. Like you I tend to cap characteristics out at 20, but for a niche stat I'll often let players purchase it to a level where they get the 14- or 15- roll. In those games I provide an alternate strength chart.

 

I have no problem with the limited granularity of the system at hand and thus capping out characteristics at 20 is no problem for me. And in any case, I only consider 20 to be a "cap" so far as representing "normal" people are concerned. A characteristic above 20 is truly extraordinary and rare in the extreme (1 in a million) so individuals who are supposed to be "normal" shouldn't be running around with characteristics above 20. If your character is somehow above normal (as most P.C.'s tend to be) then have at it. Just be aware that your character will stand out.

[Susano]

Re: DEX for vehicles and HERO System Vehicle Sourcebook

 

I always figured DEX 23 planes and the like were piloted by people with +X DEX; Only When Piloting (-1/2).

[Christopher]

Re: DEX for vehicles and HERO System Vehicle Sourcebook

 

The basic characteristic roll of 13 or less for a Characteristic of 20 gives one an 83% chance of success. This is with a skill roll in which the character has been fully trained' date=' but has no long term experience with (I.e. Skill Levels or Bonus Skill points), that's pretty hefty. Lets tack on the bonus for performing a routine task using the skill (+5) and that gives the character an 18 or less (100%!) to perform their profession.[/quote']

These values are fine, but asume a -0 Difficutly Modifier. Let's take two other values:

11- Roll (average human trained professional) and +5 Routine modifier. 16- Roll or 98.15% success. Is that realistic? Yes it is. Every day on this planet millions of Adresses are entered into computers, millions of bolts are bolted, millions of tires change, thousands of of airplanes coordinated (civilian an military) - and all this without anyone failing his PS roll.

 

About the value of high Skills: Simple, they are a "Difficulty Buffer". Between 8- and 13- every single point difference is roughly 10% change in the "chance of success".

For example a difficutly roll (-2):

17- becomes 15-. Chance of success drops by 4.2%

15- becomes 13-. Chance of success drops by 11.5%.

13- becomes 11-. Chance of succes drops by 21.3%, but is still over 50%

11- becomes 9-. COS drops by 25% and is now under 50% (even under 40%).

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: DEX for vehicles and HERO System Vehicle Sourcebook

 

These values are fine, but asume a -0 Difficutly Modifier. Let's take two other values:

11- Roll (average human trained professional) and +5 Routine modifier. 16- Roll or 98.15% success. Is that realistic? Yes it is. Every day on this planet millions of Adresses are entered into computers, millions of bolts are bolted, millions of tires change, thousands of of airplanes coordinated (civilian an military) - and all this without anyone failing his PS roll.

 

Agreed. A routine use of a skill is after all, routine and thus should rarely fail.

 

About the value of high Skills: Simple, they are a "Difficulty Buffer". Between 8- and 13- every single point difference is roughly 10% change in the "chance of success".

For example a difficutly roll (-2):

17- becomes 15-. Chance of success drops by 4.2%

15- becomes 13-. Chance of success drops by 11.5%.

13- becomes 11-. Chance of succes drops by 21.3%, but is still over 50%

11- becomes 9-. COS drops by 25% and is now under 50% (even under 40%).

 

The value of high skill rolls is unquestioned. However your character doesn't need ridiculously high primary characteristic values to get there. (IMO, that's what Skill Levels are for anyway)

 

In any case, to bring this back to the original topic, I personally don't think it's necessary for the pilot/driver of a vehicle to exactly match the DEX (or SPD) of the vehicle they are controlling. Whats more important in many cases is the actual Piloting/Driving roll of the character. Another advantage which is severely underused IMO are Movement Skill Level (I like to call them Piloting Skill Levels) bought by the Pilot/Driver for use while operating their favored vehicle. They make operation/performance of the vehicle so much better it's ridiculous. This is something players considering making Pilot type characters should seriously investigate. They are how you adequately represent Han Solo, Max Genius, Starbuck type characters.